Anyone else concerned about Block?

[Ozmademos]

As someone who's played with Paladins, and then as a Paladin for years now, I'm concerned that Blizzard is turning their back on the Prot Paladin's use of shields. One of the eariler posts from the Devs said something to the effect of:

We want to keep the kit of the paladin as a tank who blocks alot. So by contrast, the warrior tank will sometimes get critical blocks, but the paladin will absorb more damage with normal blocks.

I like this alot. It tells me that as prot, I can expect to be blocking alot more than I am currently. The first part of that quote says something about the quantity of blocks over the course of a fight; the second says something about the quality of those blocks. Looking at how Holy Shield works now, my block chance will be lower than a warrior, unless I spend the Holy Power just be on par with them? That looks like, compared to a prot warrior, I won't be blocking more often (and possibly by blocking less, if I use my Holy Power for anything else). I also wont be getting the benefit of making larger blocks. So, right now, I wont be blocking more often or as big as warriors.

The claim is:

Warriors get 15% block baseline, so this means the paladin has to work harder for it. Seeing as how the paladin doesn't have to maintain Demo Shout or Thunderclap's debuff, this doesn't seem too great a burden.

and

It's entirely possible there isn't enough Holy Power to go around for Prot yet. We want you to be able to consider things like Inquisition and Word of Glory. Remember too that it's only 15% block. If it falls down from time to time, you're unlikely to drop dead

My concern is that, from my past experience, Warriors didnt give a flying hoot about keeping up Demo Shout or Thunderclap and it didnt phase them or the fight significantly. This might have just been a string of not-so-good warrior tanks, but it still concerns me that my block isnt somehow more important than a couple of buffs that arent going to be maintained by the prot warrior anyhow.

On a related note, I'm actually very excited about the complexity that Paladins are starting to get for tanking.

Update: 2Aug10
With the recent changes and the Mastery system and certain Paladin mechanics, I'm less concerned about Block now LOL

[zcks]

You have to remember their not done reworking paladins yet but by the time they get done with us hopefully that block chance via using holy power will be easy enough to maintain like demo shout & thunder clap is for warriors. That or perhaps they could increase the block amount a bit and give us some more active CD's that are worth using.

[Ronark]

Demo shout takes off about 15% off a Melee attack from a boss, and TClap took off about 10%.

Back before most buffs were streamlined, it was crucial to have these debuffs up (provided that they did not get pushed off the Debuff bar).

[Mmrdkm]

As someone who's played with Paladins, and then as a Paladin for years now, I'm concerned that Blizzard is turning their back on the Prot Paladin's use of shields. One of the eariler posts from the Devs said something to the effect of:



I like this alot. It tells me that as prot, I can expect to be blocking alot more than I am currently. The first part of that quote says something about the quantity of blocks over the course of a fight; the second says something about the quality of those blocks. Looking at how Holy Shield works now, my block chance will be lower than a warrior, unless I spend the Holy Power just be on par with them? That looks like, compared to a prot warrior, I won't be blocking more often (and possibly by blocking less, if I use my Holy Power for anything else). I also wont be getting the benefit of making larger blocks. So, right now, I wont be blocking more often or as big as warriors.

The claim is:

and


My concern is that, from my past experience, Warriors didnt give a flying hoot about keeping up Demo Shout or Thunderclap and it didnt phase them or the fight significantly. This might have just been a string of not-so-good warrior tanks, but it still concerns me that my block isnt somehow more important than a couple of buffs that arent going to be maintained by the prot warrior anyhow.

On a related note, I'm actually very excited about the complexity that Paladins are starting to get for tanking.

Couldn't agree more, either they up the block % on holy shield charges regarding HP, or they turn it back to how it used to be. Let me elaborate further, i dont see anything wrong with working on maintaining my block % up as long as it is worth it. But as they stated a 15% is not really all that alluring, and i could see myself using the HP on WoG if instant, or Inquisition without thinking twice about maintaining that little 15%, since an instant heal seems to outperform this little mitigation and in another situation Inquisition might work much better in a decaying threat environment. Now should they up the number to something closer to 30% and we are talking a whole new ball game.

[Ozmademos]

You have to remember their not done reworking paladins yet but by the time they get done with us hopefully that block chance via using holy power will be easy enough to maintain like demo shout & thunder clap is for warriors. That or perhaps they could increase the block amount a bit and give us some more active CD's that are worth using.

