Elemental Shaman Pre-Raid Cataclysm BiS Lists

[Bonelazy]

Great work here, just one question:

All I've seen points towards Haste being stronger than mastery at equal levels, why the mastery heavy lists?

Edit: Also, you should probably update the purple list to include DMC:Volcano over Tendrils of Burrowing Dark in any case

Edit 2: You'd also probably do better in a mastery heavy set using Stormleather Sash over the JP belt and then replacing your shoulders with Burden of Lost Humanity (H) to keep the hit you'd lose. Both of these suggestions are for the epic set of course.

Edit 3: I'm just full of criticism today (sorry >.>) you may want to add a green gem (there's no Haste/Spirit one that I can find so Lightning Dream Emerald or Zen Dream Emerald would be the two of choice) to your gem suggestions just in case the Meta req is still wonky after they change it again.

I didn't pick Mastery over Haste deliberately. There isn't just much choice in terms of items with Spirit and without Crit.

The green gem will be added to the suggestions, thank you sir.

For the DMC: Volcano and the Sash questions, look below.

Are the epic craftables worse than the pieces on these lists?

Nice list thank you, would be really nice if you could include the craftables.

I didn't add the epic craftables and epic world drops (that includes the DMC's) to the final BiS list on purpose. This was supposed to be mainly a heroic dungeon farming objective list, along with reputation rewards, which again require only heroics. Also, all of the craftable epics utilize Chaos Orb, which requires raiding.

Epic craftables would of course be better than all the blues in these lists, just like any epic mail raid drop would be, however, there is not much point of making another list with those in, it's pretty much obvious and also out of interest for this topic, as they should be included in the raid BiS list.

Will keep this stickied so people see it, in a couple of weeks will add it to the http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ore-posting%29


Nice work!

Cheers!

[xenaros]

Thanks again Bone! Thats the second time you've saved me alot of time (first being your power auras)

[Gistwiki]

I didn't pick Mastery over Haste deliberately. There isn't just much choice in terms of items with Spirit and without Crit.

For the DMC: Volcano and the Sash questions, look below.

I didn't add the epic craftables and epic world drops (that includes the DMC's) to the final BiS list on purpose. This was supposed to be mainly a heroic dungeon farming objective list, along with reputation rewards, which again require only heroics. Also, all of the craftable epics utilize Chaos Orb, which requires raiding.

Epic craftables would of course be better than all the blues in these lists, just like any epic mail raid drop would be, however, there is not much point of making another list with those in, it's pretty much obvious and also out of interest for this topic, as they should be included in the raid BiS list.

Cheers!

Chaos Orbs are the new Frozen Orbs. They require heroics, not raiding so far as I knew. However, I get your point.

If you aren't taking Mastery over haste deliberately why not go for Ring of the Great Whale over either one of your rings, Leggings of Soothing Silence over Chaotic Wrappings, Sash of Prophecy over Belt of the Still Stream, or Scepter of power over Torturer's Mercy? Also, since it's a rep reward that doesn't require raiding, why not pick up Stump of Time over Anhuur's Hymnal?

Also, I'm willing to bet that none (though one is debatable) of the 5 craftables will be in the raid BiS list. T11 > Chest, Waistguard of Hatred > Belt, and Elementium Stormshield is close to Kingdom Heart, but the 372 version will probably eek it out. Tattooed Eyeball will be knocked out by the Valor Point epics most likely, and DMC:V will probably be beaten out by Theralion's Mirror, Heart of Ignacious, and possibly (but not likely) Bell of Enraging Resonance.

As all 5 epics and all the mats used to make them are completely obtainable pre-raid, there's really no reason not to have them in a pre-raiding list.

This is a more haste-centered setup that includes all of the craftable epics except for Tattooed Eyeball (which will join it as soon as I'm able to declare a gemming scheme with confidence that Blizzard won't kill me with the meta req rework.) It currently has 1640 Hit Rating, which is the Draenei hit cap. To easily change this to the horde hit cap, switch Periwinkle Cloak with Solar Wind Cloak.

Edit: Is that what Ritssyn's Ruminous Drape and the Signet of High Arcanist Savor are? Epic World drops? Wasn't sure if they were going to be world drops or trash epics and couldn't find information pointing in either direction.

Edit 2: I'm terrible. There are 5 craftable epics, not 3 -.-

[Bonelazy]

Chaos Orbs are the new Frozen Orbs. They require heroics, not raiding so far as I knew. However, I get your point.

