Demonology talent tree – great choice for what? PVE, PVP, leveling?

[Deleted]

CONCLUSIONS – if TLDR is your case:

-demonology tree basicaly has only 35 somewhat usable talents

-many talents are greatly underperforming

-many talents’ positions in tree have zero sense leading into the bitter taste from demo tree while leveling

-many talents have no use in PVP leading into demonology has only 24 talent points usable in PVP

-in tier 3 and higher (those demonology exclusive) are only 2 talents that can say: I’m here mainly for PVP – aura of foreboding (clumsy) & demonic empowerement

-in PVP department beyond tier 2 (those demonology exclusive talents) it lacks something from PVP category talents – heal / mitigation / instants - burst / constant pressure / control / utility , (maybe metamorphosis can cover some of these but it is one wild card in 3 min – 30 sec of glory and then back to the dust)



this is NOT BUFF ME to oblivion thread, this is MAKE ME NOT FEEL STUPID when I’m choosing talent points thread




PROBLEMATIC TALENTS:
master summoner completely useless – this makes demonology tree to actualy have only 35 talents
no use while leveling / soloing / 5-mens / raids / PVP


ancient grimoire nearly completely useless
+20 sec duration to a 10min CD with ~1k dps is 20 k more DamageDone every 10 mins – greatly underperforming, only noticeable when burn phase lenght is greater than 45sec, would be surprised if infernal/doomguard will live that long in PVP


impending doom useless in PVP, useless while leveling
talent obtainable at level ~20 is buffing talent obtainable on level 70

ebon imp currently is not scaling with anything

in PVP both aspects are useless
-bane of doom will be dispelled far before it does first tick damage, if it somewhat happens to summon ebon imp, with 5hp it will not live long
-shadowbolting in PVP does not happen concluding into metamorphosis always having 3min CD


inferno nearly completely useless
PVE - underperforming compared to other AoEs + self damage

PVP – self damage, PVP is definitely NOT time when I want to damage myself


cremation nearly completely useless
hellfire part is useless because hellfire is useless

refreshing immolate will more likely not reliably happen in real environment, 0,5sec window is not enough (compared to haunt & corruption – 7sec window)


molten core useless in PVP, useless while leveling
talent obtainable at level ~40 is buffing spell obtainable at level 64!!!

underperforming in PVE

no real use in PVP, low proc chance, procing from dispellable spell with cast time only to slightly buff another spell with cast time – at least it is no longer triggered from shadow bolting, what would never happen in PVP environment


aura of foreboding clumsy
might be ballast in PVE when tank needs reposition mobs

clumsy use in PVP



ABSTRACT – emo rant:
What happened to their goals?

-concentrated coolness - does not work here

-talents benefiting multiple aspects of game - does not work here

-having hard time choosing from good talents you all want - does not work here – it is perfect opposite, trying to avoid terrible talents

-feeling great while leveling - I’m stronger with every new talent point - does not work here


Sometimes I doubt of the intellect & rationality of people in charge of this game ...

[Jessicka]

Agree basically with everything there. The essential problem is they built the tree backwards; ie they looked at how they wanted it at 80 then assembled the tree for functionality at 85 without really looking at the period of levelling actually meshing talents you'd use at the levels you'd get them. Another huge issue seems the bottom tiers are principally balanced for the sake of PvP for Destruction and Affliction (hense all the passives at the bottom). In short, it's nice for end game, but not a lot else.

WRT HoG refreshing Immolate; it's not ideal. Mostly it's ok and workable, but there are times when you've just started a SB cast and HoG comes off cooldown and you just wont make it to refresh. Imho, mostly doesn't really cut it; it's not the sort of RNG you should be loosing damage to and I can see it becoming much more of a problem with much lower Haste levels at 85.

[Glnger]

bascially they are telling you "we gave ele shams a 10% spellpower, now respec affliction or destro"
not to say demo is under performing, but they just seem to have added to the "clunkiness" of the spec and threw in some really out there talents. i mean having two 2nd tier talents with 2 points each that both affect demon summoning... really? cmon!

demonic empowerment is a telent I'm still trying to wrap my head around, just like it did in wotlk. I simply dont see a point in time when a spec that derives its mastery (what the spec is supposed to be "good" at) would use anything but a felguard aside from some really out there solo boss attempt

[koltara]

This will make the T11-set a bit sexy for demo locks ;-)

[Affectionate]

bascially they are telling you "we gave ele shams a 10% spellpower, now respec affliction or destro"

except demo seems to be doing comparable dps, unless ive see things wrong

[Jessicka]

bascially they are telling you "we gave ele shams a 10% spellpower, now respec affliction or destro"

I don't think that at all. It's a nice playstyle, and can certainly produce the numbers. Every tree has it's problems, and Demo is probably amongst the least bad of all 30 in that regard, HoG aside, it works pretty well mechanically at the level cap for PvE.

