Why are people so negative to renew?

[Caetlan]

Please, QUIT calling it a CAP. The 5-tick renew haste amount is a GOAL, not a CAP. More haste is good, less haste is bad. You don't cap your haste, you hit a goal amount.

Did you read my entire post? Or just the first line? I suggest you finish the whole thing before you start yelling. I am very much aware of the fact that it's not a true cap. That is, however, the term that's currently being thrown around.

[Kelesti]

Quoted for truth, this is how you use renew.

Yes it is. But it goes to show perfectly against gearing to 516 haste and stopping is, something zenkai is a very vocal proponent (is that the right word?) of. The second Renew is refreshed once, that gearpoint effectively becomes useless.

Having more haste gives more wiggle room between Serenity cooldowns for the refresh to go off smoothly.

By all means, zenkai's right in this example, but take note of who you quote.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 01:06 PM ----------

Did you read my entire post? Or just the first line? I suggest you finish the whole thing before you start yelling. I am very much aware of the fact that it's not a true cap. That is, however, the term that's currently being thrown around.

The current term is "minimum", which in and of itself says what number you're at beyond it is always helpful, whereas "cap" has different context.

[rabbimojo]

No one hates Renew. At least not that I've met. It's simply too high in mana to be spammed a lot. If you're not using it on tanks and stuff then you're doing it wrong. Very, very wrong. And yes, Caetlan, the problem is with it being called a 'cap' by so many. You need at least that 12.5%, you want more. Calling it a 'cap' implies that you don't want any more than 12.5%, which is blatantly wrong.

File this in the same bin as "it's not a rotation, it's a priority queue", "casual just means you play less, it doesn't mean you're bad", and various other language issues. Tank theorycrafters fought against uncrittable being labeled the "defense cap" for years to no avail.

In any case, the point that you get an extra tick of renew isn't a big deal except insofar as it creates a bigger window, as Kelesti mentioned. Personally, I think that's a qualitatively different enough heal experience that I prefer to have the extra tick than not, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone else feeling similarly.

My perspective on it is fairly simple: Healing is about triage. I may cast renew with the intent to refresh it, but I may not have the available time when it's needed. Getting the haste for that extra tick makes it considerably more likely that the refresh can happen, but importantly, it also keeps renew from being a poor mana investment if I decide to drop my plan to refresh it.

I feel that's valuable enough that if you're at or above halfway to the haste you'd need for that tick, you should just go ahead and push to it.

[Kelesti]

My response actually bears more in mind with the spells you are casting between Renew. The 5th tick is pointless. You get it in 333's without really trying. It doesn't make up a significant enough part of your healing to stop haste there, but people hear "cap" and see EJ saying "go mastery" because a spreadsheet says it's potentially higher recount numbers.

Haste let's you triage, with or without Renew. 516 is gimping yourself. Hard.

[luminae]

In any case, the point that you get an extra tick of renew isn't a big deal except insofar as it creates a bigger window, as Kelesti mentioned. Personally, I think that's a qualitatively different enough heal experience that I prefer to have the extra tick than not, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone else feeling similarly.

interesting sentiment, but the one flaw i see is that renew's extra tick doesnt extend the duration of renew, it speeds up how quickly it ticks....so you haven't gotten a longer window, timewise. you have gotten more healing done for the same mana cost, but you still have the same window within which to get a direct healing spell onto the target while in chakra:heal to refresh renew.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 08:36 PM ----------

.. What's echo has anything to do with renew? We are talking just in Holy? (as that's *the* new spec?) Or in general heal vs renew?

he isn't talking about echoes of light, he is talking about being in chakra:heal and having a direct heal cast on a target refresh the duration of renew on the target

[rabbimojo]

interesting sentiment, but the one flaw i see is that renew's extra tick doesnt extend the duration of renew, it speeds up how quickly it ticks....so you haven't gotten a longer window, timewise. you have gotten more healing done for the same mana cost, but you still have the same window within which to get a direct healing spell onto the target while in chakra:heal to refresh renew.

Haste reduces the duration of HoTs/DoTs prior to getting that extra tick. Renew starts at 12 seconds. As you get more haste, it drops to just about 9.6, then bounces back up to 12. If you're below the additional tick haste, you're cutting 2 seconds off of your renews. It isn't costing you any actual healing, but the spell has to be on the target for it to be refreshed (unless I missed something big). That's what I meant.