Indeed, I'm anxiously awaiting the further developments, and hopefully if more people share this concern it might spark a reworking or reconceptualizing from the game developers.

[Deleted]

hmm protection paladins mastery will be to block for higher amounts meaning instead of a block blocking 30% it might very well be possible to up it to 50-70% making a paladin block alot more powerfull than a wariors block, and while we passively apply vindication and 20% mele slow wariors will have to work to keep those up and for proggresion fights those are 2 of the most important debuffs in th game unless it is a caster boss offcourse.
and the reason for holy shield not being more is that they wantyou to be able to choose if you should go for more treath with inquisition, heal yourself with word of glory or being harder to killl with holy shield.
if holoy shield was a higher amount thant 15% the choice would always be holy shield making it a no brainer and this new holy power system they have made a total waste to even think about as prot since you would always use them for the same thing

[Gallahadd]

I'm a little worried tbh, Pally's were supposed to be the Block tanks, but then you see warriors getting 15% passive, while we have to work for it, plus they have a 30second(talented) CD move that gives them 100% chance to block for 10sec (although I strongly doubt this will go live) to me it seems like something has to be done, either an increase to HS to make it ~30% block, fully HP'd up, or give us the 15% passive block as well and make some kind of change to Shield Block. If not, once again Warriors will be THE MT of choice, with all the other tank classes relagated to OT/Trash Tank/Heroic tank slots.

[Deleted]

hmm the cataclysm version of divine guardian does kinda force paladins into an OT slot since it does not affect the paladins meaning if the paladin OT's it will be an extra CD to save the MT and can be used to save the raid from aoe damage but if the paladin MT's it can only be used to save the raid from aoe and not save the MT

[valkyre]

plus they have a 30second(talented) CD move that gives them 100% chance to block for 10sec (although I strongly doubt this will go live)

Shield block with 100% and 10sec duration is already ingame but its CD is 40 sec talanted...:O

[Lightfist]

I'm worried about a lot of things as a Prot Paladin right now. I'm not very happy with "Oh, well you're block tanks" to "Well, you have to use all your holy power, and then we're taking away your shield attack. Yeah. BUT YOU CAN REDUCE THE DAMAGE WARRIORS TAKE! =D".

And I don't give 2 shits if Warrior tanks have to use Demo shout, because I have to put hands on people and keep Sacred Shield up.

[Ozmademos]

hmm protection paladins mastery will be to block for higher amounts meaning instead of a block blocking 30% it might very well be possible to up it to 50-70% making a paladin block alot more powerfull than a wariors block

The last time I had looked at Mastery, it had something like 0.5% Block Amount for each point in the Prot tree, but I know that system has been worked over again as a stat on gear. I'm not sure what the Mastery affects for Prot Paladin's Blocking (anyone have that info please?).

the reason for holy shield not being more is that they wantyou to be able to choose if you should go for more treath with inquisition, heal yourself with word of glory or being harder to killl with holy shield.
if holoy shield was a higher amount thant 15% the choice would always be holy shield making it a no brainer and this new holy power system they have made a total waste to even think about as prot since you would always use them for the same thing

It sounds like Paladins will havbe a 0% chance to Block despite having a shield equipped (increased to 15% on three stacks with Holy Shield), and with the removal of Shield of Righteousness in favor of Hammer of the Righteous, and the changes to Holy Wrath to essentially be a Blinding Shield without the need for a shield, Paladins will only have one ability that emphasizes the need for a shield to be equipped, Avenger's Shield. (oh noes! 2-hander Paladin tanks?!? lol)

At first, I'd considered that for a boss fight, you'd get three stacks of Holy Power then pop Inquisition then get three more stacks and pop Holy Shield. But, the wording sounds like you cannot use the one while the other is active. So, in a choice between a small amount of survivability (for a relatively short duration) and a large amount of damage/threat (for a relatively longer duration), I'm guessing Holy Shield will come in last behind using Holy Power for Inquisition with periodic Word of Glory heals. Still, lots of and time and development to go, so here's hoping Paladins have real reason to equip their shields!

[Xadion]

Concerned about block ?