PvP is another issue; it's too complex for PvE to really transfer well to a PvP environment where simple damage is King because there's so much more to consider than just putting damage out there.

Again; it's a tree built around how it plays at the level cap in PvE. Individually it's parts are pretty crappy, and frequently useless, but they do add up to something good by the time you're 80.

[volrat]

You are damn right.... and that is damn sad...i wont spend more words, i've already ranted enough on this topic, while many were sooooooooooo happy with these changes, i only have one thing to admit, Demo, given the fact that every spec with current content is OP, is quiet funny to watch, but the rotation is, well, at least confusing.

Imho, it needs nearly totally revision and rethinking, my true question is, "Did someone at Blizz ever tried out a demonology Lock?"
My sensation is they put ideas and never play with the class to verify anything..

[Affectionate]

I think you're focus'd to much on its pvp play, its a lot of fun in pve to me, the sum of all the parts make it complex enough to be rewarding when played correctly

[Deleted]

I think you're focus'd to much on its pvp play, its a lot of fun in pve to me, the sum of all the parts make it complex enough to be rewarding when played correctly

a/ I'm focusing at the feeling - that is why I play games - and it is not right, it is not right in leveling, in PVP, and to some extent in PVE neither

b/ PVE wise - people will be generaly satisfied when they are producing competitive numbers (even with dumb one-button SB spam)

c/ you can delete 5 talent points spent in PVE spec and 7 in PVP spec and will not feel the diference - mainly because they have so negligable impact on gameplay feeling (I'm not talking about DPS numbers) - perfect opposite of proclaimed goal for those 7 points to feel special, different and useful

d/ this tree is so bloated with useless stuff that
-while leveling you have no reasonable choices where to spend talents
-in PVP half of interesting stuff will not work for you (molten core, meta CD reducing, ebon imp, infernal/doomguard boost, ..)
-in PVE people want top damage meters, that's all they care for - makes me sad (in BC I raided with 6/44/11 because SB spam was like a torture to me)

e/ it is also sad, that solving many of these problems is neither hard nor gamebreaking

[deevicoos]

I justy tried demo. I agree with the OP. That said, demo needs a buff, but solving these problems would do that without them just boosting coefficients or something.

Maybe throwing a few things into these crap talents would solve some problems. Have a talent knock time off hand of guldan's cooldown, ideally one that already exists, just tack more on. This would solve the "argh I hand isn't off cooldown for half a second I can cast a shadowbolt and lose immolate or not cast for half a second" problem and buff DPS. Give us more toys in the top tree. I'm not sure what, perhaps even if it's just lame stuff like a couple of percent more damage (or even ... make the mastery suck less.. see below.. and make it scale to our shadow and fire damage very slightly or something, I don't know, I always cringe at other people's suggestions when they get too fanciful, I think having 1 second off hand of guldan per point in a 2 point talent might be great though). Maybe reduce the range on pursuit to 0 with a couple of talents? Buff curse of doom damage slightly more? Make it amazing for demo? Maybe put all that at the top and make ancient grimoire do something to make corruption funkier, like having a chance to make your pet's next attack crit on tick (or put the HOG improve in AG and move it somewhere else)(I'm aware that this would either suck or be OP unless finely balanced, you'd probably need to make it on auto attack with a high proc rate like 30 when maxed and then nerf mana feed's bonus mana for you slightly, say 1.5/3 or 1/2).

Also you forgot this.