If you aren't taking Mastery over haste deliberately why not go for Ring of the Great Whale over either one of your rings, Leggings of Soothing Silence over Chaotic Wrappings, Sash of Prophecy over Belt of the Still Stream, or Scepter of power over Torturer's Mercy? Also, since it's a rep reward that doesn't require raiding, why not pick up Stump of Time over Anhuur's Hymnal?

Also, I'm willing to bet that none (though one is debatable) of the 5 craftables will be in the raid BiS list. T11 > Chest, Waistguard of Hatred > Belt, and Elementium Stormshield is close to Kingdom Heart, but the 372 version will probably eek it out. Tattooed Eyeball will be knocked out by the Valor Point epics most likely, and DMC:V will probably be beaten out by Theralion's Mirror, Heart of Ignacious, and possibly (but not likely) Bell of Enraging Resonance.

As all 5 epics and all the mats used to make them are completely obtainable pre-raid, there's really no reason not to have them in a pre-raiding list.

This is a more haste-centered setup that includes all of the craftable epics except for Tattooed Eyeball (which will join it as soon as I'm able to declare a gemming scheme with confidence that Blizzard won't kill me with the meta req rework.) It currently has 1640 Hit Rating, which is the Draenei hit cap. To easily change this to the horde hit cap, switch Periwinkle Cloak with Solar Wind Cloak.

Edit: Is that what Ritssyn's Ruminous Drape and the Signet of High Arcanist Savor are? Epic World drops? Wasn't sure if they were going to be world drops or trash epics and couldn't find information pointing in either direction.

Edit 2: I'm terrible. There are 5 craftable epics, not 3 -.-

If Chaos Orb thing is true, then I can add those items as optional. Thanks for pointing that out.

For Mastery / Haste, I'm assuming that we should have a balance between the two, as Mastery is REALLY good in terms of DPS aswell as far as I know. Still, I will add the items you mentioned as optional slots.

I never said the epic craftables will be in the raiding BiS list. I said they might be there, and that they are definitely better than the blues. Not more.

Cheers

[Gistwiki]

If Chaos Orb thing is true, then I can add those items as optional. Thanks for pointing that out.

For Mastery / Haste, I'm assuming that we should have a balance between the two, as Mastery is REALLY good in terms of DPS aswell as far as I know. Still, I will add the items you mentioned as optional slots.

I never said the epic craftables will be in the raiding BiS list. I said they might be there, and that they are definitely better than the blues. Not more.

Cheers

I haven't seen anything said to the contrary on the Chaos orbs, but I'll keep looking around.

To my knowledge Haste was slightly better than Mastery at most levels unless you had a ton of haste and almost no mastery which is part of what led them to be equal at the end of Wrath.

The current setup (before gems/reforges/enchants) I've got runs 1472 Haste and 1095 Mastery, and your Purple list runs at 1579 Mastery and 960 Haste. Neither of ours are really balanced, and are more centered more around one stat or the other, which is why I asked what led you to build a Mastery-centered set in the first place.

You said that they "should" be included in the raiding BiS list. I took that to mean that you were saying they would, when it seems that you intended it to mean that they might be in there. Sorry for the misunderstanding >.>

[Bonelazy]

I haven't seen anything said to the contrary on the Chaos orbs, but I'll keep looking around.

To my knowledge Haste was slightly better than Mastery at most levels unless you had a ton of haste and almost no mastery which is part of what led them to be equal at the end of Wrath.

The current setup (before gems/reforges/enchants) I've got runs 1472 Haste and 1095 Mastery, and your Purple list runs at 1579 Mastery and 960 Haste. Neither of ours are really balanced, and are more centered more around one stat or the other, which is why I asked what led you to build a Mastery-centered set in the first place.

You said that they "should" be included in the raiding BiS list. I took that to mean that you were saying they would, when it seems that you intended it to mean that they might be in there. Sorry for the misunderstanding >.>

I just picked Mastery because I though it was better or at least of same value with Haste
I'll provide optional items as stated earlier.

By that sentence, I meant that they are not included in the current final BiS list, because they should be included in the raiding BiS list, if ever (as-in raiding BiS list is where they belong instead of pre-raiding BiS list).

[Gistwiki]

By that sentence, I meant that they are not included in the current final BiS list, because they should be included in the raiding BiS list, if ever (as-in raiding BiS list is where they belong instead of pre-raiding BiS list).

Which begs the question: Why? You won't need to raid to get them, and the mats aren't prohibitively difficult to farm provided you have a skinner and know what to kill for the new versions of the eternals. Now before I post the mats, I'd like to remind everyone watching that there is no actual "Eternal" version of the elements this expansion around. These are all the "Crystallized" version.

