sin and punishment

[Bullettime]

Sad thing is, you will take this talent since it's the only talent that increases damage, and you need 31 points in the tree. Depending on fight mechanics, 2/2 Phantasm (Fade removes Movement impairing effects) or 2/2 Paralysis (Mind Blast crits root the target for 4 sec) might be better in some rare cases.

Sadly. We either take the the tiny tiny tiny damage increase or take a little personal utility. Pretty crappy choice.

[Ananan]

Hmm, maybe that's why they had to add the extra threat to Mind Spike.

Without using Mind Spike:

Mind Blast lands every 8 seconds (6.5 sec CD + ~1.5 sec cast).
With a 20% crit chance that's 1.5 crits per minute, and with a talented 4 min CD on Shadow Fiend you'll knock an average of 48 seconds off the CD in the 192 seconds that remain. (I think that's still decent for a talent like this really.)

Using 2x Mind Spikes before every Mind Blast:

Mind Blast lands every 6.5 seconds (6.5 sec CD - no cast time due to the Mind Spikes).
With an 80% crit chance (+60% from Mind Spikes) that's 7.38 crits per minute, and with a talented 4 min CD on Shadow Fiend you'll knock an average of 132 seconds off the CD in the 108 seconds that remain.

[Ztrata]

Hmm, maybe that's why they had to add the extra threat to Mind Spike.

Without using Mind Spike:

Mind Blast lands every 8 seconds (6.5 sec CD + ~1.5 sec cast).
With a 20% crit chance that's 1.5 crits per minute, and with a talented 4 min CD on Shadow Fiend you'll knock an average of 48 seconds off the CD in the 192 seconds that remain. (I think that's still decent for a talent like this really.)

Using 2x Mind Spikes before every Mind Blast:

Mind Blast lands every 6.5 seconds (6.5 sec CD - no cast time due to the Mind Spikes).
With an 80% crit chance (+60% from Mind Spikes) that's 7.38 crits per minute, and with a talented 4 min CD on Shadow Fiend you'll knock an average of 132 seconds off the CD in the 108 seconds that remain.

S&P reduces shadow fiend cool down with Mind Flay crits, not Mind Blast

[Elothie]

I am playing right now by using sf and spamming MF and it works for me (10secs on MF crits) dunno maybe it's fixed.

[Direshadow]

I am playing right now by using sf and spamming MF and it works for me (10secs on MF crits) dunno maybe it's fixed.

When Spriests start getting geared, and in fully buffed raid situations, our little shadowy hate pet is going to be out all the time

[Ananan]

S&P reduces shadow fiend cool down with Mind Flay crits, not Mind Blast

Ah, I was responding to the posts one page back that claim that in the current build it does proc from Mind Blast. Can't test it myself.

[Kelesti]

When Spriests start getting geared, and in fully buffed raid situations, our little shadowy hate pet is going to be out all the time

Except not.

[Elothie]

My 36% crit chance ptr priest (with 4pc t10) can get it off in 45seconds.It will soon come the time that I will be able to make this on cataclysm (and not in 45 but in ~1min and it will be ok).

[Abandon]

Try levelling and watch all that Crit disappear.

[Kaesebrezen]

Try levelling and watch all that Crit disappear.

You forgot: watch the 4pc t10 disappear.

[Annesh]

Yeah, it seems to me like after all the Cataclysm changes, at 85 in raid-entry blues, the fiend's cooldown will end up being between 2.5 and 3 minutes.

And that's while using Flay a lot.

So basically, if for one reason or another - including just being out of combat and having nothing to Flay - you're not using Flay often, the Fiend's cooldown is actually nerfed.

To get it back down to where it is on Live, you have to be spamming Flay.

Or maybe not. I don't even have an active Live account right now. So while I certainly am being a negative nancy, that's how it seems to me. Feel free to argue, as I certainly don't have much ground to stand on.

[Direshadow]

Try levelling and watch all that Crit disappear.

I was more referring to us being GEARED and BUFFED.

I don't know why I even post here. So many downers that take people's words literally.

[Kelesti]

I was more referring to us being GEARED and BUFFED.

Geared and buffed won't bring your crit to the levels it's at now.

I don't know why I even post here. So many downers that take people's words literally.

Some of us wonder why you even post here too, when you're not taking people's words for what they're worth at all.

Did you have that much crit in 245 gear? No.

That's the standard for what we can expect from top tier. We weren't intended to have 277 gear.

[Direshadow]

Geared and buffed won't bring your crit to the levels it's at now.

Some of us wonder why you even post here too, when you're not taking people's words for what they're worth at all.

Did you have that much crit in 245 gear? No.

That's the standard for what we can expect from top tier. We weren't intended to have 277 gear.

I won't even try to argue with you. You're a moderator, and I like posting here. I'm sure you know what I mean.

[Kelesti]

I won't even try to argue with you. You're a moderator, and I like posting here. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Because you've been successfully avoiding the point that "in 85 raid gear we won't have that much crit"?

[Direshadow]

Because you've been successfully avoiding the point that "in 85 raid gear we won't have that much crit"?

I'll probably get banned for this, knowing how you work, but at the moment we don't really know how gear will look in the future. Half the instances and raids aren't even itemized yet, and despite the fact that YES, crit has been nerfed, we're talking about the very early levels of 5 man heroics.

When i say "geared and buffed" I'm referring to 1 or 2 tiers down the road when crit WILL be higher, no matter how you slice it. That's one of the exciting things about the talent is that it only gets BETTER as the game progresses.

