Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[troxan]

I think I just came...!

Finally, I mean FINALLY I can actually raid with the 10 people I really enjoy playing and hanging around with, and who are exceptionally good at what they do.

Instead of raiding with these 10 awesome people and 15 retards whos learning curve is 5 times that of an average human being.

I guess our plans for a 10man-core-raiding-guild in Cata are gettin brighter and brighter!

Sorry if I'm missing something here.. But what is stopping you from doing that now?

Cause now he cant show how good and awesome :... he really is in the gear that drops in the 10 mans. BUT in cata can he run around enjoying the game more when he glows with awesomeness.

[dvdconway]

Everyone saying "25-mans are just 10 smart people and 15 people being carried" have obviously never been in a 25man raid for anything farther than maybe Normal Festergut. If just one DPS fucks up early on Heroic Blood Queen Lana'thel, you won't meet the enrage. If one healer slips during the last 30% of Heroic Deathbringer Saurfang, a mark dies and it's a wipe. If one caster fails at getting out of the raid for his stacking debuff aoe in Heroic Sindragosa, it's a wipe. If one spore'd player is an idiot on Heroic Festergut, there won't be enough stacks and it's a wipe. If one ranged gets too close to the melee on Heroic Rotface, the melee will get the vomit debuff and it's a wipe.

Seriously, stop talking about things you don't know about. 25man hardcore Heroic raiding is not an easy carry fest. It requires attention, communication, and skill from each person in the raid, and each person is just as liable as the next to screw everything up. This is what 25man raiders like. They like that things can't be walked over and they like that 25 players have to play in unison. They like the endless wiping until they finally get it down. They like the effort and the trial. And most importantly, they like the recognition for going through all that. These things naturally make 25-man more difficult than 10-man. It will always be more easy to handle Defiles on Lich King in 10-man than it is to handle Defiles in 25-man. Doing it right in 25-man is what deserves a rewad

What is recognition and reward? A nice 310% mount. Oh, wait 310% will be given to everyone in Cataclysm, I guess we'll just get a special model that does nothing else. How about some nice tier gear that no one else will have? Oh, wait, oh no, tier gear has been free loot since Naxx, but here as a consolation prize you'll get different colored tier gear. Well, at least I have this awesome axe I can only get out of 25-player --OH NO!-- never mind. Guess you'll have to settle for a title that no one will ever see if they play with their camera zoomed out, like 99% of WoW players.

Finally. Someone with sense.

[Naydie]

Nice change.

[Lassing]

I LOVE THIS

Finally I can play with my irl friends without missing out on the loot that 25 man raiders get

[Uvorix]

Only good thing i can think of that could come out of this..... more time to split between alts...otherwise i hate it

[Crymsin]

This doesn't kill 25 mans at all. 25 mans will still be for epeen. It's just that every 25 man guild will do 10s to farm up gear (like trinkets) until the full heroic version of everything is unlocked.

There is no point in doing 25 man off the bat. If you consider ICC, if 10m were to drop 25m gear, and hm LK weren't out, who wouldn't do 2 10 mans instead to farm dbw's, dfo's, fang and phylactary's? Plain and simple.

We'll see how well they tune 10 m, if its just less dmg, less health that's pretty stupid.

[Ignis]

Some things you have to keep in mind for 10 vs 25 man raid

Path of the Titans
Faster to lvl the path in 25 man then in 10 man? More mats/Drops/glyphs from 25 man?(Archology)

New Guild system
Faster to lvl your guild in 25 man then in 10? More rewards as a guild in 25 man.
Get better gear/encahnts from crafting via the guild/prof system.

[Jaqen Hghar]

Everyone saying "25-mans are just 10 smart people and 15 people being carried" have obviously never been in a 25man raid for anything farther than maybe Normal Festergut. If just one DPS fucks up early on Heroic Blood Queen Lana'thel, you won't meet the enrage. If one healer slips during the last 30% of Heroic Deathbringer Saurfang, a mark dies and it's a wipe. If one caster fails at getting out of the raid for his stacking debuff aoe in Heroic Sindragosa, it's a wipe. If one spore'd player is an idiot on Heroic Festergut, there won't be enough stacks and it's a wipe. If one ranged gets too close to the melee on Heroic Rotface, the melee will get the vomit debuff and it's a wipe.