25 Blackened Dragonscale
6 Pristine Hide (Arctic Furs of Cata)
12 Inferno Ink
18 Pyrite Ore
55 Volatile Fire
67 Volatile Water
80 Volatile Air
36 Volatile Life
16 Volatile Earth
80 Elementium Ore
6 Chaos Orbs (Frozen Orbs of Cata)
1 Preserved Ogre Eye

That's for the Chest, the Belt, the Relic, and the base mats that you craft into the mats for the Shield. Assuming you have alts with gathering professions (and Inscription) to feed you the profession specific mats, you're looking at a few hours farming the mats (depending on where the eye can be found) and however much people are asking for so you can use their Chaos Orbs (as the orbs are BoP at the moment.) I also chose not to include the Darkmoon Card, as you can't accurately map how much you'd need to use to get the exact cards you need.

If you don't have alts to feed you the Dragonscales, the Hides, or the Ores/Bars then yes it could get pricey to buy all of them. But this is a proclaimed Best-in-Slot list. Money shouldn't really be an obstacle.

[Synaxis]

Thanks for this. c:

[Bonelazy]

Which begs the question: Why? You won't need to raid to get them, and the mats aren't prohibitively difficult to farm provided you have a skinner and know what to kill for the new versions of the eternals.

Ok it's getting confusing

I wrote that sentence back when I thought Chaos Orbs were a raid drop. I just wanted to explain what I tried to say there.

[Gistwiki]

Ok it's getting confusing

I wrote that sentence back when I thought Chaos Orbs were a raid drop. I just wanted to explain what I tried to say there.

Ah k. The mats list is still good to have I suppose >.>

[PollyO]

saved me a tone of work! THANK YOU!!

[Deleted]

What stat weightings are you using for this? My BiS list has a few changes to it.

Helm: Cowl of the Unseen World

Neck: Eye of Many Deaths

Shoulders: Burden of Lost Humanity

Back: Periwinkle Cloak

Chest: Breastplate of the Stilled Heart

Bracers: Shackles of the Betrayed

Gloves: Old Friend's Gloves

Belt: Belt of the Still Stream

Legs: Chaotic Wrappings

Feet: Dark Iron Chain Boots

Ring1: Lavishly Jeweled Ring

Ring2: Band of Singing Grass

Trinket1: Tendrils of Burrowing Dark
or: Darkmoon Card: Volcano

Trinket2: Stump of Time
or: Anhuur's Hymnal
or: Sea Star

MH: Torturer's Mercy
or: Beak of Julak-Doom

OH: Elementium Stormshield

Relic: Captured Lightning

Sorry for the terrible format, I can't post links yet...

[Gistwiki]

What weights were you using for yours that caused you not to use the epic craftables?

Edit: Other than the shield?

[twinkleblur]

hmm when i was on the beta realm i found reforging out alot of my haste was more helpful that stacking it up. it really felts nerfed hard infact a 1.69 LB wasnt even worth justifing it from a 1.87 so what i did was go for crit. crit seemed to work out better overall for dps my overall stats on my ele shaman were something like 25% crit buffed,15% haste buffed about 30% mastery and 9500 SP. infact i wasnt doing crap for dps until i subbed haste for mastery. maybe i did something wrong? but it feel like haste lost alot and is now pushed back as a vital ele stat now. but also alot of people seem to know nothing about mastery. this stat should not be underestimated at all.

[Gistwiki]

hmm when i was on the beta realm i found reforging out alot of my haste was more helpful that stacking it up. it really felts nerfed hard infact a 1.69 LB wasnt even worth justifing it from a 1.87 so what i did was go for crit. crit seemed to work out better overall for dps my overall stats on my ele shaman were something like 25% crit buffed,15% haste buffed about 30% mastery and 9500 SP. infact i wasnt doing crap for dps until i subbed haste for mastery. maybe i did something wrong? but it feel like haste lost alot and is now pushed back as a vital ele stat now. but also alot of people seem to know nothing about mastery. this stat should not be underestimated at all.

They're about equal, with haste having a slight edge on mastery. Current stat priority (according to Bink) is Hit/Spirit (before cap) > Int > Haste > Mastery > Crit > Hit/Spirit (after cap.)

Tried to get more specific numbers but have been unsuccessful. I'll be d/ling his spreadsheet to get some actual #s when I get excel back on this comp sometime in the next 7-10 days.

[Deleted]

What weights were you using for yours that caused you not to use the epic craftables?

Edit: Other than the shield?

Well the epic craftables are covered in crit, the 346 heroic items are haste/mastery, so they're really not great. Epic doesn't always mean best.

