Competition for Cata Raid Spots for Rets

[Esuna3]

Actually there aren't any unique buffs anymore aside from maybe lust which it's on two classes now. I also don't talk as Blizzard made a deliberate attempt to stop the class from raiding or where you even got that idea from though I do find it comical to say the least.

You realize blizzard has been trying to preach bring the player and not the class for 5 years now and have also been failing at that for exactly how long? You got it 5 years until they make that work it means nothing and should be dismissed as fast as it was be read.

Five years and the best idea they can come up with is to make us rogues in plate. I was all set to mainline my pally for another xpac till it sunk in that they're "next big thing" for the class is to make us tank, heal, and dps with combo points. If I wanted combo points, I would have rolled a rogue in the first place. Low dps is a issue, but even if they fix it rets will still be competing for spots with other classes that bring real game changing abilities to the table. Meanwhile ret will have buffs already supplied twice over by other classes and and a few hand spells of little to no value in comparison.

[Pickwickman]

Five years and the best idea they can come up with is to make us rogues in plate. I was all set to mainline my pally for another xpac till it sunk in that they're "next big thing" for the class is to make us tank, heal, and dps with combo points. If I wanted combo points, I would have rolled a rogue in the first place. Low dps is a issue, but even if they fix it rets will still be competing for spots with other classes that bring real game changing abilities to the table. Meanwhile ret will have buffs already supplied twice over by other classes and and a few hand spells of little to no value in comparison.

Competing is not bad. Competing is good.

Not being able to compete because of innately doing less damage while putting in the same amount of work is bad.

[Rlyskilled]

You realize blizzard has been trying to preach bring the player and not the class for 5 years now and have also been failing at that for exactly how long? You got it 5 years until they make that work it means nothing and should be dismissed as fast as it was be read.

Nah, bring the player not the class is fine for normal modes!

I'm not looking forward to the ridicule that will come with "heeey what happened to your class, Mac?" when I go from beating rogues with RNG cleave shenanigans to fighting to keep up the bottom in Cataclysm. That is if they haven't replaced me with something more useful.

[Yorkshire Geek]

If your main goal is to progress competitively, that's a stupid move. besides, just don't give the guy any loot if he's that much a prick.

The main goal for 99.999% of people playing this game is to have fun, not compete for progression.

[Badpaladin]

The main goal for 99.999% of people playing this game is to have fun, not compete for progression.

Cool, go play normal modes. That's what they're there for. I'm also not sure branding competitive progression as unfun is fair either. I'm an extremely competitive person in real life(sports, school, whatever) so it only makes sense for me that raid progression is fun as well. The problem with this whole "bring the player, not the class" is any guild worth a damn will take the higher DPS until they get a first kill. That's the way all sports work -- you may have a dick that plays QB, but he's better than the kid you like, so you play him until it's safe to play the benchwarmers for a few downs. I hope they balance the numbers, but currently ret is a benchwarmer. Don't let your Shadowmourne on the ptr make you think otherwise.

[Rlyskilled]

It'll be fixed by the second tier when they figure out people that play rets are either rerolling or quitting in frustration

[Shadowmelded]

It'll be fixed by the second tier when they figure out people that play rets are either rerolling or quitting in frustration

and their plan will have succeeded... jk

Although the sheer amount of ret paladins and paladins in general might make the numbers slightly skewed.

[Typhron]

and their plan will have succeeded... jk

Although the sheer amount of ret paladins and paladins in general might make the numbers slightly skewed.

There's only such a large number due to people perceiving the class as overpowered at the moment, making people roll the class to a certain degree and then stop. Really obfuscates the class's real population.

@ BadPaladin & Yorkshire Geek: Arguing whether or not Ret excels in a core or casual raiding environment doesn't change that it's going to suffer in both if something's not done.

[Badpaladin]

@ BadPaladin & Yorkshire Geek: Arguing whether or not Ret excels in a core or casual raiding environment doesn't change that it's going to suffer in both if something's not done.

I don't think it's going to be that big of a problem in casual settings. In those circumstances, people will choose who they raid with based on how they are as people, not as the class they bring.

[Shadowmelded]

There's only such a large number due to people perceiving the class as overpowered at the moment, making people roll the class to a certain degree and then stop. Really obfuscates the class's real population.
.

that was the point I was trying to make >.<

[Vanderhuge]

It'll be fixed by the second tier when they figure out people that play rets are either rerolling or quitting in frustration

Oh come on, Blizzard's always on top of things. They would NEVER let that happen.

...Right?

[Typhron]

that was the point I was trying to make >.<

Oh, sorry. >.>

I don't think it's going to be that big of a problem in casual settings. In those circumstances, people will choose who they raid with based on how they are as people, not as the class they bring.

I'd beg to differ. There are so many guild/people/environments out using raid composition and are srsfaced all the time, when all they're doing is normal modes (sometimes not even very good attempts at that). The greater will always inadvertently affect the lesser.

It probably won't be as bad as it was in tBC, but the potetial is always there.

[Hexme]

People need to stop freaking out seriously, guilds have been using ret paladins for raiding for 2-3 years, its not the end of the ret spec not even close (sorry i've seen the worse paladins went through).

Guilds need melee just as much as range so stop QQing and if your guild doesnt use you in the 10 or 25 mans...then well find a guild that does. Theres a spot always open for good players regardless of class, Slayton proved that in BC when alliance paladins had it bad, in fact worse than paladins have it now cause they had no actual dps seal like SoB which was godly in end game raiding.

Guild epeen flexing died out after BC, no one has cared pretty much through out wotlk except for Yogg and LK.

[Pickwickman]

Oh come on, Blizzard's always on top of things. They would NEVER let that happen.

...Right?