Seriously, stop talking about things you don't know about. 25man hardcore Heroic raiding is not an easy carry fest. It requires attention, communication, and skill from each person in the raid, and each person is just as liable as the next to screw everything up. This is what 25man raiders like. They like that things can't be walked over and they like that 25 players have to play in unison. They like the endless wiping until they finally get it down. They like the effort and the trial. And most importantly, they like the recognition for going through all that. These things naturally make 25-man more difficult than 10-man. It will always be more easy to handle Defiles on Lich King in 10-man than it is to handle Defiles in 25-man. Doing it right in 25-man is what deserves a rewad

What is recognition and reward? A nice 310% mount. Oh, wait 310% will be given to everyone in Cataclysm, I guess we'll just get a special model that does nothing else. How about some nice tier gear that no one else will have? Oh, wait, oh no, tier gear has been free loot since Naxx, but here as a consolation prize you'll get different colored tier gear. Well, at least I have this awesome axe I can only get out of 25-player --OH NO!-- never mind. Guess you'll have to settle for a title that no one will ever see if they play with their camera zoomed out, like 99% of WoW players.

Getting the same reward in 25m Heroic raiding as you would get in 10m Heroic raiding is a slap in the face and quite honestly an insult to everyone who has put forth the time and dedication of hardcore 25m raiding this expansion. There is no reason to do 25-mans in Cataclysm. Badges become obsolete after about the second month of that tier. 25mans and 25man guilds will be dead.

Dude.

Chill.

It's a fricken game. No need to get upset, it's not like you'll look back on this and say "Killing X in WoW was one of the crowning achievements of my life," or "Son, when I finally got the Carpenter's Grasp off of Deathwing, it was like winning the Olympic Gold."

And if you do, that's just sad.

[Ninjamerc]

I'll fucking play Cataclysm for sure! <3 10man raiding has, and will allways be more fun.

[Frozenbeef]

this picture sums up people complaining

[Luph]

If they really are going to go through with this they should just kill 25-man raiding. There is no point. If this goes through then there is not a doubt in my mind that 25-man raiding will die off and become a very marginal minority. They will just be wasting development time by making two versions.

[Paskgotsheal]

So for loot, it has to work like this

1 drop per boss from 10 man (yes just 1.)

3 from 25 man

If they decided to go with the current route, (2 from 10 man) They would need at least 6 items PER BOSS to drop for it to be relevant. People would get geared way to quick, ergo I think it's going to be set up like above

That being said, I love change, can't wait to see how they do this.

[troxan]

Everyone saying "25-mans are just 10 smart people and 15 people being carried" have obviously never been in a 25man raid for anything farther than maybe Normal Festergut. If just one DPS fucks up early on Heroic Blood Queen Lana'thel, you won't meet the enrage. If one healer slips during the last 30% of Heroic Deathbringer Saurfang, a mark dies and it's a wipe. If one caster fails at getting out of the raid for his stacking debuff aoe in Heroic Sindragosa, it's a wipe. If one spore'd player is an idiot on Heroic Festergut, there won't be enough stacks and it's a wipe. If one ranged gets too close to the melee on Heroic Rotface, the melee will get the vomit debuff and it's a wipe.

Seriously, stop talking about things you don't know about. 25man hardcore Heroic raiding is not an easy carry fest. It requires attention, communication, and skill from each person in the raid, and each person is just as liable as the next to screw everything up. This is what 25man raiders like. They like that things can't be walked over and they like that 25 players have to play in unison. They like the endless wiping until they finally get it down. They like the effort and the trial. And most importantly, they like the recognition for going through all that. These things naturally make 25-man more difficult than 10-man. It will always be more easy to handle Defiles on Lich King in 10-man than it is to handle Defiles in 25-man. Doing it right in 25-man is what deserves a reward.

What is recognition and reward? A nice 310% mount. Oh, wait 310% will be given to everyone in Cataclysm, I guess we'll just get a special model that does nothing else. How about some nice tier gear that no one else will have? Oh, wait, oh no, tier gear has been free loot since Naxx, but here as a consolation prize you'll get different colored tier gear. Well, at least I have this awesome axe I can only get out of 25-player --OH NO!-- never mind. Guess you'll have to settle for a title that no one will ever see if they play with their camera zoomed out, like 99% of WoW players.

Getting the same reward in 25m Heroic raiding as you would get in 10m Heroic raiding is a slap in the face and quite honestly an insult to everyone who has put forth the time and dedication of hardcore 25m raiding this expansion. There is no reason to do 25-mans in Cataclysm. Badges become obsolete after about the second month of that tier. 25mans and 25man guilds will be dead.

THIS.

[Fenixdown]

The things I see with this change, both positive and negative.

