How to shorten the LFG queue for DPS

[krasgoth]

Again, I hate to flail wildly at a dead horse, but I've had a completely different experience in all my years of tanking things. I've long ago lost track of how many times dps has said "Nice tanking man " "bomb ass tank" "crazy troll tank !" "Frigging crazy pulling man i love it" or any number of platitudes regarding how I tank things. As a result, I can't even remember the last time a dps has actually pulled a group for me (If our group is 75% dead I'm already on the move). Your "tanking skill" is directly related to the people in the instance with you, whether YOU think you're a DAMN good tank or not is meaningless if the group is so antsy they're tossing tricks packs at you.

This is another reason I don't understand people who post "I am an ICC25 geared tank, yadda yadda yadda and I want recognition for when I queue because my gear should carry me and dps is dumb /thread" . I just don't get it. Here, for an example, here's my crappy paladin alt.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...rd&cn=Kelannar

Kelannar the friggin Kingslayer. Kelannar, the guy who healed 3d sarth back in the day when it was hard with a freaking stupid Titansteel guardian and hateful pvp gear. Any monkey can acquire his gear, couple of badge items and some ICC stuff, hell, he's using PVP bracers to tank Arthas with. Doing the right thing, even a Kelannar can pull groups and groups of mobs in heroics without any worry in the world. If you are seriously ICC25 geared and are having issues with tanking heroics with WHATEVER the dps does, it's possible the dps isn't the issue with what you're trying to do. It's possible you're tanking things wrong, slowly, or something else.

The singular problem I can have with him on threat is if people are using specs that have no threat reduction and inane damage (Frost dks doing 10k dps) or inane damage with people who don't spec into threat reduction (not that I know of anyone like that) such as arcane mages who go single target as I try to aoe tank. Again, if this happens, I just switch off and hit that target instead. Same with my bear, same with my warrior.

Tanks will take flak. I had a Heroic HoR group tell me to leave as soon as I zoned into the instance (?) for no reason, then yell at me through the whole instance despite everything going incredibly smooth. But those are just random idiots, and they'd yell at everyone they saw, not just me. For the most part, far and away, people are respectful to tanks, not just because they are tanks, but because they are good tanks. If they do not compliment you on being a good tank, its possible that you aren't being the best tank.



Edit: cut quote. --Sunshine

[jpwkeeper]

How did you misconstrue the post from what you linked so badly to where DPS should have to lick the ground on which a tank stands upon?

How could I? With difficulty. How much difficulty? Had I actually done it I could answer that question, but as it stands I would only be speculating.

but I'm certainly not going out of my way to praise another player for simply doing what they rolled their class to do.

Because two kind words are so expensive, and you are obviously a frugal fellow.

Seriously guys, when did being civil to each other become such a chore?

[Citaxis]

Most of this thread is, unfortunately, part of the problem. It seems to have become "tanks vs. healers vs. DPS", which is completely wrong. The point of a 5-man group is to work together, rather than saying "all tanks suck" or "all healers are assholes" or "all DPS are complete morons". There are bad tanks. There are asshole healers. There are complete moron DPS. But the point of the group is to try and work together to accomplish something, even if the accomplishment is only "succeeded in getting two Frost emblems without ragequitting the game".

And this problem goes all ways. There is a LOT of abuse to tanks, despite many of our best efforts to make things go as smoothly as possible. Healers put effort into keeping everyone topped off and not losing people to AoE, yet rarely get anything other than a "WTF HEEL N GOGOGOGOGOGO" from the rest of the group. DPS who screw up get yelled at by everyone, but when they do everything perfectly, they get completely ignored.

Personally, I've started a one-man crusade to make my entire battlegroup more pleasant to PuG randoms in. When I tank, I compliment the healer on doing an excellent job keeping everyone topped off, I whisper each and every hunter and rogue who use MD/TotT personally to thank them very much for taking the time and effort to use those things, and thank extremely-geared DPS for taking it easy and not pulling everything in the world off of me and making the healer's job more miserable.

When I heal, I compliment the tank on his/her aggro-holding abilities off of DPS, I compliment DPS on letting the tank do their job and not being completely obsessed with meters, and also whisper rogues and hunters to thank them for their TotT and MD on the tank.

When I'm DPSing, I do my best to help the tank any way I can (stun-positioning the runners on the warlock, Hamstring on wanderers/Pummel on casters on the warrior), apologize profusely when I pull due to excessive threat and/or unfortunately-placed AoE, I whisper the healer and tell them to let my sorry rear die if I pull something stupid, and, once again, whisper rogues and hunters to thank them for aggro assistance on the tank.