I'm concerned for the paladin tank altogether. There are many thing I really like about the new paladin changes. But there are many things were I just know that Blizzard will have to change it over and over again...
First of all the Holy Shield / Inquisition this is just dumb... 4,5% melee and ranged mitigation, a little mana and a little damage on sucessful blocks vs. a +30% damage boost to all but two attacks. That is alot of threat.
And with cataclysm being less threat friendly than wotlk... Not that the mitigation is bad, in fact its great. But the threat potential combined with taking alot of retri talents after those first 31 in prot is crazy.
And then it gets even more freaky...
Vengeance mechanic.
Druid benefit alot from AP, all their attacks are based on it and their savage defense is based on it.
Death Knight spells benefit alot from attack power.
Warriors attacks are all more or less based on attack power or the extra dps it gives.
Paladin certainly use attack power. But alot of abilities have low coefficients when it comes to attack power. Though they scale with spellpower too. I just don't think paladins get as much extra punch from this as the other tanks. So now they HAVE to use inquisition to keep up the threat.

So I think that whatever we assume about paladins and their abilities... Don't matter much at the moment, I think they will be changed over and over again during the start of cataclysm.

So all in all I'm in Ozmademos court on this one

[Raugnaut]

We can only hope that they give Redoubt as a passive, and HS lost 15% as a constant passive as well.

Last time I checked, Shield Block is 30 secs untalented, with NO CD talented, meaning 100% uptime. Not very fair if being compared to paladin's current stand.

[Deleted]

It's evident prot isn't finished yet, and the whole holy power mechanic is still going to be reworked for prot. Currently it's just plain bad.

[Talen]

As someone who's played with Paladins, and then as a Paladin for years now, I'm concerned that Blizzard is turning their back on the Prot Paladin's use of shields. One of the eariler posts from the Devs said something to the effect of:

We want to keep the kit of the paladin as a tank who blocks alot. So by contrast, the warrior tank will sometimes get critical blocks, but the paladin will absorb more damage with normal blocks.

I like this alot. It tells me that as prot, I can expect to be blocking alot more than I am currently. The first part of that quote says something about the quantity of blocks over the course of a fight; the second says something about the quality of those blocks. Looking at how Holy Shield works now, my block chance will be lower than a warrior, unless I spend the Holy Power just be on par with them? That looks like, compared to a prot warrior, I won't be blocking more often (and possibly by blocking less, if I use my Holy Power for anything else). I also wont be getting the benefit of making larger blocks. So, right now, I wont be blocking more often or as big as warriors.

Yes. As I'm not in Beta...shocking I know, but I'm probably too opinionated to make a good tester anyway...I can't say how exactly this will work. There is a possibility, I suppose, that the Block chance from HS is on top of the base chance which is equal to warriors...but it doesn't read that way. Acknowledging that, it seems Blizzard have changed their minds on this aspect, at least for now. But thats further homogenisation of the two classes, something which they said they wanted to change.

Warriors get 15% block baseline, so this means the paladin has to work harder for it. Seeing as how the paladin doesn't have to maintain Demo Shout or Thunderclap's debuff, this doesn't seem too great a burden.

and

It's entirely possible there isn't enough Holy Power to go around for Prot yet. We want you to be able to consider things like Inquisition and Word of Glory. Remember too that it's only 15% block. If it falls down from time to time, you're unlikely to drop dead

My concern is that, from my past experience, Warriors didnt give a flying hoot about keeping up Demo Shout or Thunderclap and it didnt phase them or the fight significantly. This might have just been a string of not-so-good warrior tanks, but it still concerns me that my block isnt somehow more important than a couple of buffs that arent going to be maintained by the prot warrior anyhow.

Warriors can, should and do care about maintaining TC and Demo shout. Where GCs argument falls down is that often its not the tanking warrior who actually provides or maintains this buff or that, because its attached ot an attack, it too is applied automatically and doesn't require active maintenance. So...he doesn't have to maintain it. In addition, the requirement for Holy Power means that Protadins will enter a fight WITHOUT Holy Shield being up. And GCs description of it "only" being 15% hints to the buff as somehow meaningless. In which case it becomes yet another mini CD effect used on occasion...if the block isn't needed, then tanks will spend the HP on DPS/threat. Theres also the worry about the need and desireability of simply maintaining a self buff....something a lot of players find tedious.

