Is there a point where Crit>Ap??

[Symbioticon]

So, I've been looking around for a couple days, trying to find a reasonable answer... and no luck thus far.

Wondering, at what point, does it become viable to stack Crit [agi] over straight strength?

Currently sitting ~4600 AP unbuffed with 38%ish Crit

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...on&cn=Conselan if of any interest. And yes, i have a tank trinket equipped right now - its not usually there.

general train of thought was this:

get the 4pc t10 + http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50995

Have the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50858 sitting as something to toy with, and i'm hoping to grab the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50761 to swap out my current axe.

at that point, gemmed etc etc I could potentially have ~4500 AP and 45%ish Crit.

Looks good to me, just after some constructive feed back.

Cheers.

[Deleted]

STR always stays better than crit rating.

all our damage scales with STR, be it through AP, SP, weapon damage, or a combination of those, whereas holy vengeance and consecration don't scale with crit. in addition, most spells only single dip from crit, whereas many spells double- or even tripledip from STR.

[Symbioticon]

Ok, if that's the case, why are the Agi ashen rep ring and leather badge belt currently BiS until you can get much further into ICC?? And at the end of the day it's 2-gear slot items in leather plus the rep ring that are agility based. Everything else is maximizing the strength benefits the we get.

Perhaps I wasn't quite clear in my post: seeking a numerical stat point where it becomes more attractive to stack crit/agility over straight strength.

Day-to-day, yes stacking strength is the default answer to any Ret question. This, I hope, is not a day-to-day question.

[Vasz]

Ok, if that's the case, why are the Agi ashen rep ring and leather badge belt currently BiS until you can get much further into ICC?? And at the end of the day it's 2-gear slot items in leather plus the rep ring that are agility based. Everything else is maximizing the strength benefits the we get.

Perhaps I wasn't quite clear in my post: seeking a numerical stat point where it becomes more attractive to stack crit/agility over straight strength.

Day-to-day, yes stacking strength is the default answer to any Ret question. This, I hope, is not a day-to-day question.

Itemisation.

You should NEVER EVER stack Agi over crit raiting. Likewise, you should never stack crit over STR. Its also worrying me you call it AP, and not STR.

NEVER stack/gem for AGI.
NEVER stack/gem for AP

EDIT: noticed you're using the agi DPS ring ... not sure why.

[Deleted]

Strength items have extra stamina on them, which takes away from the budget of the rest of the item. It's not the Strength itself that is bad. Likewise, Agility items have less stamina and bonus attack power on them. This makes them more attractive due to better itemisation. It doesn't make the agility worth any more.

[Deleted]

the reason why we sometimes prefer AGI/crit items over AP items is because we often double-dip from those items. while leather and mail classes have 88 AGI for 1 crit, we have something like 54. this means we get more crit from the same item then f.e. a rogue.

[Vasz]

the reason why we sometimes prefer AGI/crit items over AP items is because we often double-dip from those items.

That i can understand. And now i seem to understand what the OP is trying to ask. "why is the agi version of the AV ring better than that str one".

Maybe Blizz should of changed the AGI dps ring to differ from the str one. Myabe Arp insted of crit?

I see your reasoning now.

[Symbioticon]

Itemisation.

You should NEVER EVER stack Agi over crit raiting. Likewise, you should never stack crit over STR. Its also worrying me you call it AP, and not STR.

NEVER stack/gem for AGI.
NEVER stack/gem for AP

EDIT: noticed you're using the agi DPS ring ... not sure why.

Str turns into AP. AP is the end result of strength. Ergo, Str = AP in terms of convention/conversation. I would never, never stack AP or straight AP... seen it *shudder* and as Nzall mentioned, the item budget for Str items vs Agi/AP ones is skewed. Just trying to take advantage of that Skew

Something I just recalled - there is already a rule-of-thumb point where splitting stats into Str+Crit is viable - when the socket set bonus is +4 Str per gem.

IE: Red+yellow socket w/ a socketed bonus of +4 str, using a Bold + Inscribed gem becomes a good idea.

Edit - thanks for the feed back thus far, and inb4 rawr or redcape's suggested: as of this moment, they are not opening from their zip properly. Having a conflict of programs. And rawr opened for me. But it doesn't work on the Mac

[Vasz]

Str turns into AP. AP is the end result of strength. Ergo, Str = AP in terms of convention/conversation.

True, however AP is NOT affected by talents or kings.

Agi ring with no gems - 231 ap (with kings)
Str ring with no gems - 217 ap (with kings)

The AGI ring also gains about 1% more crit.

Poor itemisation imho.

[Symbioticon]

Vasz, I know very well that the only thing that ever scales are our base stats. I'm not completely Old School, but been around the block a few times

Thankfully agi becomes almost 1=1 w/ kings vs crit [in terms of critical strike modifiers] And it's a bit of a wtf blizz on that ring. Its a great ring, just a head-scratcher to be sure.

