Valor Points Turning Into Justice Points

[Herecius]

Summarized: Good for alts, insanely bad for tiered progressing.

I've never truly understood this argument, to be honest. Those who are progressing through the tiers will find virtually no difference in what they are doing, because by the time the next tier comes in, they should not even need anything from the vendors anymore. All of the stuff that's rolled back to the justice point vendor has no real use for them.

Progression guilds should be unaffected, unless it somehow upsets someone that other people that they don't play with can get gear almost as good as they can months later.

[nnelson54]

and without getting into too much a rant this giving epics with JP is = to giving every team a trophy on the soccer league, even if the team never won a game or even scored a point. Some would say they should deserve something for trying but that is in imo a terrible decision. Since when is trying a worthwhile endeavor if nothgin is accomplished?

Like all analogies that are attempted on the internet, that is a terrible one. They're not being given anything of note. They will always be a tier behind.

While you're in T11, they'll still be in heroic blues inspecting you in Orgrimmar going, 'omg i want ur stuff'

While you're in T12, they'll still be in T11 inspecting you in Orgrimmar going, 'omg i want ur stuff'

[Thundertom]

Despite Cata raids being more vanila-like, there is still no tier progression... which is imo, bad.

There was tier progression in Vanilla?

IMO No. You had to be in the right guild, preferably an awesomely large one. But you didn't need to go though all tiers when your guild was already in AQ40.

[Aiurwyn]

Like all analogies that are attempted on the internet, that is a terrible one. They're not being given anything of note. They will always be a tier behind.

While you're in T11, they'll still be in heroic blues inspecting you in Orgrimmar going, 'omg i want ur stuff'

While you're in T12, they'll still be in T11 inspecting you in Orgrimmar going, 'omg i want ur stuff'

Kinda how everyone was running around in Dal with T10?

[skyesfury]

In Vanilla, when you joined a guild that had AQ20/40 on farm, guess what tiers you skipped.... 1 and most of 2. Tier skipping isn't new, it's just easier to see now.

[nnelson54]

Kinda how everyone was running around in Dal with T10?

That was a design flaw that Blizzard has acknowledged and said they'll be avoiding in the future that has nothing what so ever to do with anything being discussed. They knew they messed up by having ICC out for over a year with no new content. At some point over that timeline the majority of players are going to have the top tier.

And even then, everyone had T10 towards the end... but it was the shitty 251. There is a huge jump from that to the 277 heroic versions.

[Deleted]

The problem with the old tiered systems was you had a lot of people doing the old raids and hardly any doing the latest content as in vanilla almost no-one saw original Naxx and a lot of guilds/pugs were doing Molten Core Zul Gurrub etc. Blizz rightly thought that it was a huge waste of resources making all this content for just a handful of people and wanted to do something about it.
Turnover in guilds was also a nightmare, if you werent on the cutting edge you had your best players leave for guilds that were higher than yours, so you were constantly going back to previous raids for gearing new recruits. This must also have been recognised as a problem by Blizz.
So they introduce badge gear to help gear for current raids, which in theory would help the above two groups, the problem with which is when you have a whole tier of just under cutting edge gear available from facerolling 20 min heroics like in wrath, that's where effort will gravitate to. No-one will run any lower tier raids because they are completely obsolete. If you didn't see them the first time, well tough luck, because outside of getting it as the weekly quest raid you wont be seeing anyone run it anytime soon.
Instead of people not seeing the new content you get people not seeing the old, or you get people just seeing the same set of 5 man dungeons on heroic mode over and over.
Without buffing the drops in the old raids no one will want to go there as long as there is better gear available for less effort invested. Maybe some 'progression' mode switch on the dungeon like a heroic mode that buffs the mobs/bosses and allows them to drop the badge gear and current tier-1 gear.
I'm guessing that it will be much the same as wrath as raiders will do the raids and work on heroic modes, non raiders will bash out as many heroics as they can and pug a weekly if possible and the old tiers will become redundant as the new ones roll out. I came back to WoW very late in wrath after raiding hard in vanilla and TBC and burning out and found it surprisingly easy to grab current gear with heroics. It just became so tiresome griding out points so that I had the required GS to get into a pug raid in ICC, so tiresome I didnt bother as Cataclysm was just around the corner.

