Spirit as Elemental

[Pascal]

There was a post similar to this in the druid forum too. I'll sum up what I said there:

It's ridiculous to ever try and say that a dps doesn't need hit. Who cares if it comes from spirit, you need to be hit capped. They made balance druids and elemental shaman get hit from spirit so that they could drastically reduce the amount of actual pieces of gear on any given loot table, making it easier for everyone to get gear that they actually want. If mail and leather spell casting gear still had hit, healers would be seeing crappy gear with hit that they couldn't use drop and get sharded all the time.

Don't ever feel bad about rolling on what you need for your class. If we opted to pass all upgrades to healers (and tanks) because they're healers (and tanks), you'd hit enrage timers, miss interrupts, and have generally pathetic, long, terrible raids, where the healers were going oom because the boss was alive for too long.

[Synaxis]

Don't feel bad. Spirit = hit, and hit = our #1 stat until we're capped.

The resto shamans are going to be pissed for a while, but they'll get over it eventually. Resto and Elemental now share gear. That's the way it is. Spellpower mail does not appear to have any actual hit on it anymore, so we have got to get it from spirit.

You won the item. If the resto shaman wanted it that bad, they could've easily won it over you, they had the DKP to be able to do so. They did not. Clearly, as you said, they didn't want the item that badly.

I roll on spirit gear if it drops, be it mail or rings/necks/backs. If there's a resto shaman in the group, tough. If the healer (regardless of class) wanted that ring/neck/back, tough. I am not hit capped. I have every right to roll on that item, and so do you, and so do boomkins, and so do shadow priests. Don't let any healer bully you into giving up a piece of loot that is an upgrade, especially if it has spirit and you aren't hit capped without the item.

If it becomes a problem in your guild, give them a good, long talk. If they continue to act pigheaded and insist that you are not allowed to have spirit because you're not a healer, find a new guild. There is no hit rating on caster mail. You'd have to gem and enchant hit, have hit trinkets, and hope you can get backs, necks, and rings with hit on 'em if you wanted to reach the hit cap without the spirit on mail.

We have one number we must reach: 17% spell hit.

You ain't gettin' there without spirit.

[Hypernetic]

Don't feel bad. Spirit = hit, and hit = our #1 stat until we're capped.

The resto shamans are going to be pissed for a while, but they'll get over it eventually. Resto and Elemental now share gear. That's the way it is. Spellpower mail does not appear to have any actual hit on it anymore, so we have got to get it from spirit.

You won the item. If the resto shaman wanted it that bad, they could've easily won it over you, they had the DKP to be able to do so. They did not. Clearly, as you said, they didn't want the item that badly.

I roll on spirit gear if it drops, be it mail or rings/necks/backs. If there's a resto shaman in the group, tough. If the healer (regardless of class) wanted that ring/neck/back, tough. I am not hit capped. I have every right to roll on that item, and so do you, and so do boomkins, and so do shadow priests. Don't let any healer bully you into giving up a piece of loot that is an upgrade, especially if it has spirit and you aren't hit capped without the item.

If it becomes a problem in your guild, give them a good, long talk. If they continue to act pigheaded and insist that you are not allowed to have spirit because you're not a healer, find a new guild. There is no hit rating on caster mail. You'd have to gem and enchant hit, have hit trinkets, and hope you can get backs, necks, and rings with hit on 'em if you wanted to reach the hit cap without the spirit on mail.

We have one number we must reach: 17% spell hit.

You ain't gettin' there without spirit.

I'm pissed because wearing spirit gear in any shaman spec makes me feel dirty.

[Synaxis]

I'm pissed because wearing spirit gear in any shaman spec makes me feel dirty.

I had to force myself not to puke the first time I donned a spirit piece. After, I forcefully made myself regard spirit as a stat that is not completely disgusting. Today, I cheer whenever a piece of spirit mail drops!

Crit is the 'omg ew get it away omg omg get it away ewwww' stat now, for me.

[DomBomb1]

The spirit to hit talents are designed for the sole purpose of Elemental and Restoration (and similar classes) being able to share gear. While I don't know for sure as I've yet to start raiding, I'm pretty sure all Caster Mail is going to have Spirit instead of Hit, and since Hit is the biggest DPS increase until capped, I'm gonna say you were in the right.

False. The other reason for said talents is so that blizzard doesn't have to itemize any int+hit gear. I have yet to see ANY leather or mail intellect gear that has hit on it. Therefore, in order to get hit capped, boomkins and ele shamans MUST get some spirit mail pieces.

[Bullettime]

I look at gear for hybrid casters (being a shadow priest) in this way....

Armor
Spirit + Substat = Hybrid DPS or Healer
2 Substats (no Spirit or Hit) = Neutral
Hit + Substat = Mage/Warlock then Spriest

Accessories
Spirit + Substat = Healer
2 Substats = Neutral
Hit + Substat = DPS

Trinkets
Hit and/or Spell Damage Proc = DPS
Spirit + Generic Spell or Heal Proc = Healer
Int/Substat + Generic Spell Proc = Neutral

Weapons
Spirit + Substat = Healer priority then Hybrid DPS
2 Substats = Neutral
Hit + Substat = DPS
Staves of any kind = Druids and Priests (excluding potential legendary) then Shaman.

More people need to look at that list and kinda let it sink in as that is pretty much what Blizzard is intending. The argument of OMGSPIRIT GIEF (healer) no longer works on armor pieces provided your group has common sense.

[DomBomb1]

I look at gear for hybrid casters (being a shadow priest) in this way....