Whether they mean anything or not, Heroics are your chance to work together as a team to see exactly how quickly AND smoothly you can tear through 'em. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I always feel a little bit better about myself every time I see a "Why thank you " from someone in a PuG.

[jpwkeeper]

Most of this thread is, unfortunately, part of the problem. It seems to have become "tanks vs. healers vs. DPS", which is completely wrong.

Not really what this thread is about, although a lot of people have tried to turn it into that.

However, I'm not addressing the larger problem of overall douch-baggery. In this instance I'm trying to address how we, as DPS and to a much lesser extent Healers, can shorten our queues through civility.

I had hoped people could be goaded into doing what they probably should be doing anyway if they could see a direct improvement in their own lives as a result, rather than the rewards being more abstract.

You are correct, douch-baggery is not limited to any role. But that's a bigger issue, and I'm taking somewhat of a smaller bite with this thread.

[davesurfer]

@ krasgoth - I actually don't think we are that far off in thinking (except the people we run into). I don't think new tanks should be coddled, BUT a 5900 GS DPS vs a 4500 geared tank is a threat gearing issue. As long as a 5900 GS DPS is going 100% all out, he/she WILL pull aggro on AE pulls.

I run at least 5-10 randoms a day. And 9/10 are just fine, but 1/10 has one of "those" That is 1/30 DPSers, small % but enough to be a pain. On Fiday and Sat nights it goes to about 5/10. Booze? Kids? Not sure why. My 5900 GS pally, my 5700 alt pally and 5300 druid have no issue with those "tools". I can get them back if they pull early. But my 4500 GS DK will have issues.

No one can deny that a ICC 25 GS DPS can pull off of an Ulduar geared tank when they pull aggro first.

I also DPS on my Mage/Hunter/DK. I look at the tank gear and adjust my approach based on their gear. That is what a good DPS should do. If he is 4500 or less, I give him a second to grab aggro. If he is 5K plus, I go 100%.

[Fenixhart]

Actually, i'm fairly often 2nd-3rd on dps meters, and it doesn't take me that much longer to down mobs, you're redundant, we're carrying you.

You're so full of yourself I'm surprised you haven't Choked on your own arm.

[Geekzilla]

So... only DPS are rude? Tanks and healers never are rude, or constantly complaining, or demeaning to other?

It feels like it, but only because 60% of any given 5-man are DPS, so you're more likely to run into raging DPSers. It also seems that most anger is directed towards tank/heals, but I think that's for a similar reason, it's easier to carry one bad DPS than a bad tank or bad healer.

On the other hand, I've played all roles in 80 heroics, and tanking is the one that I refuse to do unless it's a guild run. It seems to be the role people are most judgemental about. If half the DPSers that rage at the tanks saying that they're a better tank on their main than the current tank actually had a tank, there'd be no tank shortage.

I wouldn't mind catching flack as a tank or a healer if the flack were in any way constructive, or even right as much as half the time, but it's generally neither useful nor accurate. Not that rage against DPSers is any more likely to be constructive or accurate, however. I once saw a DPSer rage after the tribunal that the tank wasn't holding enough aggro and that the healer was slacking because his health got low several times. I linked a meter showing that 80% of the damage he took in that entire fight was from standing in the fire. Nope, not his problem, he continued to rage. I'm not saying that everyone that rages is wrong, but they're wrong far more often than their ego would let them suspect.

Me, I don't rage. If I can't say something constructive, then I don't say anything at all. And that goes for rage from or towards any role. When I heal or tank, I don't act like the group is my own little fiefdom. If there's a problem and constructive criticism doesn't work, I'll just say that the group isn't working out. It only reaches that far once a month or so, usually the problem rage quits before we give up.

And yes, I do compliment people that I think did a good job. I'm always willing to consider any advice that contains actual advice. I will say though, that I have to disagree with Halicia. If someone is doing something wrong because they don't know any better, then pointing that out to them and suggesting improvements is fine, it's how some people learn, though if they get their back up, I'm not going to push it.

[krasgoth]

@davesurfer - No, I don't doubt it, your post was thought out pretty well. And yes, of course, if I go slug Metamorphisized SoCs into packs of mobs that a freshly geared heroic tank, then yeah, I'll probably pull aggro, but it's how you (as a tank) deal with it that matters.

Its all a matter of adjusting though. Yeah, I hate the mages that blink ahead as I charge with my bear, pop arcane power and start exploding before my first swipe has even gone off, but those people are few and far between. You have 2 options with them:

1) Let them die. This is a satisfying option, but it will probably get you abuse. Then again, if the person gives you abuse, they're probably a stupid player anyways.