TLR Tiered raiding system was broken, blizz fixed it but in doing so broke it in other ways and I think we're stuck with it as it is.

[Grable]

There was tier progression in Vanilla?

IMO No. You had to be in the right guild, preferably an awesomely large one. But you didn't need to go though all tiers when your guild was already in AQ40.

In Vanilla, when you joined a guild that had AQ20/40 on farm, guess what tiers you skipped.... 1 and most of 2. Tier skipping isn't new, it's just easier to see now.

Yes, there was insane tier progression in vanilla. You two are talking about individuals(for example in tier 1) that join guilds who are already farming/doing a certain tier (take AQ40 for example). Now if you put the ENTIRE raid of t1 in AQ40, they wouldn't be/weren't as successful. You needed T2. And there was only one way to get T2 - in BWL, which required to have a atleast a few epics... and you weren't able to buy those epics from vendors once BWL was introduced, now were you?

[skyesfury]

Yes, there was insane tier progression in vanilla. You two are talking about individuals(for example in tier 1) that join guilds who are already farming/doing a certain tier (take AQ40 for example). Now if you put the ENTIRE raid of t1 in AQ40, they wouldn't be/weren't as successful.

That doesn't change the fact that tier skipping isn't something new.

[Grable]

That doesn't change the fact that tier skipping isn't something new.

I never said it was new. I just said it was bad. IMO

And it was brutal in vanilla, not many BWL/AQ40 guilds took people in blues, you had to be either: family/friend related or extremely lucky. Therefore tier skipping was really rare.

[Thundertom]

Yes, there was insane tier progression in vanilla. You two are talking about individuals(for example in tier 1) that join guilds who are already farming/doing a certain tier (take AQ40 for example). Now if you put the ENTIRE raid of t1 in AQ40, they wouldn't be/weren't as successful. You needed T2. And there was only one way to get T2 - in BWL, which required to have a atleast a few epics... and you weren't able to buy those epics from vendors once BWL was introduced, now were you?

You couldn't buy those items from vendors, no. Instead you afkd while the rest of your guild got the job done.

The game has changed I guess. Progress is no longer measured by gear, but more so by achievements and hard modes.

[Raztalin]

While progression is fine, let them choose if they want go through old raids and dungeons or not... noone should be forced to do old content if they don't want

Agree.

What some people are maybe not comprehending is that some players level characters to fill roles in raid groups, not as a secondary toon to their first. Our guild has the Bring the player not the character attitude, so we all try and have a toon to fill each role, and we help each of them gear as quickly as possible so we can always have an ideal Raid composition.

If possible people will use their prefered toon, but at the same time no one is adverse to using one of their others to make sure the Raid can go ahead, and have a higher chance of succes.

So in this instance where Tiers are involved; I personally am glad that I can get my next toon to a level where I can help the guild progress sooner rather than later.

Each to their own and all that, people will always dissagree, thats the human nature!!

[Hallany]

Everyone can choose if he/she wants see old content or not... choice is good, forcing someone do do something just for the sake of some tiered progression/seeing every content in the game is bad.

I like old content - I have Classic Raider, Outland Raider, Outland Dungeon Hero, and have done most of the earlier LK tiers. Having the freedom to do them in the order I can find people to play with is much more workable than having an enforced phasing. I would have seen much *less* older (as well as newer) content if they had mandated that I do each raid in the order it was released.