I haven't paid close enough attention to haste mechanics to know whether that benefit translates to the post-refresh spell; I don't think it does. There's some weirdness in how refreshes work.

---------- Post added 2010-12-22 at 01:01 PM ----------

My response actually bears more in mind with the spells you are casting between Renew. The 5th tick is pointless. You get it in 333's without really trying. It doesn't make up a significant enough part of your healing to stop haste there, but people hear "cap" and see EJ saying "go mastery" because a spreadsheet says it's potentially higher recount numbers.

Haste let's you triage, with or without Renew. 516 is gimping yourself. Hard.

Well, I'm not arguing for intentionally aiming for it, just that it's a useful point with some qualitative changes to snap to as your gearing progresses. In the big picture it's relatively trivial.

[Evrx]

Haste reduces the duration of HoTs/DoTs prior to getting that extra tick. Renew starts at 12 seconds. As you get more haste, it drops to just about 9.6, then bounces back up to 12.

You have the right concept but the wrong numbers I believe. I don't think it is possible for the duration to ever drop down to 9.6 seconds. The duration slides from 12 seconds to ~10.5 seconds as haste increases and then goes back up to 12 seconds at the haste breakpoints.

This is because you get an extra tick of Renew whenever you speed up Renew enough so that the duration is shortened by about half of a nominal unhasted tick of renew (~1.5 seconds). This is why the haste breakpoints occur at 12.5% and 37.5%.

There is an excellent article on the type h for heals blog that goes into HOT duration in much greater detail.

[rabbimojo]

You have the right concept but the wrong numbers I believe. I don't think it is possible for the duration to ever drop down to 9.6 seconds. The duration slides from 12 seconds to ~10.5 seconds as haste increases and then goes back up to 12 seconds at the haste breakpoints.

This is because you get an extra tick of Renew whenever you speed up Renew enough so that the duration is shortened by about half of a nominal unhasted tick of renew (~1.5 seconds). This is why the haste breakpoints occur at 12.5% and 37.5%.

There is an excellent article on the type h for heals blog that goes into HOT duration in much greater detail.

Certainly likely - for the bulk of the Cata Beta I was playing chars that don't care much about *OTs so I skimmed the mechanics. I'll check it out, thanks.

[Kelesti]

Either way, it's a great writeup for Druids, but irrelevant for Holy Priests.

[rabbimojo]

Certainly likely - for the bulk of the Cata Beta I was playing chars that don't care much about *OTs so I skimmed the mechanics. I'll check it out, thanks.

Ah, there's what I missed: duration can go above the base.
In essence I think my point stands - when you're below a haste break point, bumping over it increases the window for refreshes significantly. In the case of renew, it looks to be around a 2.5 second difference. It's notable, but I've got nothing invested in making other people think so as well. :P

[Evrx]

Ah, there's what I missed: duration can go above the base.
In essence I think my point stands - when you're below a haste break point, bumping over it increases the window for refreshes significantly. In the case of renew, it looks to be around a 2.5 second difference. It's notable, but I've got nothing invested in making other people think so as well. :P

Yeah, I agree with that. And sorry, I mispoke slightly in my earlier post. What I meant to say was the duration slides from 12 seconds to ~10.5 seconds as haste increases and then goes back up to ABOVE 12 seconds at the haste breakpoints.

IMO, this whole line of debate is kind of irrelevant anyway, because it is a waste to hold raid-buffed haste at the 12.5% breakpoint just for renew, especially as gear increases.

[Worshaka]

Why would anyone use a slow heal when a faster heal has the same efficiency and does the job you know.... faster?

I think renew is a situational spell for disc... I kinda heal based on the remaining time on weakened soul... there are occasions when a target is at near full health with 1 or 2 seconds left on weakened soul, so instead of waiting for that to expire, if I know there is heavy damage comming it can be useful to place a renew on the target during this lull time until I can PW:S > Penance > heal > heal again... or perhaps its PW:S > Penance > Gheal > PW:S another target > GHeal orginal target... whatever it is you're doing.