Mastery: It sucks. More damage for your pet who is 1/4 of your damage? More damage for a form which you have a fraction of the time. Mastery is underpowered for demo. Maybe mastery could alter our base damage a little? (see above, .25% per point might even be more than enough I don't know, but it just seems weak)

[Evillocksp]

First off ive been playing demo since BC and these new changes are absolutely amazing. Im pulling crazy aoe dps, try using felstorm, hellfire, and shadowflame in close for aoe, dont even have to be in demon form, and ull be doing 15k easily.
Also for single target dps, i just did 13500 dps on toravon last nite. Using felstorm everytime it is off cooldown. Not sure if i have a good rotation or wut, but im feeling its pretty nice right now.
And as far as mastery, with our felguard out using legion and felstorm, then our ebon imp, and a guardian, im enjoying the mastery and im thinking its helped alot since i reforged. Especially with felstorm, doing some nice dps with it in heroics and raids, AoE and single target.

[deevicoos]

Doesn't say much about how you'd do with other specs, without using searing pain I've seen 15.5K from a destro lock on festergut 10. Toravon 25 he'd break 16.5K easily. So 13500 is weak. In theory I can equal his damage but I screwed up lots of little things on fester, so I only did 13500. On 10 man, missing buffs, made a few mistakes.

Of course this is meaningless without gear. But if you've farmed 25 mans you probably have comparible or better gear than me.

Also AOE and on trash, while unimportant tends to get a much lower weighting by most people. The largest part being that on several pulls, you actually tend to do better by picking off a few single target mobs before aoeing, meaning that for these pulls as a rule of thumb the better the trash damage, the worst the player. When you have mobs which explode and kill people, or ones which bind healers, tanks and DPS and heal their allies just ignoring them can prolong a pull or even kill raid members.

[Mysta]

Disagree with hellfire bit, I've yet to run into someone who can out-aoe me. And it's fun.

[conqq]

It's a fantastic choice for all 3 tbh

You forget in a PvP sense your pet has a significant stun now, and with HoG, it'll keep them in place even longer & proc that second stun

Pet's doing some significant dmg, very useful for leveling, though I'm sad to see taunt go

Also in PvE it seems to be holding its own just fine

---------- Post added 2010-10-15 at 01:56 PM ----------

OP- you sound like you know nothing about locks after re-reading your post..

[Deleted]

Don't know, i seem to be doing pretty competitive dps atm as demonology. My lock is in 264 gear fully, pulled 15k on bosses in icc10 normal, havent really tried 25man bosses yet. With the fun rotation demo has this is nice enough for me.
I seemed to be outdps'ing equally geared destro locks but that couldve been just them also.

The great fun with demo is also aoe on trash, felstorm, immolation aura + shadowflame/hellfire i was topping 56k dps on the trash before gunship and in the plague wing.

Also how the hell is molten core underperforming? i am under the impression that mc incinerates are our strongest nuke atm apart from hog. And ancient grimoire only giving you 20k damage? i dont know what you smoked but my doomguard is doing about 3k dps when it is up, at lvl 80... Finally i had no trouble at all refreshing my immolate with hog.

Just sound slike you are talking out of your ass to me.

[Ninurta]

Honestly though unless your planning on making them a twink how long do you stay low level, and if you are planning it to be a twink afflic or destro would be better anyways. So while i agree with you it is still an arbitrary QQ.

[xuros]

I am enjoying demonologist atm. Pulling 12-16k on most icc 25 HM bosses. But I have a question about glyphs. Why is incinerate listed as a needed glyph over the FG glyph? I realize that it would increase damage for incinerate for molten core proc and all.

My problem being is that my MC proc change is shitty at best. I don't see much proc for it all while playing. So wouldn't it make sense to use the FG glyph for the constant damage from the pet?

[Horcrux]

Shrug really. I'm pulling 20k+ DPS in ICC and I'm raping everybody in PvP as Demonology. I don't understand what the fuss is about.

[Daggy1111]

Demo is actually a pretty good spec now, the only things i really agree with are the AG talent is very underwhelming, and hog refreash is kinda clunky. Other then that, the fix to both of those is a lot eaisier then changing a lot around. Also demo leveling and pvp are better then they have ever been. Were as before you were a joke, now seeing a lock in meta is a actual threat, and one people have to react to or die.

As to the fixes, jsut have Ag lower the cd on infernal and doom by 3/6 min. and have mc add 3 seconds to immo. Also as to master summoner, its not that great, but its not that bad either.

[Rasmorace]

Well as far as leveling goes demo will be frigging op. You pop demonology and put up immolation aura while you hellfire on the move and have your fel guard do that aoe spin thing he does. I can see pulling half the frigging zone with that, especially if you glyph your healthstone for when you get low on health.