[Xs]

The system works fine, its a joy for people rerolling alts and allows people to catch up to current content which gives the current content guilds access to a larger pool of people

The only thing in my mind they need to do to fix one last major problem people seem to have, is make gear downgraded through this system downgrade to blue, to give it a system similar to TF2's vintage system
Unfortunately I don't see this happening until 5.0 but we can always hope

There is only one problem with my argument, which I've had pointed out to me since spreading it around
Enchanting Crystals.
This is a minor problem though which could be solved by giving heroic blues a 5% drop chance of a crystal or something

(Credits to TotalBiscuit for spreading the original idea)

[skyesfury]

I never said it was new. I just said it was bad. IMO

And it was brutal in vanilla, not many BWL/AQ40 guilds took people in blues, you had to be either: family/friend related or extremely lucky. Therefore tier skipping was really rare.

Very true about joining guilds like that. I got lucky on my warlock. Was friends with a warrior who leveled beside me most of the way and we got to know each other pretty well. He put in a good word for me and I got to see AQ40 for a couple months (until the all too common guild drama ripped it apart...)

[Ryerson]

What people have to understand is with nerfing these points comes the fact that old content becomes completely useless.

Let's put an example out there, Naxx/Ulduar. Other to breeze through drakes, how many people actually went back for gear after they were able to farm heroic for t9, then eventually t10. Even ToC became quickly outdated in a lot of players eyes due to the ability to farm full t10 in an afternoon.,

My two sense, is that a point system like this takes content out of the game, so people who complain that there wasen't enough content that joined halfway through the expack don't have to necessarily go back to these raids that came out at the start.

[Hypnozis]

The one thing that appears to have not been stated so far is that from my experience so far the heroics are pretty mini raid like themselves, and unless maybe you have a new guild member who 3-4 other people in t11 run them through heroics, you wont be able to just farm heroics to get gear with a normal pug because just hitting 85 or even being in full heroic blue gear with some epics mixed in, the heroic dungeons will still kick your but some of the bosses will still one shot people who don't know how not to stand in things or don't know how to interrupt. Also you figure that for people to get one item of the new Valor Points items when they come out it will take probably about 2 weeks and thats if you do at least one heroic a day or if you enter into a raid and then you are capped for the week. I still don't think we will be seeing pugs forming like we did in wotlk and just down all of the fights. Unless majority of the pug is made up of a guild who are all on vent together and able to coordinate the bosses with other raid members.

---------- Post added 2010-12-14 at 09:17 AM ----------

What people have to understand is with nerfing these points comes the fact that old content becomes completely useless.

Let's put an example out there, Naxx/Ulduar. Other to breeze through drakes, how many people actually went back for gear after they were able to farm heroic for t9, then eventually t10. Even ToC became quickly outdated in a lot of players eyes due to the ability to farm full t10 in an afternoon.,

My two sense, is that a point system like this takes content out of the game, so people who complain that there wasen't enough content that joined halfway through the expack don't have to necessarily go back to these raids that came out at the start.

I think TOC gear died so quickly because blizzard realized they made a mistake with all the gear looking the same for plate, mail, leather and cloth

[Pyronius]

I kind of like the way they are doing the points now.. at the very least helm and shoulders still come from tokens which is what you see on people anyways.

Everyone had ICC gear because...after a year of points from a daily, easy weeklies and having TWO raid lockouts to pug and get whatever scraps you could for points... well it just adds up.

While I do like people having to do progression, and if there was a reasonable amount of it that had to be done it would be fine. However:

1. If you are playing with your guild/friends/switching mains: You require 4-10 hours of 9 or 24(+/-) other peoples time to catch up.
2. Weekly point limits and only allowing people to pickup the old teir of gear from farming heroics is awesome, it will still take them some time to catch up to your previous teir of armor
3. Helms and Shoulders are tokens, so you still have to do progression to get recognition of current content


I like the current system but I would have probably gone one step further and made all armor token drops again. (I like tokens because they were halfway in between valor point loot and specific piece drops(MC/BWL) allowing for less wasted loot.

While I do like stuff taking more effort that Wotlk for sure, and I lived through 5 years of raiding in EQ and Vanilla/BC/Wotlk progression... I think BC current progression mixed with Wotlk catching up ability is about perfect.