[TV] Doctor Who

[Kallisto]

I think it's just two parallel timelines coalescing - hence the danger to the universe, "the same person", different Gallifrey - these are really two doctors of the same age (and hence the same sex). Cybermen might be responsible for the divergence because they sent something into the past. Also in new who Cybermen first appeared breaking in from a parallel universe. Too many coincidences.

Would be fine if it was from the same universe Rose is from a small surprise cameo near the end.

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well the leak implies we dont find out this series where ruth actually comes from since it says shes "apparently" a past doctor which is all we really know about her from this episode. I fully believe that whatever ruth is its seperate from the timeless child arc, this whole episode seems to be setting up future hooks for next series, especially since jack isnt returning this series either.

Not even sure where this past Doctor would fit in. We seen every regeneration now from first to present. Including the birth of war doctor and his regen into Ecclestone's.

[Immitis]

Would be fine if it was from the same universe Rose is from a small surprise cameo near the end.

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Not even sure where this past Doctor would fit in. We seen every regeneration now from first to present. Including the birth of war doctor and his regen into Ecclestone's.

i like the theory shes inbetween 2 and 3. its the only onscreen regeneration we dont actually see. (we see him forced to regenerate but we never actually see him shift from 2 to 3) combined with how he was forced to regenerate by the timelords and trialed for crimes by them i think it would fit in the best for continuity.

[Sunseeker]

well the leak implies we dont find out this series where ruth actually comes from since it says shes "apparently" a past doctor which is all we really know about her from this episode.

I mean that's fine, maybe we'll never know, Dr Who is great for dropping interesting stories and just abandoning them (what happened to that clone-daughter of the Doctor!???) Woulda liked to see that story go somewhere.

i also think if ruth were a future doctor they would announce that.

I don't put much stock on "announcements". Honestly I think TV-show producers talk too much to the media these days. Lets leave a little surprise yeah?

its interesting that this is the 3rd time someone in charge of the show has seemingly planned pre hartnell doctors.

morbius being the first
then the cartmell masterplan before who got cancelled during the 7th doctor arc
and now the timeless child/ jo doc
it seems like this time it will actually get canonized though

Ultimately I don't really care what the answer is. I just liked her performance that much so, whatever the excuse is, I'll take it if it means at some point we get her as The Doctor.

[Immitis]

I mean that's fine, maybe we'll never know, Dr Who is great for dropping interesting stories and just abandoning them (what happened to that clone-daughter of the Doctor!???) Woulda liked to see that story go somewhere.


I don't put much stock on "announcements". Honestly I think TV-show producers talk too much to the media these days. Lets leave a little surprise yeah?


Ultimately I don't really care what the answer is. I just liked her performance that much so, whatever the excuse is, I'll take it if it means at some point we get her as The Doctor.

oh I'd love something like the new doctor being a surprise. i just dont think it would happen. every new who departure/doctor has been announced around a year ahead of time.

[Kokolums]

from what ive gathered on the leak the timeless child is doctor #1 but ruth is unrelated, she seems to be a previous doctor incarnation but we dont know where from and it seems to be a plotline for next season not this one

I would fuckin LOVE that. Would also tie in well with the angry sexy bounty hunter later apparently being Gallfreyan, but NOT a Timelord. It could be that her and Ruth were from a SUPER early era of Gallifrey, before they'd totally cracked how to become Timelords.

That's terrible writing. A lot of what makes Doctor Who work as a story is that the Doctor is just some random Time Lord with NO special background at all. The Doctor becomes important because of what s/he believes, desires, and makes happen by pure intelligence and pure force of will to overcome things bigger than s/he is.

If the Doctor's true origin story is that s/he is some powerful person OR had a large hand in the true origin of the Time Lords, that fundamentally ruins the character. From that point forward, it means the Doctor was born with a silver spoon in his/her mouth compared to other Time Lords. The Doctor was playing with a stacked deck, an ace up his/her sleeve vs the universe. All of his/her accomplishments in the past was kinda a setup.