To be honest...he is right. If HS requires HP then it can't be up all the time. Therefore it can't be mandatory. Therefore it must be skippable. Especially since GC wants a chcoei between HS and Inquistion. As it is, if HS is indispensible...it'll be used. If it can be dropped without harm...it most often will be. HS, using HP, would be better if HP extended the duration rather than the effect. But at that stage, you may as well just may it a buff.

So, right now it seems HS will enable a Paladin to block just as often as a warrior, wihtout the added benefit of Critical Block. Protadins may get to get their previous mastery of increased block chance but we don't know that for the moment. SHoR has been removed, I haven't seen BS for a while and it too is reported MIA. And none of a Protadins main CD moves require a shield.

At the minute, therefore, Protadins require a shield for passive blocking, Holy Shield and its mere 15% block chance, and Avengers Shield.

I don't, however, expect the Shield Mastery talent apparently giving warriors an effective 100% block at times to go live...or at least, to actually allow 100% block permanently in practise. Thats probably a mistake. Not that I'd mind a permanent 30% mitigation on my warrior

On a related note, I'm actually very excited about the complexity that Paladins are starting to get for tanking.

There are some good aspects - the chance to refresh Holy Wraths CD being one. But Holy Power needs to be much better integrated into the system, the current Holy Shield needs to be reworked, ShoR or replacement needs to be implemented. Another proc or two possibly wouldn't go amiss. And we have to see what Blizzard are planning to differentitate warrior and paladin tanking....the obvious choice is to make Paladins do 2H tanking, and Death Knights dual wield but that in turn has several implications and further retuning of those two specs. Conversely, if they do keep shield tanking for Paladins, Paladins should have some shield interaction to stop it simply being "5% chance to block an attack, modified by Holy Shield and Mastery". One option thats prings to mind is to have ShOR or HS return as a HP generator, with HotR being a finisher of some sort. Or transferring the effect of JotJ or Vindication or HotR to ShoR.

EJL

[Mmrdkm]

Just to clarify, HS now improves your chance to block, not the amount, and with the amount of dodge/parry in cata it doesnt make us unhitable, as we are now in live, except for icc, bit we still .

So in an eviroment, where we are not at risk of being insta gibbed, where threat decays and each mana/heal counts for more than it does now, 15% chance to block over 30% more threat and ocasional zero cost heal are way, better than a measly 15% block. Still numbers are not final as we all know, but the trend aint good.

Also as far as we know mastery will increase the amount we block, for not the chances to block. As far as i understand this is set this way because there will be no further block value scaling from strength, or BV items themselves. Though we might see Block rating on the shields themselves, but i hardly believe there will be such a stat on any piece of actual tanking gear outside of shields, since this would be proly not PC for the other plate tank... and well, blizz is going HOMOgenous on gear too.

But i guess we all know this, all i'm saying is, i dont mind working to keep my block chance up, as long as it's worth the effort.

[Ozmademos]

At the minute, therefore, Protadins require a shield for passive blocking

One of the things I'd been worried about was that, without Block Chance on gear and by not activating Holy Shield, Paladins will have 0% chance to Block. But, they will be having some passive block chance, and then the 5%-15% added in from Holy Shield? Or, will Prot Pallys have 0% chance to Block until activating Holy Shield, giving them a maximum chance to block of 15% regardless of gear or stats?

the obvious choice is to make Paladins do 2H tanking, and Death Knights dual wield but that in turn has several implications and further retuning of those two specs. Conversely, if they do keep shield tanking for Paladins, Paladins should have some shield interaction to stop it simply being "5% chance to block an attack, modified by Holy Shield and Mastery". One option thats prings to mind is to have ShOR or HS return as a HP generator, with HotR being a finisher of some sort. Or transferring the effect of JotJ or Vindication or HotR to ShoR.

If anything, I wouldnt mind seeing Warriors 2h tanks and Paladins being the Shield holders :P would fit in nicely with duel spec'ing and a bit of lore there. The other thing I'd thought of was that Holy Shield would become the Shield pop of choice for AoE tanking/smaller Block move (15% on multiple mobs still adds up to alot of blocking or where huge mitigation isnt necessary) and Shield of the Righteous should be the new single target/bigger Block chance move; having both exclusive with each other and Inquisition still of course.