[Bonelazy]

Well the epic craftables are covered in crit, the 346 heroic items are haste/mastery, so they're really not great. Epic doesn't always mean best.

And I didn't include epic craftables on purpose. I should have stated that around a few times already. I will be doing a list with them as well.

[Gistwiki]

Well the epic craftables are covered in crit, the 346 heroic items are haste/mastery, so they're really not great. Epic doesn't always mean best.

Int > Haste or Mastery. That and reforging SHOULD make up for them having crit. That's why I asked what your values were.

Edit: For some odd reason I thought there was so much more int they surpassed the socket bonuses. Stilled Heart > Twilight Scale for sure now >.>

Edit: For comparisons on the rest of them:

Yellow Smoke Pendant vs Eye of Many Deaths (Assuming 20 Int/20 haste blue quality gem in EoMD, Reforge Crit -> Haste on YSP, and no reforge on EoMD)

Yellow Smoke Pendant - +32 Int, +76 Crit, +18 Mastery

EoMD - +63 Haste

Close, but the 32 Int should push Yellow Smoke over the top (again, what're your weights?)

Earthmender's Boots vs Dark Iron Chain Boots (Assumes +40 int gems in both, reforge Mastery -> Haste on DICB, and reforge Crit -> Haste on EMB)

Earthmender's - +28 Int, +19 Spirit, +8 Haste, +89 Crit

Dark Iron - +78 Mastery

This is closer than the last. I'm inclined to say Earthmender's, but that's iffy and I'm biased. Would rather have weights before calling this one.

Stormleather Sash is a bit different. It'll be BiS for a Draenei setup b/c you won't need the hit from the belt. For a Horde setup it'd require switching a Haste/Mastery piece to a Haste/Spirit or Mastery/Spirit piece. In the setup I use I change Periwinkle Cloak for Solar Wind Cloak.

Now, the set you (totem) presented is already at 1786 Hit total, which is 44 over the horde hit cap, so losing the 38 hit from dropping Still Stream and picking up Solar Wind isn't going to put you under the hit cap. So the task is to figure out the total gain/loss from switching the two pieces excluding the spirit.

Stormleather Sash/Solar Wind vs Periwinkle/Still Stream

Loss from Periwinkle -> Solar Wind - -112 Mastery

Still Stream -> Stormleather Sash (assuming +40 int gem in Still stream, Crit -> Haste reforge on Stormleather) - +8 Int, +6 Mastery, +75 Haste, +113 Crit.

So +106 Mastery for Periwinkle/Still Stream, and +8 Int, +75 Haste, and +113 Crit for Stormleather/Solar Wind

This one looks like a solid win for Stormleather/Solar Wind.

So overall:

Blue chest wins.

Epic Belt wins, but requires a different cloak unless you're a spacegoatsquidmabob.

Epic Neck looks like a win, but want weights to be sure.

Boots are close. I'm leaning towards the epic, but I can't be sure without weights.

[Deleted]

As I said it's extremely close, I lose some of the spirit off the gear by reforging the bracers for examplle, which further complicates things. Like you I just compared stats and made gut feelings rather than using any stat weights as I simply don't really know what they are atm.

[Gistwiki]

Going over the stats and including reforges it looks like I may have been a bit hasty in declaring the winner on the chest >.>

Stilled Heart (with 2 +40 INT gems): 342 Int, 172 Haste, 192 Mastery

Twilight Scale (with Crit -> Mastery Reforge): 341 Int, 216 Haste, 94 Mastery, 140 Crit

Stilled Heart: +1 Int, +98 Mastery

Twilight Scale: +44 Haste, +140 Crit

Now lets use completely unreasonable stat weights that heavily favor Stilled Heart.

Int = 1
Mastery = 1
Haste = .75
Crit = .5

Stilled Heart: 1+98 = 99

Twilight Scale: (44*.75) + (140*.5) = (33 + 70) = 103

Twilight scale wins just barely, and with more realistic stat weights where haste is slightly above mastery and crit is closer to both, Twilight Scale will come out even farther ahead.

Applying these weights to the boots/belt comparisons above (to favor the blues over the epics) you get 78.5 - 78 (Epic boots winning) for the boots, 120.75 - 106 (Epic Belt/Spirit cloak combo winning) and then switching haste with mastery in the above weights to favor EoMD over Yellow Smoke Pendant you get 83.5 - 63 in favor of the epic neck.

I'd want definite DEP #s before saying it with 100% certainty, but the epics are certainly LOOKING much stronger than the blues.