Its the exact same problem WoW has with Azeroth. Originally, the story of WoW was that ordinary people of Azeroth somehow managed to fend off world-ending threats because by pure resolve and determination and fighting to survive, and they won where other worlds fell. They ruined the entire story once they revealed Azeroth had not JUST a magical Titan Soul sleeping inside, but the most powerful Titan Soul in the universe. That took away the accomplishments of the "ordinary" people of Azeroth. They had a special secret advantage other worlds lacked. They were born with a silver spoon. They always win because they can draw on a power source no one else in the universe has.

Once Blizz revealed Azeroth had a secret weapon all this time, its people became much less interesting. What about all those other souls on other planets that fell? Maybe they were more deserving but didn't have the super weapon?

That's the problem Doctor Who lore will face if they reveal the Doctor has a special origin. It will destroy the lore forever.

It would be like revealing the Brigadier was actually a super powerful space alien that hid on Earth and was protecting it from some threat. That ruins the character. What makes the Brigadier so interesting is that he is just some guy and decided to not just believe but to try to do something to help in what way he could. (altho revealing that his ancestor met the Doctor in Capaldi's last episode skirted the boundary of turning the Brigadier into shit.)

The path this sets the Doctor on is eventually going to make him some kind of god. And that will get so ridiculous that they will be forced to reboot the entire mythology and start over from scratch, like a bad comic book.

[MrLachyG]

Can Jenny aka the Doctor's Daughter from season 4 episode 6 (Tennant era) regenerate? because if she can then she could be a prime candidate for Ruth.

[faithbane]

i like the theory shes inbetween 2 and 3. its the only onscreen regeneration we dont actually see. (we see him forced to regenerate but we never actually see him shift from 2 to 3) combined with how he was forced to regenerate by the timelords and trialed for crimes by them i think it would fit in the best for continuity.

The whole point is to claim that "The doctor was originally a girl!" and show a middle finger to the people who protested the first female doctor. The theory that they were going to introduce a new story into the canon to retcon the doctor as originally female was circling online for months. They wouldn't go through the whole mess of introducing an old mysterious female doctor and then just put her in the middle makes. It doesn't check any boxes or accomplishes any goals.

Although, the fact that her tardis is a policebox should be a clue that points to her being a future doctor because canonically the chameleon circuit broke in the first doctor's era and got stuck as a police box. Then he liked it and never bothered to fix it. We see this in the scene with Clara when she helps first doctor steal a tardis and it is not stuck in police box shape yet + it was mentioned a few times in the classic who when a few companions mentioned that it wasn't always a police box.
So a doctor before the 1st having a tardis as a police box makes no sense although at this point, they are saying fuck you to canon if they try to place a new doctor before the first so I guess its ok?

I would very much prefer if we find out at some point that she is the valeyard and she somehow convinces everyone and the doctor that she was an earlier incarnation for some sinister goal.

[Gallahadd]

The path this sets the Doctor on is eventually going to make him some kind of god. And that will get so ridiculous that they will be forced to reboot the entire mythology and start over from scratch, like a bad comic book.

Hasn't that been around for a while, though? I remember a friend talking years back about how there was a theory in classic Who that The Doctor was actually one of the Founding Timelords and was basically the Gallifreyan God. I may have misunderstood, but these seems to just be building on that theory.

Can Jenny aka the Doctor's Daughter from season 4 episode 6 (Tennant era) regenerate? because if she can then she could be a prime candidate for Ruth.

I would be okay with this, as well. As soon as they started going on about "Break the Glass" and we all worked out she was a Timelord, I was considering Jenny for Ruth's origin. And considering she was a clone baby, it's very possible that when she regenerated she "forgot" Jenny, and just thinks she's the Doctor.