They have 9 other classes and 29 other trees to balance. Although Blizzard is known as a company to only bring out their games and expansions as perfect as possible, this cannot be in an eternal flux that is an MMORPG.

The worst thing that can happen, is happening at the moment to Ret; we are doing a ton of less damage than the rest of the classes' except for warriors, which we are pretty damn even with (my 3 favorite classes are Warr/Pala/DK) and both having no unique ability to bring to a raid anymore will mean that we will be represented a lot less in the bleeding-edge raidcompositions. Which will make people who like progression short on luck.

This sucks.

---------- Post added 2010-10-09 at 10:11 PM ----------

People need to stop freaking out seriously, guilds have been using ret paladins for raiding for 2-3 years, its not the end of the ret spec not even close (sorry i've seen the worse paladins went through).

Guilds need melee just as much as range so stop QQing and if your guild doesnt use you in the 10 or 25 mans...then well find a guild that does. Theres a spot always open for good players regardless of class, Slayton proved that in BC when alliance paladins had it bad, in fact worse than paladins have it now cause they had no actual dps seal like SoB which was godly in end game raiding.

Guild epeen flexing died out after BC, no one has cared pretty much through out wotlk except for Yogg and LK.

We are talking about bleeding-edge progression, not about the average Paladin. The average paladin will still be able to raid, easily.

[Badpaladin]

People need to stop freaking out seriously, guilds have been using ret paladins for raiding for 2-3 years, its not the end of the ret spec not even close (sorry i've seen the worse paladins went through).

Guilds need melee just as much as range so stop QQing and if your guild doesnt use you in the 10 or 25 mans...then well find a guild that does. Theres a spot always open for good players regardless of class, Slayton proved that in BC when alliance paladins had it bad, in fact worse than paladins have it now cause they had no actual dps seal like SoB which was godly in end game raiding.

Guild epeen flexing died out after BC, no one has cared pretty much through out wotlk except for Yogg and LK.

I disagree on guild status, it only died down a bit in ICC because of the buff getting many guilds to 11/12 who normally would not have been able to achieve it. The issue is, your frame of mind is one that says "it will work out if you're good enough". I think that's a piss-poor philosophy, and that everybody should be at or near an even playing field instead of only being determined by the super-elite. It's simply not the case in cataclysm, and that's the problem I'm seeing.

[Pickwickman]

I disagree on guild status, it only died down a bit in ICC because of the buff getting many guilds to 11/12 who normally would not have been able to achieve it. The issue is, your frame of mind is one that says "it will work out if you're good enough". I think that's a piss-poor philosophy, and that everybody should be at or near an even playing field instead of only being determined by the super-elite. It's simply not the case in cataclysm, and that's the problem I'm seeing.

I tip my head off to you, dear sir. Up until the moment all classes in their appropriate gear and skill level do exact the same dps, you will have people choosing one class over the other in regards to high-end, competitive guilds.

[Arteous]

my main as a dps warrior i somewhat face the same problem. Unfortunately it seems wow is somewhat taking a halfhearted step back to the way things were in vanilla and some class specs that were competetive won't be wanted by guilds trying to get server 1st or top 100 kills/dungeon clears.

We won't know for sure at 85 in engame gear yet but early on i fully expect dps warriors and ret paladins not to be wanted. (probably will change later on)

[Badpaladin]

my main as a dps warrior i somewhat face the same problem. Unfortunately it seems wow is somewhat taking a halfhearted step back to the way things were in vanilla and some class specs that were competetive won't be wanted by guilds trying to get server 1st or top 100 kills/dungeon clears.

We won't know for sure at 85 in engame gear yet but early on i fully expect dps warriors and ret paladins not to be wanted. (probably will change later on)

I can't speak for warriors at 85, but on the ptr they're not looking too amazing either. We shall see though, blizzard will release a big patch not too soon after the first raid tier has been hit up by guilds. If specs like Fury and Retribution are underperforming by a whole lot(like elemental shaman in early wrath), they may do a big numbers balance. I'm worried that it may come later, after a few server firsts though.

[Hexme]

I tip my head off to you, dear sir. Up until the moment all classes in their appropriate gear and skill level do exact the same dps, you will have people choosing one class over the other in regards to high-end, competitive guilds.

Theres no competition between a lot of guilds, i guarentee you 9/10 guilds who think they are good aren't, how many guilds can say they can kill HMs without the 30% buff, not a lot, how many guilds say they killed LK 25 without the 30% probably one or two, did they have a ret paladin? probably.

The whole hey lets all be equal trend is old and will never happen, why role a paladin if mages do the same dps? its like if everyone in the world wore red shirts and blue shorts 24/7, personally as long as paladins are somewhat competitive i'm happy specially if paladins can compete at single target/boss fights, the ones that matter, not entrey lvl 5 mans/ 5 man heroics where most fights are what 2 min give or take (boss fights)

All the paladins that are QQing in beta, look at the color of you gear, if you are wearing mostly blues stop right now and remember this Purple > Blue > Green is the order of gear you obtain, thats WoW basic 101, do not expect to be pulling 9k dps in BLUES. If you're doing 5k dps in epics when cata is released, the yeah theres a problem with paladins but we arent there yet.

[Jon]

"Bring the player, not the class" is a crappy argument.

It holds true only for the bad and average guilds where a good (or just an average) player can shine and outdps (or heal) others while playing a "bad" class.

Good guilds have good players for every spot, and if your class/spec happens to suck for some reason you can't expect your playskill to get you a raidspot... because everyone else is skilled too.

Of course, I'm not arguing that buffs should get you a raidspot... I'm saying that all specs should be extremly close to each other in performance overall (given equal skill), with some variance depeniding on what class the encounter happens to favor.