I can also use it as some form of slow heal on an offtarget where I feel it's dangerous to spend more than 1 GCD on that offtarget. A situation might be that a tank is taking heavy damage and a melee is taking decent damage as well. I have weakened soul on both, PoM is flying about and PoH is wasted coz only 2 targets are taking damage. I want to spend my GCD's on the tank but if I neglect the melee they're going to die... so throw a renew on them and go back to the tank... spending time with Gheal is considered dangerous in this situation.

Now perhaps I can use FHeal, coz it's similar to renew and this is perhaps something I should do from time to time. I would say though that renew to my school of thought is superior throughput. The reason for this is that haste adds ticks and the fact that several ticks can crit. That means on average out of 6 ticks, 1 or 2 are going to crit and apply DA. Opposed to FH which either will crit or will not crit. When it does crit it is superior no doubt, but when it doesnt' crit it's inferior and until you can manage 50% crit its going to provide inferior throughput on the majority of cases.

If you do the math, in 6 experiements of a renew tick at a 30% chance to crit, the chance of at least 1 tick critting is 88.2351%... whereas any given FH will crit only 30% of the time.

[GoldenGunned]

It costs a lot of mana for the healing it does and unless you are refreshing it via chakra: heal then it is not a very good tool for any priest.

[Cerunnir]

It costs a lot of mana for the healing it does and unless you are refreshing it via chakra: heal then it is not a very good tool for any priest.

This is exactly the notion I wish to dispel. It is not expensive, its actually a very good healing per mana spell. Equal to or better than "heal", given you have 12,5% or more haste buffed. If you take into account the fact that it often gets refreshed with a direct heal it become even better. Its not a spell you spam on all group/raid members, but its excellent use of your mana, that can not be denied. (If you dont overuse it)

If a person in my HC party takes 60k damage, but is in no danger of dying. I throw a renew on him then return to focusing on the tank. Perhaps refresh renew on the DPS with a heal to make it even more mana effective.

[Arrelliana]

Renew used responsibly is a great spell for 1 gcd. Tank healing with heal chakra it is a no brainer. Moving out of fire throwing a renew on wounded dps..no brainer. Renew has the same hpm as heal but won't match the hps of heal if you are spamming. Think of it as triage. If I have a player at 1/2 health who can wait 5-10 seconds to be topped off throw a renew while you flash heal that guy standing in fire to 10% health. The renew will tick while you patch up that player..run out of dragon breath and throw your circle/pom. Then you can come back and either renew him again or throw a heal on him.

It is all about smart usage of renew. Renew is not a viable hpm spell if you haven't reached 516 haste.

On chimaeron, I will throw 2 renews out.. 1 on each tank and refresh if I have mana while waiting to flash people who dip below 10k. Otherwise I throw no real renews out I stick to flash/pom/circle/poh. The renew sits on the tank and helps smooth out the damage or top up the off tank before doublestrike.

Renew is a great spell in our arsenal. It is not meant to be spammed as a raid healing tool. Also it shouldn't be removed from your bars. If I am in an extreme mana conservation mode on a slow progressing fight or 5 man, I will go heal chakra and when a dps gets to 50% I throw a renew on them..go back to tank and then drop a heal to refresh the renew right before it expires thus getting a free renew to finish topping them up or keep them above 50% while still being able to focus the tank. It is a great way to really extend mana and overall keeping hps high by having more than one renew rolling and being refreshed.

Like Kelesti said, this isn't wrath..but I do hold renew in high regard.

---------- Post added 2010-12-23 at 04:02 PM ----------

It costs a lot of mana for the healing it does and unless you are refreshing it via chakra: heal then it is not a very good tool for any priest.

I missed this in my other post..this is a completely wrong view of renew for the wrong reasons. This is from ej's:

Spell Healing HPCT HPM
Serenity 13806 10537 11
Renew5 19439 19439 5.99
Heal 10770 4932 5.81
Binding Heal 33499 25567 5.81
Greater Heal 28728 13156 5.17
Flash Heal 21540 16440 3.74
Shield 8685 6629 2.96

Renew is the 2nd highest single target heal per mana and is 2nd highest heal per cast time next to binding heal. It just doesn't match some of the aoe heals as far as efficency such as pom/circle/poh. So please understand the discussion before just posting an arbitrary view.