2) Pick up the things most likely to kill them. This is usually what I do, gives them enough of a reason to think "Oh, shit, I should probably not be doing what I'm doing".

[Citaxis]

@jpwkeeper
I apologize, I didn't mean you specifically made the topic to be that way, that's just kind of what it turned into, starting with a "What? Being civil is kissing a tank's ass, and tanks don't deserve it!", getting replied with "You ungrateful little whelp, DPS is completely useless!" and turning into a giant smear-fest depending on role.

I had hoped people could be goaded into doing what they probably should be doing anyway if they could see a direct improvement in their own lives as a result, rather than the rewards being more abstract.

In relation to my above post, that's why it's a one-man crusade . It really doesn't matter the role, or even whether they play the game or not. People are assholes. And yes, whoever reads this, this could include YOU. The less you think it does, the more likely you really are. If I don't try to make things as pleasant as possible after the runs I've been in, my blood pressure will probably literally cause my head to explode in the middle of another H-HoR run.

[Xarantaur42]

If you have issues with long DPS queues waiting for heroics, here are some simple tips:

1) Get Achievements - Pass the time by farming reputation, fishing in the Dalaran fountain, scaling up your Cooking, and the like.
2) Alt+Tab - The Internet is a beautiful thing. Endless possibilites, since the Internet is for... >_>
3) Stretch/Smoke/Drink/Relieve Yourself - Get some blood pumping through those veins and whatever fix you need before you're forced to sit for another hour without moving.
4) Roll a Healer/Tank Class - If it bothers you that much, you're obviously not the most patient person and (more than likely) get easily irritated when you wipe from bad pulls/bad luck. Make room for other DPS in the queue, as a general courtesy to the rest of the community.

[hoot80]

I am an ICC 25 Geared tank and I don't have issues with threat or tanking massive amounts of adds. I do have issues with other people running ahead pulling crap while I'm still tanking the 6 pack of adds that they just pulled onto me 2 seconds ago. Are you saying that it's okay now for dps to just run around and pull whatever they want to pull, single target whichever target is out of your range, and you as the tank should just be happy to be a part of such an awesome team? It's not a question of whether or not I'm a good tank. I get plenty of compliments and "great job mr. bear" and "that's the fastest I've ever finished this instance" without people doing all the pulling for me. That's my job, I don't go kitty after you pull and let you tank while I try to dps so stop trying to do my job and do yours better.

In the end it's about teamwork, but at the same time each of us has to do our JOB in the instance. The DPSers job is to damage targets. My job as the tank is to make the pull, get initial aggro and hold that aggro til everything is dead while still maintaining enough damage mitigation and raw health to try not to burden the healers (passively through my gear and also through smart usage of cooldowns). I do my job and I do it very well. The people that go out of their way to do my job when I am doing nothing wrong are the ones that piss me off to the point where I don't want to run with pugs anymore.

Edit: cut quote. --Sunshine

[Lucifra]

These rules should be renamed the great book of DPS-kharma and stickied, I'm sick and tired of the dps nowadays.

I used to play a warlock myself and I'm really fed up with the kind of players that play dps, none of them uses any threat related skills or defensive cooldowns and all they do is tell you to go faster or complain about whatever.

I can tank HOL in under 15 mins with 3.5k on average from the dpsers, so obviously there is nothing wrong with my pulling speed, yet I constantly see people telling me to "gogo", even in raids.

I don't tell healers to "heal me!" every time I take damage, I don't tell you to "ok now start dps!" everytime I pull something, so why would you tell me when to pull?....

I'd just like it if dps did a few simple things

1: Stop blaming others for everything that goes bad, if you run into a group and open with burst aoe than it's nót the tank's or the healer's fault that you're dead.

2: Use your defensive cooldowns and watch your damn threat, it still happens constantly that people pull aggro on long fights, that should nót happen and if you do it than you're a crappy dps. Blizzard gave almost every class a threat drop, use it, use your bubble, use your ice block, use your misdirect and ToTT. Just because your role is the easiest doesn't give you an excuse to slack off.

3: Shut your yap, I constantly see people whining about the smallest of things, none of the dps seem to realise how much more stresfull it is to be a tank than it is to be a dps because here's something to think about: A group can only be as good as the guy who's tanking.

The tank is the one who decides whether a group is successful or not and as such he gets blamed for everything that goes wrong, example: About a year ago I was tanking naxx25, it was 11:30 so I was pretty tired and any tank can tell you that kel'thuzad is one of the most boring fights in game. The main tank dies from a void zone so I pick up the boss with a quick taunt from the other side of the room, a few minutes later I also died from a void zone for being tired.

about 15 people were already dead by then, but guess who gets the blame? You guessed it, I did. Even though 8 others died from a void zone and 7 more from frost tomb it was my death in a void zone that "caused" the whipe, and that's just nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, I like being the tank, but it is a lot more stresfull than being dps, respect that.

