Druid tank (King of the jungle vrs improved mangle

[littlepiggy]

You spec http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=16968
and http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48495

Suddenly you're a druid and not just a Warrior/DK/Paladin meat shield with fur.
Why be a druid if you're not going to play it as a druid.

you spec those to moves if you won't necessarily have a lot of boss tanking time and your raid needs dps, but there is no reason to other than "I'm not on the boss full time and want to do slightly more dps" if your guild/raid is competent, MSS will give much more benefit as you'll need some help with threat (note: i'm not saying they'd pull w/o it, but that it helps give you a lead in case something happens)

there is a reason the cookie cutter bear spec is what it is and not some hybrid spec that doesn't allow you to tank to your full potential

[axxey]

However given equal gear and competance there's zero reason to have a druid main tank when they're extrordinarily better OTs than any of the other classes.

There's zero mitigation loss, the utility gain is huge.

The post I quoted asked where those 5 points from MSS go, the post is asking a comparison with KotJ for threat purposes, the HUGE utility value of KotJ highly increases it's value(for me at least).
If you're doing things right threat isn't an issue, wear some more dps gear for trash if AoE is a problem, nothing stops you swapping gear around.

[littlepiggy]

However given equal gear and competance there's zero reason to have a druid main tank when they're extrordinarily better OTs than any of the other classes.

There's zero mitigation loss, the utility gain is huge.

if it's equal gear, you would lose mitigation by not having the druid tank as we have more armor and if the fight isn't completely on farm then more health makes it better. there is no fight where a druid tank has to do dps, unless your group isn't geared enough (ie: festergut), then you can work around it.. but eventually it'll be completely unnecessary. if you want to try and feel important by doing more dps and speccing into those, go for it but otherwise it's simply not needed

[axxey]

Your arguement is more dps is simply not needed.
My arguement is more threat is simply not needed unless you suck or are undergeared.

I'll agree with your more health arguement can be nice on new content and I'll counter with so is a free life.

[littlepiggy]

Your arguement is more dps is simply not needed.
My arguement is more threat is simply not needed unless you suck or are undergeared.

I'll agree with your more health arguement can be nice on new content and I'll counter with so is a free life.

dps threat scales faster than tank threat, so as the dps start's hitting BiS the threat output will be a lot different. it won't be that big of a deal, but it could change playstyles

also you're assuming you will always have tricks and/or misdirect, try holding threat against mages with their 18k burst and warlocks with their threat generation without any outside help. i had a hard time doing it when i was sitting in 245 gear vs full 264 mages on LK (10man), they had to hold back a little.. and we don't gain that much going from toc to icc gear in terms of threat unless you go from 245 to full 264+ (then you'll notice the difference)

[Richmond]

Clearly axxey is a KoTJ fan and does alot of OT'n.

Littlepiggy, i would'nt waste the effort of replying to any of his replies, he clearly doesn't understand that KoTJ is a trash talent and if he is in one of the two below situations,

No 4pc T10? Then you'll reduce your armor = Bad Bear
Do have 4pc T10? Then you'll end up using your 10% Damage reduction talent to increase your threat (But his whole argument is that threat should not be a problem in equal gear ???) - Very confusing, arguing with yourself in my eyes.

And speccing into http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=16968 is only useful on the occasional boss fight Festergut and...?, I've only done the queen and the Prof, not sure about the last 3 yet. But as you can see, its situational at best. MSS is amazing, the only thing i'm reconsidering after re-reading this post is speccing into Feral Aggression for raids, sticking with Ferocity for HC's. But it'll only be a trial (We dont have a Ret pala and i've never really considered the true value of this talent)

[Quehn]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...LAL,OHNq,11623

If you have a prot warrior in your raid and tier10 4 set

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...ICY,OHNq,11623

If you do not have a prot warrior in your raid and not tier10 4 set

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...RCr,OHNq,11623

If you have a prot warrior in your raid and tier10 4 set




Furor is a nice talent but useless if tanking the entire fight and not switching in and out of bear form. Even if you switch alot like on Sindragosa, then you shouldn't be needing it since it's a very small initial boost in rage, and isn't gonna end up doing that much compared to the amount of damage you are skipping out on.

You shouldn't have King of the Jungle if you don't have Tier10 4 set if you have since Enrage is not very useful if it decreases your armor. Atleast I only use it to grant me the initial rage, then remove the buff (I use a macro for that) and then taunt on bosses like Goremauk the Impaler or Thorim or something like that.

Imp. Mangle is better then King of the Jungle because you might have to use the Enrage when using tier10 4 set defensively and not offensively, making the damage less attractive. Since a percentage increase in damage over a set amount of time is often very situational.
Whereas Imp. Mangle is much less situational, and more of a general dps / tps increase.

[Xstar]

I know KotJ looks tempting since we're hitting enrage more in ICC bc of T10 but it still is a really lackluster talent imo. Either you're going to want an extra CD available to mitigate incoming damage or you want a quick threat boost but rarely have I noticed that I needed both at the same time. I'd much rather have it available for use as an emergcency CD not have it when I needed it for a small threat increase.

