Anime Chat Thread

[AceofHarts]

How is this relevant at all?

because, unless you knew that the person was based on real shit, how would you know where his powers are derived from?

i didn't know gilgamesh was based on an actual mythological person, i just knew he was insanely fucking powerful.

gilgamesh is INCREDIBLY obscure compared to say: Arthur, Medusa, Alexander the Great, Hercules. (I don't know who the lancer was, but i'd heard of Gae Bulg)

for all we knew, Gilgamesh was entirely made up. the same way Rin's rider was.
that is the point we are trying to get across.

Gilgamesh was FRIGGEN OBSCURE. not many people know about him.

if they said: hey this person is arthur, i knew who they were talking about.
if they said: hey this person is hercules, i knew who they were talking about.
hell, i even knew MEDEA (or at least OF HER, not what she was known for, but her name was familiar).
but Gilgamesh? nope.

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I thought the epic of gilgamesh was required high school reading.
anyways it's not like any of the stories are really explained in the animu

not where i went to high school.

[Radio]

because, unless you knew that the person was based on real shit, how would you know where his powers are derived from?

But that's one of the most fundamental aspects of the plot, not knowing what to expect from a heroic spirit due to a lack of information. The burden of knowledge is partially shared between the audience and the characters in this respect.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

because, unless you knew that the person was based on real shit, how would you know where his powers are derived from?

i didn't know gilgamesh was based on an actual mythological person, i just knew he was insanely fucking powerful.

gilgamesh is INCREDIBLY obscure compared to say: Arthur, Medusa, Alexander the Great, Hercules. (I don't know who the lancer was, but i'd heard of Gae Bulg)

for all we knew, Gilgamesh was entirely made up. the same way Rin's rider was.
that is the point we are trying to get across.

Gilgamesh was FRIGGEN OBSCURE. not many people know about him.

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not where i went to high school.

It wasn't where I'm from, but I've read it nonetheless (before either Fate series; yes, I'm weird).

He's supposed to be obscure anyways. That's the intention behind his whole "I use everyone else's Noble Phantasm, but mine are automatically better!" speal.

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But that's one of the most fundamental aspects of the plot, not knowing what to expect from a heroic spirit due to a lack of information. The burden of knowledge is partially shared between the audience and the characters in this respect.

Indeed. It's an immersive effect, so the audience grows with the cast, in a way.

[AceofHarts]

But that's one of the most fundamental aspects of the plot, not knowing what to expect from a heroic spirit due to a lack of information. The burden of knowledge is partially shared between the audience and the characters in this respect.

but see, Sesto is acting like we are all supposed to JUST KNOW who gilgamesh is, so we understand where his power comes from.
that isn't the case.

yes, i see now he was considered 2/3 god or whatever. but i had NO IDEA of who he even was before other than the 2 paragraphs you get in wikipedia which basically says he was a king of uruk.

[Sesto]

but see, Sesto is acting like we are all supposed to JUST KNOW who gilgamesh is, so we understand where his power comes from.
that isn't the case.

yes, i see now he was considered 2/3 god or whatever. but i had NO IDEA of who he even was before other than the 2 paragraphs you get in wikipedia which basically says he was a king of uruk.

No! I'm not acting like you are supposed to just know who he is.

I'm saying that you shouldn't complain that you don't know who he is. I've said this a bunch of times...

[Radio]

Not knowing the legend of Gilgamesh: You can still enjoy the show.
Knowing the legend of Gilgamesh: You can draw deeper/new conclusions and understandings from what is presented. For example: why Gilgamesh thinks of other humans the way he does.

[Deleted]

Guys, you are using your own ignorance to accuse a very complex story filled with references to various historic persons of inconsistency. That's a stupid argument.

Mondaijitachi is a fun anime and Izayoi, for all of his unexplained(or poorly explained) overpoweredness, is a very likeable and fun character - however as far as plot goes it simply can not compare to the giant that is Nasuverse and Fate/xxx story contained within. Fate/Zero /Stay Night, /Apocryha are all parts of a big world, and all of them are teeming with references to both real historic personalities as well as myth protagonists. The most basic premise of Servants states that they are Heroic Spirits - that is people who distinguished themselves in past(King Arthur, true Assassin, Alexander the Great...), myths, which apparently are real in this world,(Heracles, Gilgamesh, Medusa, Medea...), present(None revealed), future(Shirou) and even man-made stories(fake Assassin). You can not consider those characters as disconnected from their real world counterparts, this is simply being stubborn for no reason. One of good things about Fate/ series is that it sends you on bouts of tangential learning - you hear a bunch of historic names and, if you want to understand the story in full, you need to either already know them or look them up and learn something.