[Requital]

You know I started to analyze my stats quite a bit more and I have come up with a formula for if an item is an upgrade with Agi/AP vs Strength, Relative stat values are very hard to determine but I finally got all mine figured out and for me to take an item with Agi/AP to equal the same as a Str based it I will use the Ashen Verdict ring as Example.

Ashen Band of Endless Might

vs


Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance

Estimated DPS base don my Relative Stat values

Might = 482.5 DPS

Vengeance = 420.11 DPS

Neither of these values take hit/gem/proc into account as I'm hit capped so the value isn't needed and I didn't feel like bloating the item value. It's really taken me a lot of data mining to figure the best stat value and I think I'm pretty close to it. At this time I have not exchanged my Rep ring because I wanted to calculate the DPS better before I did but yes I will be changing it.


My scale factors for stats for anyone who cares.

[Symbioticon]

Requital - what are the X and Y references? I'm going to guess that Y is DPS, but X?

[Alenko]

well considering the agi rep ring is listed as bis by the 2 best spreadsheets for ret and by EJ I think your stat wieghts might be off.

the difference between the agi ring and the str ring is that the agi ring (unbuffed) gives us 1.7% more crit over str ring and the str ring gives us like 80 ap over the agi ring (ungemmed and unbuffed). with kings its 1.9% crit for 115 or so ap. just by looking at this I can tell you the agi ring is better than the str ring.

or we could take the known stat weights (from ronarks faq or ej, they are the same)

Hit rating 240
Strength 212
Exp rating 153
Crit rating 117
Agility 113
Haste 103+10=113
Armor Pen 88
AP 84
SP 27

and since the proc and hit rating are the same we don't need to consider those as they will cancel out

Str ring: 212*99+117*59 = 27891
Agi ring: 117*59+113*88+84*135 = 28187

gemming will make these different of course (for the str ring a inscribed will increase that number by 4138 and for the agi ring a bold will increase its value by 4240) but even then the value for the agi ring is still higher after geming.

also to answer the op, agi/crit are never better than str in terms of geming (minus the inscribed amertrine exception). gearing is a different matter.

[Gungtah]

Basically when you have 0 crit rating

Past that, STR/AP will always be better

[Requital]

well considering the agi rep ring is listed as bis by the 2 best spreadsheets for ret and by EJ I think your stat wieghts might be off.

the difference between the agi ring and the str ring is that the agi ring (unbuffed) gives us 1.7% more crit over str ring and the str ring gives us like 80 ap over the agi ring (ungemmed and unbuffed). with kings its 1.9% crit for 115 or so ap. just by looking at this I can tell you the agi ring is better than the str ring.

or we could take the known stat weights (from ronarks faq or ej, they are the same)

Hit rating 240
Strength 212
Exp rating 153
Crit rating 117
Agility 113
Haste 103+10=113
Armor Pen 88
AP 84
SP 27

and since the proc and hit rating are the same we don't need to consider those as they will cancel out

Str ring: 212*99+117*59 = 27891
Agi ring: 117*59+113*88+84*135 = 28187

gemming will make these different of course (for the str ring a inscribed will increase that number by 4138 and for the agi ring a bold will increase its value by 4240) but even then the value for the agi ring is still higher after geming.

also to answer the op, agi/crit are never better than str in terms of geming. gearing is a different matter.

See that is the problem, Stat value is all opinion it's not fact it's what " someone " feels the value should be, There are so many DPS simulators out there and they all have somewhat different values to consider one person right over anyone else makes very little sense.

[Alenko]

See that is the problem, Stat value is all opinion it's not fact it's what " someone " feels the value should be, There are so many DPS simulators out there and they all have somewhat different values to consider one person right over anyone else makes very little sense.

no stat weights are fact, they represent a ratio to equivaliztize different stats through one common stat (in this case these stats show weights based around ap). these are the stat weights used to create the bis setups for ret and are THE stat weights for ret

go have a read through http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pa...n-paladin-faq/ and also visit elitist jerks.

[Requital]

no stat weights are fact, they represent a ratio to equivaliztize different stats through one common stat (in this case these stats show weights based around ap). these are the stat weights used to create the bis setups for ret and are THE stat weights for ret

go have a read through http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pa...n-paladin-faq/ and also visit elitist jerks.

Ok here is one for you, Who created the stat values that you are quoting?

[Deleted]

no stat weights are fact, they represent a ratio to equivaliztize different stats through one common stat (in this case these stats show weights based around ap). these are the stat weights used to create the bis setups for ret and are THE stat weights for ret

go have a read through http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pa...n-paladin-faq/ and also visit elitist jerks.

a big problem with stat weightings is that the gear used to compare stats to get them are hugely affecting the relative value of each stats so stat weightings are diferent for every single person unless they have exactly the same gear, and as such they should as most be treathed as a rough guidline.