Serious Discussion on DW tanking

[SSHA778]

With a melee weapon with a swing speed slower than the bosses melee swing speed, 1 point in Scent of Blood is only required, as you are not able to use any more than 1 stack of SoB at any point, and your runic power gain is (1.5/DK-swing-speed) runic power per second, assuming all your white hits are hits.

The stack cap on SoB is 3 regardless of talent points. The #charges per proc is the only part that varies.

For a boss swing time of 1.8s slowed (this is normal), and unmodified weapon swing speeds of 3.6 (2H) and 2.6 (DW), with 10% haste from the raid buffs, and no hit/expertise outside of talents, this is the point-breakdown:

2H:
1/3 SoB: .7929 RP/sec
2/3 SoB: 1.3292 RP/sec (67.6% increase from 1/3)
3/3 SoB: 1.5002 RP/sec (12.9% increase from 2/3)

DW (has NoCS):
1/3 SoB: .7876 RP/sec
2/3 SoB: 1.5043 RP/sec (91.0% increase from 1/3)
3/3 SoB: 1.9398 RP/sec (29.0% increase from 2/3)

I'm not going to change the boss swing speed because in a raid setting, minus Baleroc, that's a constant. The diminishing returns on SoB should be pretty apparent. 2/3 is without question the minimum you should take.

If you were trying to do a comparison between Butchery and SoB, you would need to do it on a point-for point basis, so .2 RP/sec per point for Butchery.

edit: Even though at 3/3 points for both DW generates 29.3% more RP from SoB, what you need to remember is that the difference in total RP generated isn't that large. At 3/3 using these tests again, the mean difference in DS/min is .1979 in favor of DW. I've shown that that is statistically insignificant already.

[Firebert]

I wasn't trying to do a comparison. I was trying to show how DW feels to be far more rune-engorged than 2H in my experience. And it is, and around the amount I thought it was (30ish% more), but saying that DWing, with NoCS and 3/3 SoB only generates 1 extra Rune Strike every 20.6207 seconds as opposed to 2Hering with 3/3 SoB generating 1 extra Rune Strike every 26.6631 seconds, or 2Hering with 2/3SoB generating 1 extra Rune Strike every 30.0933 seconds, makes the talent lose a whole lot of its lustre from what playing DW 3/3SoB feels like.

Maybe because you don't actually get the Runic Power in a rate like Butchery, but it's burstiness and higher proccing with DW and maxed SoB makes it feel more like a contributor to (what feels like) vastly more DS/minute.

Plus I thought that most bosses swing at speed 3.00 and 1H tanking swords were in the 2.00 to 2.50 region. /facepalm

[SSHA778]

And it is, and around the amount I thought it was (30ish% more), but saying that DWing, with NoCS and 3/3 SoB only generates 1 extra Rune Strike every 20.6207 seconds as opposed to 2Hering with 3/3 SoB generating 1 extra Rune Strike every 26.6631 seconds, or 2Hering with 2/3SoB generating 1 extra Rune Strike every 30.0933 seconds, makes the talent lose a whole lot of its lustre from what playing DW 3/3SoB feels like.

Well, I can't bring math to argue against a feeling, because those two fundamentally don't mix. If you enjoy the game how you play it, then that's good, because it's a game. Although, I can modify my code to graph RP addition (not cumulative) as a function of time.

However, on another note, your units are wrong. The quantities listed have the units of RP/sec, not sec/RP.

30RP 3/3 2H SoB:
(1.5002RP / 1sec)^(-1) * 30RP = 19.97sec

30RP 3/3 DW SoB:
(1.9398RP / 1sec)^(-1) * 30RP = 15.47sec

[Firebert]

Sigh, I fail.

So, as it stands, switching from 2H to DW:
*Decreases DPS (this being an issue is undetermined, but the general consensus is that it is a drawback)
==> Decreases threat (this being an issue is undetermined)
*Negligibly modifies damage taken
*Negligibly modifies self-healing done
*Negligibly modifies effective CTC
*Increases the RP extracted from SoB by anywhere up to 30%
==> Increases the rate you gain RP
==> Increases the runes you gain from Runic Empowerment
==> Negligibly increases the amount of Death Strikes per second (advantage, but probably not as large as the DPS drawback)
(or makes cooldowns requiring RP to trigger easier, reducing the delay required to pool RP, or makes Lichborne self-healing more potent, all negligibly)
*Requires an extra drop/more JP/more VP to gear up (drawback)

And, for 4.3 only:
*Having a self-healing proc when wielding at least one Souldrinker as opposed to a DPS proc on Gurthalak. (probably negligible advantage considering how much Mastery we lose).

It's still viable, but still not optimal. People still won't take you to Normal raids because of the latter, but forgetting the former.