[Talen]

If anything, I wouldnt mind seeing Warriors 2h tanks and Paladins being the Shield holders :P would fit in nicely with duel spec'ing and a bit of lore there.

Unfortunately...there are two arguments against that.

First, outside of Blizzard, the Paladin class isn't really associated with physical shields. Not a great reason, but something to keep in mind.

Second, it is the Paladins class and not the warrior class which is being revamped. DKs already do DW tanking in some apsects so Blizzard could simply transfer skills and abilities from whatever specs. Merging Threat of Thassarian into Nerves of Cold Steel would, I think, go a long way towards making DW DK tanks much more viable. All told, if Blizzard were to split the tanking classs like this, Paladins would be the obvious choice for 2H tanking.

Given the recent deemphasis of the paladins shield, I would suspect they've actually toyed with the idea. Given recent comments, however, I would suspect that its not going through if they have. Besides Bolvar had a Shield.

The other thing I'd thought of was that Holy Shield would become the Shield pop of choice for AoE tanking/smaller Block move (15% on multiple mobs still adds up to alot of blocking or where huge mitigation isnt necessary) and Shield of the Righteous should be the new single target/bigger Block chance move; having both exclusive with each other and Inquisition still of course.

Its not really needed. Divine Purpose fills the role of Shield Block now. And it doesn't require a shield. Indeed, none of the Paladins current survival CDs require a shield. Its one reason that I got thinking and asked if people would like a Paladins as a 2H tank.

---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 10:12 PM ----------

Just to clarify, HS now improves your chance to block, not the amount, and with the amount of dodge/parry in cata it doesnt make us unhitable, as we are now in live, except for icc, bit we still .

Pretty much the way it is now then.

So in an eviroment, where we are not at risk of being insta gibbed, where threat decays and each mana/heal counts for more than it does now, 15% chance to block over 30% more threat and ocasional zero cost heal are way, better than a measly 15% block. Still numbers are not final as we all know, but the trend aint good.

Threat decays. Would an Inquisition/Word of Glory rotation thus not be a better use of HP than Holy Block? Possibly. As its is, there will be no mana free heal with the current iteration of HS because HS drains all HP.

now mastery will increase the amount we block, for not the chances to block.

Other way around for paladins. Block more often as opposed to the warriors block more less often.

But i guess we all know this, all i'm saying is, i dont mind working to keep my block chance up, as long as it's worth the effort.

GC stated HS was "only" a 15% chance to block. He isn't giving any indication thats worth it. Any mitigation is good for a tank.

But....there are concerns with the current design.

1: Its reliance on HP means Paladins cannot enter combat with it in place.
2: The HP system means they must spend 8s from their first CS to get the full 15% block.
3: The HP system means that the next 12 seconds will be spent getting the HP to renew a 15s buff. Longer if you miss....and (IIRC) Blizzard are working to eliminate "caps". In essence, you have an entire new mechanic to use....and its spent entirley maintaining HS.
4: If the 15% is mandatory, then HS will be kept up regardless. If its not, it loses a lot of its value. Again, that "only 15% block" comment comes to mind.
5: The new system, combined with the warrior info, suggest Blizzards plan to have paladins block more often may have changed. Unless they're thinking about the mastery as well.

So...HS is now a self maintained buff that prevents Protadins doing anything at all with the new HP system if its worth keeping up. And if it isn't, the HP system prevents its use as a CD type tool.

HS currently isn't a good tool to have.

EJL

[Ozmademos]

outside of Blizzard, the Paladin class isn't really associated with physical shields.

Interesting and true.

if Blizzard were to split the tanking classs like this, Paladins would be the obvious choice for 2H tanking.

Given the recent deemphasis of the paladins shield, I would suspect they've actually toyed with the idea. Given recent comments, however, I would suspect that its not going through if they have.

The more I think about it... the idea of Paladins being the 2h tanks, DK the DW, Warriors the 'Sword and Board', and Druids the Bears... it sounds very interesting, almost exciting of an idea. It would definitely preserve a unique means of tanking and be the source of an interesting twist in lore.

Paladins dropping their shields to put the utmost faith in the Light to protect them and save them while tanking. Oh snap!

[Deleted]

Just pointing out. The warriors you've played with have to be bad, Demo and Clap is up 110% of the time im tanking, OT or MT.

:>