Same with my comment about having our Shadow Fiend up "all the time". You assume that I'm talking that we'll have it out as a freaking Permanent pet, when really I'm saying that we'll have it out a hell of a lot more then we do right now.

Wowinsider even had an article on the subject.

Finally, my point is, is that people are focusing more on the "bad" then they are on the good. I love my class and people shooting me down simply because I'm excited about the changes is discouraging, and the whole reason I post on this forum in the first place is because of the lack of negativity.

Compared to the main wow forums that is.

[Kelesti]

I'll probably get banned for this, knowing how you work

Ouch. One, if I call someone out to challenge their point of view, and ban them for it, that's an abuse of power. It's also flame baiting and can get me not only revoked of privileges, but banned myself.

Just an FYI. And seeing how long Nocturna lasted around here, TiduZ, anyone else, I let people openly defy me so long as they can prove a point. I have no problems with people telling me I'm flat out wrong, this should be quite obvious by "how I work".

Edit: I'm actually somewhat offended you brought it up.

but at the moment we don't really know how gear will look in the future. Half the instances and raids aren't even itemized yet, and despite the fact that YES, crit has been nerfed, we're talking about the very early levels of 5 man heroics.

When i say "geared and buffed" I'm referring to 1 or 2 tiers down the road when crit WILL be higher, no matter how you slice it. That's one of the exciting things about the talent is that it only gets BETTER as the game progresses.

Crit will be higher 1-2 tiers down the road than what it is in 85 questing blues and heroic drops, yes. We agree on this. What you're not noting though is Blizzard admitted they screwed up, so 1-2 tiers down the road, so even by Deathwing Gear you won't have the crit you have now. You'll probably be lucky to break 20% raidbuffed by the end of Tier 12. That's thanks to stat inflation (yay ratings drop... again!), and the fact they aren't letting Itemization get out of control like they did (which was because they hadn't planned around needing a secondary level just for hard modes). Which is the point.

Same with my comment about having our Shadow Fiend up "all the time". You assume that I'm talking that we'll have it out as a freaking Permanent pet, when really I'm saying that we'll have it out a hell of a lot more then we do right now.

People keep spouting off numbers like an 80% uptime, or it's out "constantly" when sure that may be the case on the PTR at 80, but at 85 it's far from the case. It also won't be the case in Deathwing gear, which is why I jumped on your "all the time" comment.

Finally, my point is, is that people are focusing more on the "bad" then they are on the good. I love my class and people shooting me down simply because I'm excited about the changes is discouraging, and the whole reason I post on this forum in the first place is because of the lack of negativity.

There's a lot of negative rolling off quite a few people here. I'm not trying to be negative, really. A lot of what I do is adding little tidbits to not get people's hopes up too high, but obviously tone does not transfer very well through text.

I am ecstatic about Priest changes as a whole. Holy, Discipline, Shadow, PvE, PvP, solo. Everything is shaping up to be solid and I overall am quite pleased. There are some things that could use some tweaking (Atonement, Prayer of Healing being a key ones here), but on the whole I feel great about our Class and encourage people to do the same. We have a pretty mild community compared to not just the wowforums, but the other classes on both their boards and ours as well, and so despite the lack of "pumped up" feeling you might get, our "sky is falling" is pretty tame in comparison too, which should speak miles for itself.

Compared to the main wow forums that is.

This is something I will agree with. I didn't even bother registering to the beta forums after seeing the crap spewing out for Paladins and Warriors day after day.


Also, for anyone else, if you have comments regarding moderation in general, I suggest you click the "Contact" button to e-mail Boubouille on the Front/Main Page.

[Abolishment]

Kelesti, with all due respect, your initial response was scary. I've read a lot of your posts, and you usually post with reason, respect, and things that positively contribute to a point.

I can see how Direshadow took your (comparatively speaking) snappy response (italics are scary) as an assault to his otherwise positive comment.

Likewise, Direshadow, moderators aren't nearly as scary as people think. Going through a thread and seeing how many banned accounts have contributed to it makes me uneasy too. For instance, just about every 10+ page thread I've read today has had at least five banned members before I get to page 10.

But the reality, is that bans are not handed out like candy. You have to earn it. Disagreeing with a moderator doesn't earn you a ban (so long as you're not terribly offensive). The general rule of thumb is, if your post looks like a counter-argument and not an insult, it's perfectly acceptable.

On topic, I see this as a wonderful thing. Shadowfiend does actual damage, and regenerates a fair amount of mana. This furthers the idea that caster DPS aren't limited by mana, much like how melee DPS aren't limited by their respective resource. Gone are the days when your DPS plummets to 0 because gear/encounter mechanics/bad class design favors Rage, Energy, and Runic Power.

[Kelesti]

Kelesti, with all due respect, your initial response was scary.

Fair enough. I get a little sick of the same "thing" (if it were a question, I'd use that word, but it's not...), and who I reply to gets a little blurry at times, in regards to if it's the first or not.

Darkshadow: I apologize for my initial response, as well as the snippy comment that followed it.

On an equally important note:

(italics are scary)

Do you mind if I sig this?

[Abolishment]

Do you mind if I sig this?

My first day back to the forums, and I'm already in Kelesti's signature. I hope the Shaman forum welcomes me with similar kindness.

I think as long as I don't use "fulmination", "rotation", or "viable" in any of my posts, they won't Frost Shock me back into retirement.