[InfernalKatana]

I personally think that while certain specs are viable and could be used in a raid, if I were the one putting the group together, I would want the most optimal specs out of the people I brought, bringing a raid full of optimal specs (in my opinion) has a greater chance of success than bringing a raid full of people that have simply viable specs.

[Firebert]

I personally think that while certain specs are viable and could be used in a raid, if I were the one putting the group together, I would want the most optimal specs out of the people I brought, bringing a raid full of optimal specs (in my opinion) has a greater chance of success than bringing a raid full of people that have simply viable specs.

A little offtopic, but does this mean you would ONLY take for DPS (according to http://www.simulationcraft.org/422/Raid_T12H.html):
*Arcane Mages
*Demonology Locks
*Combat Rogues
*Elemental Shamen
*Marksman Hunter
*DW Frost Death Knight
*Feral Druid
*2H Fury Warrior
seeing as they are the most optimal specs for DPS for their class?

[InfernalKatana]

Only? no, but I strongly encourage it, I use dps bot more than simulation craft though. The only sub-optimal spec we have in our 10 man is a Mut rogue, and that's just because we haven't had a heroic combat weapon drop yet.

[Skygoneblue]

Anyway, back on track...

I'm no mathematician, so I'll politely ask from afar and hope that someone can answer intelligently.

Have we considered glyphs? From Firebert's list above, the only disadvantage that seems at all statistically significant is the loss of DPS from going DW. But, thinking about my current 2H setup...

Glyph of Death Strike - Damage
Glyph of Rune Strike - Crit (Damage)
Glyph of Heart Strike - Damage

Obviously, despite them being our three main strikes, going DW will make each of them do a significantly smaller portion of our total DPS and Threat. Are there other glyphs that could help compensate?

Glyph of Frost Fever for example. If we take 2 points in Unholy to get our disease time to 29s, that's a constantly DoT on our target that is being buffed every tick by our glyph.

Glyph of Death and Decay? We obviously want to use Unholy runes to Death Strike, but just spitballing here... Would an Unholy subspec (3/3 Morbidity) and a D&D glyph add a significant amount of damage?

I'm not expecting either of these to amount to what a 2H spec would, but I haven't seen this particular question come up yet.

[Firebert]

Anyway, back on track...

I'm no mathematician, so I'll politely ask from afar and hope that someone can answer intelligently.

Have we considered glyphs? From Firebert's list above, the only disadvantage that seems at all statistically significant is the loss of DPS from going DW. But, thinking about my current 2H setup...

I've gone to Death Coil (for Lichborne healing) and Death and Decay (for a better AoE effective taunt). I've kept Death Strike due to the increased RP gain and that Crit is useless for tanking (and I feel that tank DPS is not something I should be pursuing)....

Everything for my character's in a flux considering this thread and I'm waiting for 4.3, so everything is kind of a mess for me.

[SSHA778]

Have we considered glyphs? From Firebert's list above, the only disadvantage that seems at all statistically significant is the loss of DPS from going DW. But, thinking about my current 2H setup...

Glyph of Death Strike - Damage
Glyph of Rune Strike - Crit (Damage)
Glyph of Heart Strike - Damage

Obviously, despite them being our three main strikes, going DW will make each of them do a significantly smaller portion of our total DPS and Threat. Are there other glyphs that could help compensate?

I wouldn't rely on any of them.

Frost Fever does 31+.06325*AP damage baseline (tested AP coeff. today). At 20k AP, it should be ticking for 1296 / 3sec. Taking 20% of 20 ticks (60/3=20), and dividing by a minute, that's a 432 DPS increase.

Glyph of DS, even when not deliberately pooling RP, should be a larger DPS increase than that. For DW, Glyph of IT might do barely more DPS on single-target than Glyph of HS if you have 100% disease uptime. I wouldn't consider using it.

Using i378 Mandible at 20k AP,
((1004+1866)/2+2.4*(20000/14))*1.75+1433 = 9944 damage
Double disease (which reminds me that I forgot these in the sticky; need to edit): 12928

With expected crit damage at 5% crit: 9944*.95 + 19889*.05 = 10441
Double disease with expected crit: 12928*.95 + 25855*.05 = 13574

30% extra damage from glyph would be applied to every term, so this is what you'd end up with:

Expected HS (no disease): 13573 damage (3123 diff @ 6/min = 313 DPS)
2 diseases: 17646 damage (4072 diff @ 6/min = 407 DPS)

Pretty negligible difference. You would be much better off using Glyph of HS simply because of it's AoE power / burst threat.

Using DnD should be an obvious no-brainer. A DnD costs you a DS. That's not worth any potential DPS gain, if any.