[AceofHarts]

It wasn't where I'm from, but I've read it nonetheless (before either Fate series; yes, I'm weird).

He's supposed to be obscure anyways. That's the intention behind his whole "I use everyone else's Noble Phantasm, but mine are automatically better!" speal.

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Indeed. It's an immersive effect, so the audience grows with the cast, in a way.

but see, for him to just assume that we are all supposed to know where gilgamesh's abilities are derived from is just kind of absurd. even wikipedia is lacking in information on him.

and yes, i understand that with Izayoi we have no clue where his powers come from (we aren't told, but then again, how often are we told how the heroes get there abilities, You is explained (She got a wooden talisman from a member of her family that allows her to use her gifts, though we don't know how it works); but Izayoi and Asuka (just using mondaiji as an example) are left unexplained (at least for now).

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Guys, you are using your own ignorance to accuse a very complex story filled with references to various historic persons of inconsistency. That's a stupid argument.

Mondaijitachi is a fun anime and Izayoi, for all of his unexplained(or poorly explained) overpoweredness, is a very likeable and fun character - however as far as story goes it simply can not compare to the giant that is Nasuverse and Fate/xxx story contained within. Fate/Zero /Stay Night, /Apocryha are all parts of a big world, and all of them are teeming with references to both real historic personalities as well as myth protagonists. The most basic premise of Servants states that they are Heroic Spirits - that is people who distinguished themselves in past(King Arthur, true Assassin, Alexander the Great...), myths, which apparently are real in this world,(Heracles, Gilgamesh, Medusa, Medea..., present(None revealed), future(Shirou) and even man-made stories(fake Assassin). You can not consider those characters as disconnected from their real world counterparts, this is simply being stubborn for no reason. One of good things about Fate/ series is that it sends you on bouts of tangential learning - you hear a bunch of historic names and, if you want to understand the story in full, you need to either already know them or look them up and learn something.

and i have zero intention of actually trying to compare the two. both have super strong characters and are enjoyable shows where powerhouses fight eachother.

thats the extent of me comparing the two.

[Deleted]

Dude, you don't need to know your history to watch Fate/Zero. I never said that. But complaining that a certain legend isn't explained is dumb, seeing as it is a character from history. You can go to your local library to learn more about him. You can't say the same for Izayoi.

And sure, the history is a bit different. But that has literally no relevance in our argument.

You said you need to know the history if you want to know why Gilgamesh is overpowered.
Izayoi doesn't have any explanation in the anime, and neither does Gilgamesh.
Is it really that hard to understand that if an anime uses real life myths, they should explain them to the audience. Otherwise Gilgamesh is just another character who has special snowflake powers for no real reason, one of the aspects of being a Gary Stu.
Lancer's history was explained, Rider, Berserker and Saber's histories were partially explained.
They have a legit reason to have the powers they do, since they're heroes.
Gilgamesh just shows up with some story about drinking all sorts of wine, having a lot of dosh and screwing a lot of women.
Uh... right, so who was this guy again?

How is this relevant at all?

Nobody knows this so called "obvious history" that you keep saying I should apparently know.
That's why it's relevant.

I knew about the Final Fantasy character named Gilgamesh, though I don't know if he's based off the legends.

I heard the name in Final Fantasy before. But I didn't think it was worth mentioning.

[Deleted]

and i have zero intention of actually trying to compare the two. both have super strong characters and are enjoyable shows where powerhouses fight eachother.

thats the extent of me comparing the two.

And you are still trying to accuse a perfectly consistent story of inconsistency.

[AceofHarts]

No! I'm not acting like you are supposed to just know who he is.

I'm saying that you shouldn't complain that you don't know who he is. I've said this a bunch of times...

i don't care that i don't know who he is. but to say that "well its okay for gilgamesh's abilities to be unexplained while Izayoi's aren't, just isn't a very sound arguement.

and yes they explain that gilgamesh basically predated all the heroes (but for all we know, gilgamesh's backstory could be complete fabrication).

either way. both are stupid strong characters, who eventually are explained why they are so strong, if not in great detail.

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And you are still trying to accuse a perfectly consistent story of inconsistency.

how? where do i call it inconsistent? i've said that stuff isn't explained (at least in the anime, like the fact that Archer = Shirou), and stuff like that (That you learn in the VN) but inconsistent? no. yes some of the people are made up (Archer, cough cough) and that could mislead people to think that others are made up.