1. This will greatly improve guild teamwork. Basically, most average or above average guilds will choose one focus, 10s or 25s, and stick with that. This will allow guilds to have more fun in their preferences. In other words, no longer will you see a "10-man guild recruiting to work up to 25" or a "25-man guild that does 10-man on off nights". Pick one, stick with it, recruit for it specifically. This can also lead to growth of hardcore guilds to build two teams of raiders, one for 25-man and one for 10-man.

2. This will also get rid of, at least in part, the "QQQ epics iz too ezmode" whining. You won't be able to do 47 different versions of raids to try and gear up. You do ONE version, and hope to get the items you need. Also, since loot resources will be decreased in 10-man from 25-man, it should make gearing opportunity about equal in both (or it could continue to reduce the ability to gear in 25s specifically, since current loot tables are 3 drops in 25 and 2 in 10).

3. This will not get rid of the "QQQ everyone looks the same, WTB special snowflake powers pl0x" whiners. Since gear will be entirely identical in both versions, we will still all look the same. If you don't like it, however, there's the door.

4. This will GREATLY help to eliminate "bads" from raid content entirely. The equalization of difficulty from 10-man to 25-man will mean that one version is not more "faceroll" than the other. Adding to this the fact that crowd control will once again become something required for end-game trash, and to add also the fact that guild play will reap greater benefit than what is commonplace nowadays (the PuGtastathon), people will have two options. Learn how to use your characters properly, or get out.

I see much upside to these changes. The only thing I would like to see added is that heroic modes of encounters don't require clearing normal to unlock. Give the hardcore community their challenges upfront, and then Blizzard finally makes everyone happy for the first time in 5 long years.

[Crymsin]

So for loot, it has to work like this

1 drop per boss from 10 man (yes just 1.)

3 from 25 man

If they decided to go with the current route, (2 from 10 man) They would need at least 6 items PER BOSS to drop for it to be relevant. People would get geared way to quick, ergo I think it's going to be set up like above

That being said, I love change, can't wait to see how they do this.

however, how many bosses in 25 icc have 6 different items that anyone wants? it's 1-2 at most.

[Gobber]

I garauntee blizzard will find it nearly impossible to balance 10 man with 25 man without sucking the life out of any half decent encounter they make

[Kikiyodragon]

I think this is a fantastic change for everyone. Smaller guilds and PuGers need only to put together 10 people for the same tier of gear as those in larger guilds, and as it says in the description, if a large group has a lot of players away for whatever reason, the group that is able to raid won't be gimped. This does make me wonder what will happen to WotLK raids that have 10/25 man versions (My guess is it won't change, but who knows?).

The other change that is great is more smaller raids, and this is especially a good change for very casual guilds and PuGs (especially those that are successful for a few boss fights, but then break apart because some have to go for RL reasons).

[Sting]

Let's look at the pros and cons (from a 25 guy pov):

*Pros
-More badges
-More gold
-More items that drop will mean more chance at that rare trinket/ring/younameit every week

*Cons
-More people with the same gear
-Might kill "hardcore" guilds (and I'm sure it will)
-Coordination for 24 others is so much harder than for 9 others
-Getting 24 other people who are equally good/bad as you is also much harder than finding 9 others.

Overall I think the effort to raid 25 just won't be worth the trouble of getting enough people anymore, and some guilds will disband.

This is just an estimate ofcourse as I haven't seen the system in action.

[sephrael]

As a 25-man guild leader, I'll reserve my own judgement on this subject until I see more about it, but I do have one large concern..

Some people in the comments have thrown around the whole "guild levelling" as being the new bellwether for measurement of end-game participation, but really in my experience most people play for their own personal and instant gratification - for which loot is pretty much the best reward mechanism - with a lesser focus on guild pride, progression, and achievements. Without doing an exhaustive search, I'd say maybe 1 in 5 people in a progression guild do things like collect achievements and whatnot, while the rest are primarily gear motivated.

Thus, my biggest concern as a guild leader is with the combination of a shared 10-man lockout and the equalization of gear level it becomes practically impossible to field things like standby raiders which many 25 man guilds require for reasons of IRL when they will essentially be giving up ALL chances at loot by getting saved to 3/6 bosses on say a 25-man instances. I have no problems with 10-man guilds having the same gear as 25-man guilds and such, but when Blizzard does an about-face on their design and essentially punishes people that will be coming in to further their guild's progression, the first glance on this change looks like it's going to make my job as a guild leader that much more difficult.

[deathcowzz]

this is seriously bullshit... BRING ON 40 man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,