Ow yes, and also, do not whine at other people if you can't perform properly yourself, if you can't do the appropriate dps for your ilvl or constantly die from stuff than try looking at yourself instead of what the tank does wrong, just because every little mistake he makes affects the entire raid where yours only affect you or your dps.

</rant>

[Whitcher]

http://toomanyannas.com/warrior/tanking-perceptions/

tldr;
"I would rather whine on a blog no one reads, than be good at what I do, realize no one can move without me, and earn easy and free badges"

I wish I could tank. Fast queues, tell the dps to step it up, wait around if I didn't care about the crappy job they're doing... jeez sounds HORRIBLE

If you're a plate wearing dps in ICC gear, you can tank 5 mans. I've done it several times with a guildie/friend healing and three pug dps.

[GrodinLB]

I agree with the OP. I've stopped tanking unless a guildie wants to get a quick random in. I wait the 10 minutes or whatever it takes to queue dps and do a daily or two while I wait.

[anyaka21]

The thing that a lot of 'geared' people need to understand is that typically they are only doing 1 run a day for their frost badges. Meaning that if people are looking or a gear matching system, it could realistically take twice to 3 times longer to actually get in an random daily than it does now.

Thus a 6k gear score toon, to get a faster queue, should just suck it up and help people along, especially with a half hour timer how.

I'd personally love to see a gear matching tool in the lfg system, meaning that Blizzard would implement a system where people could be matched with similarly geared toons, say 5500-6000 gear score or whatever Blizzard uses internally. I'd be willing wager that queues would go from 10 mins to 30 mins if they did this. Add that I'd love it if it was an option and not a necessity. You could queue for gear matching or be able to take 1st available.

[krasgoth]

Many words, snipped so Sunshine doesn't have to.

*bashes dead horse over the skull again*

Phew, that felt good. Now where was I..

Oh yeah. I still have yet to see the dps who "runs ahead to a group of mobs and pulls them onto you" while you're actively tanking 6 fullhealth mobs. That simply doesn't happen. This is how I envision what you and multiple others say when you complain about this scenario:

I run into Heroic UP. I grab the first 4 mobs, and the pack inside to make up 7 mobs, and start to tank them. Suddenly, an Elemental shaman uses his rocketboots and pops elemental mastery, running himself 20 yards ahead, then pops a speed potion, popping chain lightning on the next pack while we're tanking the mobs, then running back and saying "GOGOGOOGOGOGO TANK".

THAT. NEVER. HAPPENS.

If you are pulling large groups and staying active, dps does not blatantly be visible assbags and try to pull large groups back to you. If you are pulling right, the next group is at least 20 yards ahead of you and *you* are the closest one to be able to pull, not the ranged dps who is behind you. When the mobs start to die, you start to move, don't wait, standing there as two 25% mobs try to hit you, get going and get the next group going.

Again, even if the scenario you described happens, what's the difference? You pick the shit up. Like you said, it's your job, even if the dps did that (Which they don't, unless you're pulling slow) and what are you going to do? Launch into a tirade about how they can't do it? Or tank the stuff and then never see them again?

[Shadowysaint]

Tanks are there to hold aggro and to not get crit. DPS are there to not pull aggro and to crit the enemy to death. They aren't there to shout at people, abuse them and generally act like an asshole.

It is sort of a synergy of not pulling aggro, omgad i pulled aggro /cast iceblock, omgad taunt.

[krabork]

If a tank couldn't queue and have a group 2 seconds later...
If a DPS queued and didn't have to wait 15 minutes...
If a raid leader wasn't always spamming chat... "LFM Need 1 Tank and GTG"

Then I'd believe tanks weren't special. But if they're always needed, and always short, and always hard to find... well, I think by definition that makes them special. Supply and demand folks, that's all it is. If there were tons of good tanks to go around, they'd be nicer because they'd have to be.

Don't like it? Roll a tank or STFU.

[Silphier]

I'm not 100% sure bout this, but when I geared my newly dinged hunter and rogue, I started off with 3000k gs something
and instead of having 30m queue on my 5.8kgs dk I had 2-5mins :O
later on after farming bout 200emblems and buying stuff queue whent up as normal..
I dunno if its only my battlegroup who is fucked up or not ;p

[Zilas]

As a tank, when people yell at me for doing something wrong I just tell them to gtfo and wait for the 15 (now 30) minute debuff and queue up again. It usually shuts them up, if it doesn't I vote kick. And it's usually passed because everyone sees that they are an asshat