[faithbane]

Hasn't that been around for a while, though? I remember a friend talking years back about how there was a theory in classic Who that The Doctor was actually one of the Founding Timelords and was basically the Gallifreyan God. I may have misunderstood, but these seems to just be building on that theory.



I would be okay with this, as well. As soon as they started going on about "Break the Glass" and we all worked out she was a Timelord, I was considering Jenny for Ruth's origin. And considering she was a clone baby, it's very possible that when she regenerated she "forgot" Jenny, and just thinks she's the Doctor.

Yea Doctor's origins have reached "mythical" levels a long time ago but mostly the new who is to blame. It was more obvious in classic who that he wasn't royalty so to speak based on his interactions with the high council and such.

All the theories about "Ruth" being anything other than the actual doctor seems moot to me simply based on how she has the same tardis with the broken chameleon circuit. The fact that they don't remember each other is a bit weird (alternate universe?) but either one could be lying? Doctor lies..

[Traveler Voltin]

wouldnt this also break the regeneration rule?

[Immitis]

The whole point is to claim that "The doctor was originally a girl!" and show a middle finger to the people who protested the first female doctor. The theory that they were going to introduce a new story into the canon to retcon the doctor as originally female was circling online for months. They wouldn't go through the whole mess of introducing an old mysterious female doctor and then just put her in the middle makes. It doesn't check any boxes or accomplishes any goals

If the timeless child is the original doctor and is a girl (which theres little reason to Doubt now that everything else is confirmed) then they would still have the original doctor be female and Ruth would still be able to fit between 2 and 3.

I dont think Ruth is the same incarnation as the timeless child

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wouldnt this also break the regeneration rule?

That's really a moot point. They could solve that easily by either a. The timeless gave him an extra. B the metacrisis didnt actuallu count 11 just didnt remember Ruth and deduced it must have counted.

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Hasn't that been around for a while, though? I remember a friend talking years back about how there was a theory in classic Who that The Doctor was actually one of the Founding Timelords and was basically the Gallifreyan God. I may have misunderstood, but these seems to just be building on that theory.



I would be okay with this, as well. As soon as they started going on about "Break the Glass" and we all worked out she was a Timelord, I was considering Jenny for Ruth's origin. And considering she was a clone baby, it's very possible that when she regenerated she "forgot" Jenny, and just thinks she's the Doctor.

It wasnt a theory, the cartmel masterplan was what the showrunners were planning to do with the 7th doctors arc.

They were going to reveal timelords basically clone/reincarnate via things called looms and that the doctor was "the other" reborn. The third unknown founder of Gallifrey alongside rassilon and omega. They thought the doctor had become less mysterious and too down to earth so it was planned to give him a bigger backstory but doctor who was cancelled before it played out on screen.

A couple comics and things that are non canonical now explored parts of it during the dark years between classic and new who

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartmel_Masterplan

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honestly if you compare what we know about the timeless child from the leak and the cartmell masterplan its very clear chibbs is at the very least inspired by it if not outright retrofitting it to new who. jodie said the storyline of the timeless child is something hes wanted to add to who since he started writing for the show so id assume he was a fan of the idea back during classic who.

[Gallahadd]

honestly if you compare what we know about the timeless child from the leak and the cartmell masterplan its very clear chibbs is at the very least inspired by it if not outright retrofitting it to new who.

Aaaaah yeah, that's what he was telling me about, the Masterplan. Didn't realise it was canon, though. Does very much seem like what Chibnall is doing is his nod to that old arc. Which makes a lot of the complaints a little moot, if you ask me...

[Immitis]

Aaaaah yeah, that's what he was telling me about, the Masterplan. Didn't realise it was canon, though. Does very much seem like what Chibnall is doing is his nod to that old arc. Which makes a lot of the complaints a little moot, if you ask me...

well, it WOULD'VE been canon, had doctor who not been cancelled before they got the chance to do so.

some non canonical novels adapted most of their ideas but the storyline never got to be told in the show

[Polyxo]

Am I the only one that doesn't know about and doesn't care at all about plot continuity in Dr. Who? For me this is basically just Saturday morning cartoons.