Thats just my 2c but if you are tanking Festergut first and get some kitty time on him through the fight it'd be nice to have. Would be nice for soloing but not really something that I think I'd see a good return on my investment for 2 points.

[bavarcarus]

I wouldn't take KotJ over imp mangle.

The only TPS problem I have is in 10 man when I opt for real kings over might, a warlock with the same 6k+ gearscore as me generates more tps than me sometimes. In 25m ICC the tps meter on omen hovers around 10k and I use enrage once at the beginning to get me going as a threat CD, then as a mitigation cd from then on.

I'm not really understanding the part where everyone says if you use it as a threat CD you can't use it as a mitigation one. When you pop it for mit you still are getting a threat boost.

[Morganaugh]

Take 2 pts out of Furor and put them into KOTJ.

KOTJ is the first talent that will get replaced since it is non-essential, I was 3 pts in but went down to 2 when Primal Gore was introduced. But 5 pts in Furor is far more unnessiary then KOTJ is, I suggest getting pts for KOTJ from there.

[Tharkkun]

If you're having TPS problems then your rogues or hunters should be misdirecting and tricking you at the start. KOTJ isn't gonna fix that.

[Cheezee]

King of the Jungle + Berserk after you've applied a lacerate can give you a nice threat jump on overzealous DPS. I use it on Blood Queen where nobody bothers to MD/tricks me.

[Fojos]

I'd just take 2 points out of furor and get rid of improved mangle and go 0/55/16 if I were you.

[hoot80]

If you want a threat set just throw on the new Mangle glyph and make sure you are 3/3 in Improved Mangle. 10% extra damage on mangle is probably gonna be pretty nice for threat generation when paired with Improved Mangle.

[Slavemaker]

Take 2 points out of Furor and put them in King of the Jungle.

[Kreth]

Er... trash talent? Seriously?

The case Richmond seems to be totally neglecting is the pull. Yes, you want maximum threat on the pull. Yes, you want damage reduction on the pull. Yes, a poor pull can cause a wipe. KotJ and the 4pc bonus are a pretty amazing combination for this. Whether it's worth picking up is a different question and will depend on your specific raid and other talents, but I raid with the confidence that even if the rogues mess up their tricks or some dps goes crazy with lucky crits or whatnot, my pulls are going to be solid.

KotJ is also an extraordinary talent for OT kittydps. Your raid dps will benefit from you having it during at least festergut, sindragosa, and perhaps LK.

p.s. yes, shredding attacks+primal gore are core tanking talents as well.

[Fojos]

p.s. yes, shredding attacks+primal gore are core tanking talents as well.

2 less rage cost on Lacerate is pretty horrible.

[Myth]

I wouldn't take either of them. If you have 4pc T10 it turns enrage into a defensive cooldown. Taking KotJ makes it an offensive cooldown. Just not worth it. I haven't had improved mangle since TBC, its not that huge imo.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...ipt+Upon+Death

I enjoy my spec I have for tanking. I am currently on some Top 20s in TPS for wowmetersonline. Give it a shot and see how you like it.

[Richmond]

Er... trash talent? Seriously?

The case Richmond seems to be totally neglecting is the pull. Yes, you want maximum threat on the pull. Yes, you want damage reduction on the pull. Yes, a poor pull can cause a wipe. KotJ and the 4pc bonus are a pretty amazing combination for this. Whether it's worth picking up is a different question and will depend on your specific raid and other talents, but I raid with the confidence that even if the rogues mess up their tricks or some dps goes crazy with lucky crits or whatnot, my pulls are going to be solid.

KotJ is also an extraordinary talent for OT kittydps. Your raid dps will benefit from you having it during at least festergut, sindragosa, and perhaps LK.

p.s. yes, shredding attacks+primal gore are core tanking talents as well.

I'm not neglecting anything. When was the last time you have a problem with the pull on a boss? Even without ToTT or MD, you are the first thing to hit the boss: Mangle, FFF and start stacking Lacerate (All of which are macro'd to Maul) and if your still having threat problems then you either A. Use Berserk, or B. tell your DPS not to pop all there CD's on the pull. Simple?

There is a clear split between the druid community on this subject, we just need to agree to disagree. KoTJ is a non tanking talent, period, the tooltip states it all "Reduces base armor by x%", 4pc T10 changed nothing! Because, and for the last time! You will never need to use them at exactly the same time. Well, with the exception of this guy i've quoted, who has trouble on the pull. :-X

4p T10 made an otherwise useless ability, amazing. It made it a Defensive Cooldown, not a threat increasing ability. If you dont get more than enough threat from the 2pc T10 then you may as well hang up your tanking pants and go feral DPS or something

[Cheezee]

I'm not neglecting anything. When was the last time you have a problem with the pull on a boss?

4p T10 made an otherwise useless ability, amazing. It made it a Defensive Cooldown, not a threat increasing ability. If you dont get more than enough threat from the 2pc T10 then you may as well hang up your tanking pants and go feral DPS or something

When was the last time you went up against people doing 11k+ dps without being bitten by Blood Queen?

Enrage was never a useless ability, you simply had to know when to use it.

Honestly, how did you people ever survive before you had 2 damage reducing cool downs?