[Radio]

Is it really that hard to understand that if an anime uses real life myths, they should explain them to the audience.

No, there has never been a requirement to spell it all out in the narrative medium, and there can be benefits to not spelling it all out.

[AceofHarts]

No, there has never been a requirement to spell it all out in the narrative medium, and there can be benefits to not spelling it all out.

this i agree with. they don't have to spell it out. it would be NICE for them to slide in a hint or something so you can go look stuff up if you want, but should not be required to go into there full backstory.

[Sesto]

i don't care that i don't know who he is. but to say that "well its okay for gilgamesh's abilities to be unexplained while Izayoi's aren't, just isn't a very sound arguement.

and yes they explain that gilgamesh basically predated all the heroes (but for all we know, gilgamesh's backstory could be complete fabrication).

either way. both are stupid strong characters, who eventually are explained why they are so strong, if not in great detail.

It is okay for Gilgamesh's abilities to be unexplained, seeing as we know he is a heroic spirit, the King of Heroes, and in Fate/Stay Night (I'm not sure if F/Z says this) that he predates all heroes. You are going to understand that he is powerful. And if you know the history of him, well, you know even more.

Izayoi is just a kid with insane powers that gets put into a magical world and can beat up Gods in it. There is literally nothing that hints to as why this is the case.

There is a massive difference between the two in terms of writing.

[Radio]

this i agree with. they don't have to spell it out. it would be NICE for them to slide in a hint or something so you can go look stuff up if you want, but should not be required to go into there full backstory.

To me the moment his name is revealed to be 'Gilgamesh, King of Heroes' is that 'hint'. I didn't know the legend of Gilgamesh when I watched F/SN or F/Z myself, I looked it up out of curiosity. I then went on a path of learning more about most of the heroic spirits presented in the show, and certainly enjoyed the experience.

[Deleted]

No, there has never been a requirement to spell it all out in the narrative medium, and there can be benefits to not spelling it all out.

No, but they could've at least said something.

[AceofHarts]

It is okay for Gilgamesh's abilities to be unexplained, seeing as we know he is a heroic spirit, the King of Heroes, and in Fate/Stay Night (I'm not sure if F/Z says this) that he predates all heroes. You are going to understand that he is powerful. And if you know the history of him, well, you know even more.

Izayoi is just a kid with insane powers that gets put into a magical world and can beat up Gods in it. There is literally nothing that hints to as why this is the case.

There is a massive difference between the two in terms of writing.

really? i remember there being a few flashes in the scenes hinting that a woman (likely a mother) had a hand in Izayoi's education. granted, they aren't much to go on, but the 3rd Light Novel goes into Izayoi's backround. sadly the Anime didn't make it that far.

[Radio]

Quick note: For anyone who gets frustrated by 'unsaids' in anime, do not ever watch Serial Experiments Lain.

[AceofHarts]

To me the moment his name is revealed to be 'Gilgamesh, King of Heroes' is that 'hint'. I didn't know the legend of Gilgamesh when I watched F/SN or F/Z myself, I looked it up out of curiosity. I then went on a path of learning more about most of the heroic spirits presented in the show, and certainly enjoyed the experience.

but again, i had never even heard of a "king of heroes" growing up. never heard or read about gilgamesh. for all i knew, the writers simply decided to make up there own hero, who was a hero to end all heroes type.

[Deleted]

how? where do i call it inconsistent? i've said that stuff isn't explained (at least in the anime, like the fact that Archer = Shirou), and stuff like that (That you learn in the VN) but inconsistent? no. yes some of the people are made up (Archer, cough cough) and that could mislead people to think that others are made up.

First: use some spoilers, at least on the most sensitive stuff.


If you are saying Gilgamesh's abilities are unexplained then you are accusing the story of inconsistency. Once more: you can not consider a character which is an obvious reference to our real world history or mythology in vacuum. In fact, you can not consider any story in vacuum - no matter how much or how little, any narrative is going to reach to our world for inspiration. If you do not know who Gilgamesh is, use the opportunity given to you by Fate and look him up a bit, it'll be an educational experience. The same goes for anything - Heracles, King Arthur, Medea... Tangential learning is a fun thing.

In F/SN Archer is the one and only exception for the "Servants hail from real world history and mythology" rule, and it's an exception well-explained and contained within the story - after all servants hailing from the future can not be based on history. Moreover, Archer remains an enigma with unexplained backstory until all pieces fall in place - once he's explained there's no reason to use him as an excuse to call any other servants made-up.