[Kokolums]

Hasn't that been around for a while, though? I remember a friend talking years back about how there was a theory in classic Who that The Doctor was actually one of the Founding Timelords and was basically the Gallifreyan God. I may have misunderstood, but these seems to just be building on that theory.

That was the "Cartmel Masterplan" that MAY have been implemented for the 7th Doctor had the series not been cancelled in 1989. I absolutely hated the idea back then. It was rubbish then and its rubbish now. It was the best thing for the show to have never happened, unfortunately it may be coming back around again.

I would talk with the book writers on the old doctor who forums and tell them the best idea is to go the other way, get rid of the Cartmel Masterplan, power down the Doctor, make him more vulnerable to threats, as it makes for more interesting stories. Its interesting to see Paul Cornell actually write a book based on that idea with Human Nature, which later actually got adapted for Tennant and won Tennant an award. Which it should because he actually gets to play a human being with human emotions and failings.

[Gallahadd]

Its interesting to see Paul Cornell actually write a book based on that idea with Human Nature, which later actually got adapted for Tennant and won Tennant an award. Which it should because he actually gets to play a human being with human emotions and failings.

That was a fantastic episode to be fair. And in general, I DO agree that a powered down story makes the hero more relatable (just look at Pre Original Sin Thor, compared to Unworthy Thor). However, even at his peak, the Doctor isn't exactly a superhero. He's always solved problem with a mixture of knowledge, luck and Companion Assistance. Having a Cartmel Lite type plot arc isn't going to change that.

Especially as the big benefit to The Doctor being "The Timeless Child" seems to be infinite regenerations... Which she basically has now, anyway. Since the 13 regen limit was passed with Capaldi, and they took great pains to avoid stating just how many regens were added.

All making the Doctor the Timeless Child REALLY does, is let them keep making the show, until they decide to stop.

[Immitis]

Also when it comes to the idea of the doctor being a "superhero" lets not forget the rtd era where timelords were able to float around and shoot lazer beams from their hands.

I'm not sure I like the idea of pre Hartnell incarnations but I do like the idea of who the doctor is being a mystery. It opens up a whole host of storylines involving whatever actual species they are, it allows them to bring in perhaps more ancient and unknown beings from the pre Gallifreyan universe.

A few pages back someone mentioned the creatures the timelords defeated when they brought order to the universe. Seeing more of that type of stuff might be cool and different.

[mvaliz]

A few pages back someone mentioned the creatures the timelords defeated when they brought order to the universe. Seeing more of that type of stuff might be cool and different.

Those were the Great Vampires. Think Kaiju-Sized monstrosities that drained whole planets of blood. The ones you'd think of as "Dracula" style would be the minions of them.

I thought that would be great as well if they focused on that aspect as well... unfortunately I fear they're going to make the Doctor the "Center" of the story again. >_<

Seriously, stop adding to the Doctor! I've been so sick of the "Lonely God" crap since the wilderness Virgin Novel years, and they need to stop focusing on him and just explore/expand the rest of the universe instead. It's a dead-end if you keep adding to the Doctor's history, whereas the whole universe can be opened up to create anything - which was the whole POINT of the Doctor going on adventures in the first place! >_<

[Sunseeker]

Am I the only one that doesn't know about and doesn't care at all about plot continuity in Dr. Who? For me this is basically just Saturday morning cartoons.

To be fair, a lot of Saturday morning cartoons have better continuity than Dr Who.

[Corvus]

I haven't watched since early Capaldi - I liked him as the Doctor but felt he had been saddled with bad stories.

If these rumours/leaks are true they are troubling and they just don't mesh with what has been shown before. The Tenth Doctor (Tennant) spoke of being growing up as a young boy on Gallifrey and being made to look into the Untempered Schism (and that as a result he ran and never stopped running.)