[Firebert]

Using DnD should be an obvious no-brainer. A DnD costs you a DS. That's not worth any potential DPS gain, if any.

Except that I picked the glyph for its utility and not its damage, and D&D costs you half a DS.

[pepizaraus]

I've gone to Death Coil (for Lichborne healing) and Death and Decay (for a better AoE effective taunt). I've kept Death Strike due to the increased RP gain and that Crit is useless for tanking (and I feel that tank DPS is not something I should be pursuing)....

Everything for my character's in a flux considering this thread and I'm waiting for 4.3, so everything is kind of a mess for me.

I've been skimming this thread trying to find numbers, what exactly is the DPS loss/gain from 2H to DW? On rag, stopping my attacks and only hitting DS to build up BS stacks while the other tank has the boss and dealing with crappy warrior threat I can easily maintain 13k DPS while using DS for mitigation almost purely. I have been exploring this option but I have always told my main raids tanks to pour out as much DPS as the 2 of them can while not screwing with who has threat as especially on progression fights, our 2 tanks can easily add up to 1 DPS.

[Firebert]

I've been skimming this thread trying to find numbers, what exactly is the DPS loss/gain from 2H to DW?

I think SSHA778 put it around a 15% loss or so.

[SSHA778]

Except that I picked the glyph for its utility and not its damage, and D&D costs you half a DS.

It wasn't directed at you. This is the quote that should have been associated with it:

Glyph of Death and Decay? We obviously want to use Unholy runes to Death Strike, but just spitballing here... Would an Unholy subspec (3/3 Morbidity) and a D&D glyph add a significant amount of damage?

I don't remember the 15% loss part, but I can figure something out within a few minutes, just comparing raw strike damage.

edit: If it was from a post a while ago, disregard it.

[Skygoneblue]

Just because I like throwing wrenches...

What about Rune of the Fallen Crusader? How does the 3% heal + 15% Strength (which adds avoidance and DPS) stack up against static buffs provided by 2/4% Parry or Health/Stam? How would dual RotFC look?

[Firebert]

Just because I like throwing wrenches...

What about Rune of the Fallen Crusader? How does the 3% heal + 15% Strength (which adds avoidance and DPS) stack up against static buffs provided by 2/4% Parry or Health/Stam? How would dual RotFC look?

We lose 2% or 4% parry (354 or 707 parry rating) for 15% strength (some parry) and a self-heal...
Maybe one rune RotFC, but not both.

[Atrea]

There still is the threat of "parry haste" even while it is removed on big-hitters afaik it's still around for most of the bosses, meaning with DW you have to account for more incoming damage due to parry-hastening the bosses attacks.

I don't know if this has been addressed, but there hasn't been parry-haste since Sindragosa.

[Firebert]

I don't know if this has been addressed, but there hasn't been parry-haste since Sindragosa.

Recent parry-haste thread, all bosses after do not have parry-haste: http://avengingwrathy.wordpress.com/...o-parry-haste/

[Deleted]

I feel that tank DPS is not something I should be pursuing

I'm still lost as to how people are rationalising this/justifying it to themselves. Going out of your way to deal feeble damage for no real gain strikes me as bordering on deliberate dereliction of duty.

I really feel the pro-dual wield camp are downplaying this because there's no acceptable way to just flat out say "yeah a dps is going to have to find several k extra for no good reason".

[Firebert]

I'm still lost as to how people are rationalising this/justifying it to themselves. Going out of your way to deal feeble damage for no real gain strikes me as bordering on deliberate dereliction of duty.

I really feel the pro-dual wield camp are downplaying this because there's no acceptable way to just flat out say "yeah a dps is going to have to find several k extra for no good reason".

I don't know how to respond to this, because I don't know how much DPS I'm giving up, because I don't know how much DPS I'm doing for either 2H or DW, because I don't really care about my DPS. And I probably should. But I'm not raiding endgame (in fact I'm not raiding at all until 4.3), and it's very much viable for Heroics, so it doesn't bother me much. But come 4.3, if DW is only a 5% DPS drop from 15k (750DPS, optimistic), asking at least 5 DPS classes to come up with 150 more DPS each isn't a problem (especially as we're seeing DPS hit over 38k next patch).

If DW is a 30% DPS drop from 20k (6kDPS, pessimistic/realistic), asking for at least 5 DPS classes to come up with over 1k more DPS each is definitely a problem (for 25-man with 2 tanks and 6 healers it's negligible in each case (~1% of your DPS for this case)). To me, this makes DW more viable in 25-man as compared to 10-man, as the DPS loss matters less.

And increased Runic Power generation from SoB isn't a "no good reason". But so far that's the only DW advantage we've come across (from what I can gather).