Armor
Spirit + Substat = Hybrid DPS or Healer
2 Substats (no Spirit or Hit) = Neutral
Hit + Substat = Mage/Warlock then Spriest

Accessories
Spirit + Substat = Healer
2 Substats = Neutral
Hit + Substat = DPS

Trinkets
Hit and/or Spell Damage Proc = DPS
Spirit + Generic Spell or Heal Proc = Healer
Int/Substat + Generic Spell Proc = Neutral

Weapons
Spirit + Substat = Healer priority then Hybrid DPS
2 Substats = Neutral
Hit + Substat = DPS
Staves of any kind = Druids and Priests (excluding potential legendary) then Shaman.

More people need to look at that list and kinda let it sink in as that is pretty much what Blizzard is intending. The argument of OMGSPIRIT GIEF (healer) no longer works on armor pieces provided your group has common sense.

So hybrid DPS (as you call them) have lower priority for weapons and accessories? Sorry, that just doesn't fly. You gotta chose: let them have priority on hit weps/rings/necks along with mages/locks, or let them have priority on spirit weps/rings/necks along with healers. Or alternatively, they get highest priority over EVERYONE on any weps/rings/necks that have "2 Substats" as you called it. Otherwise, the hybrid DPS will always be the last to fill their rings/neck slots (minor problem) and last to get a weapon (HUGE problem).

This really isn't much of a problem with trinkets, are there aren't many passive spirit trinkets that would be attractive to DPS, so hybrid DPS should clearly be on the same priority as mages/locks on hit trinkets.

[Endus]

False. The other reason for said talents is so that blizzard doesn't have to itemize any int+hit gear. I have yet to see ANY leather or mail intellect gear that has hit on it. Therefore, in order to get hit capped, boomkins and ele shamans MUST get some spirit mail pieces.

You said "false" and then continued to agree entirely with the guy you quoted. Not wanting to itemize Int+Hit gear (your point) is the same point as wanting to make healer and DPS specs share gear (Brodi's point). They don't want to itemize int+hit because then they're having to make two full gear sets for single class/spec combos, which inflates the gear drops unnecessarily, and turning more of them into shard fodder rather than useful upgrades for someone.

More people need to look at that list and kinda let it sink in as that is pretty much what Blizzard is intending. The argument of OMGSPIRIT GIEF (healer) no longer works on armor pieces provided your group has common sense.

I wouldn't say the gear is that easily categorized, really. Hit = DPS, of course, and trinket procs are often self-explanatory, but beyond that, it gets much more flexible, which is great.

The "shaman don't get staves" thing particularly bugs me. With the current enchant profile, staves aren't optimal for anyone. Shaman can use shields, but anyone can get a 1-hander and an off-hand, and the +100 intellect to off-hand is a gear-changer.

Looking at heroic drops, the staff has +385 Intellect and +2208 Spellpower.
A dagger/offhand combo has (165+215+100) +480 Intellect and +2207 Spellpower.

The itemization points of 1H/OH are SLIGHTLY behind that of a staff, on their own, but there are no staff-specific enchants (beyond the old WotLK one) and the new offhand enchant far more than makes up the difference between the two.

Nobody wants staves any more. I'm actually hoping they add a new staff enchant that will make up this difference, because staves SHOULD be a competitive option, at least for some classes.

[Bigslick]

Hybrid caster dps are put in a rather difficult position this expansion. They are granted the benefit of being able to pursue hit cap by using gear with either hit rating or spirit rating to equal effect so have a larger loot table from which to draw. Hit cap is not easily achieved, so a good deal of your gear (in particular mail, since there is no hit alternative, at least non-tier) will require it. There is a hard cap beyond which hybrid dps will not benefit from further spirit/hit, but up until that point they are generally going to be their best stats. Simiilarly, while there isn't a hard cap to regen, there is a soft cap of sorts of spirit for healers, a point of effective regen beyond which they would benefit more by seeking direct throughput.

Heeding the request by your guildies to pass on a piece of mail spirit gear because 'it's more of a healer piece' would be no more advisable than heeding a request the next time to pass on a hit neck because 'it's more of a pure caster dps piece.' You can't allow afford to allow just one of these 'purist' groups to be allowed automatic priority on items with their preferred stat without setting precedent to do so for the other, which would put you in the terrible position of having view of the largest loot table but being denied access to it. Oh, and just to chime this in on behalf of healers: items with pure throughput stats (haste/mastery/crit, with no spirit or hit) can be just as valuable to healers as to dps. Once you have enough regen, much like once you have enough hit, maximizing throughput is the number one priority.

@ the OP: You were right to withstand the pressure applied by the resto shaman and his healing cadre. Spirit in this case and at this point is likely to be equally valuable to both you and the healer in question in achieving your respective hit and regen goals. From what I've read in this thread, the other stat on the item, mastery, is best or second best to ele shaman, but least or second least valuable to a resto shaman. All other things being equal, in a knowledgeable loot council this item would likely have been awarded to you, though it might be a closer vote or revert to the resto shaman if the item represented a much larger overall stat upgrade for them (i.e., still using a 333 item of similarly non-optimal stats where you had a 346 item with optimal stats).

If your guild leadership places greater value on ensuring healers are well geared faster than dps, they are teetering on the edge between a true DKP system and a form of loot council. If that's the case, get them to be very, very clear on exactly how those things will be managed so there are no 'surprises' down the road and so everyone has the same expectations, whether or not they agree with the system being irrelevant once they choose to continue playing under it. Better to have that conversation before loot drops than after for lesser drama.

[Deleted]

Hybrid caster dps are put in a rather difficult position this expansion. They are granted the benefit of being able to pursue hit cap by using gear with either hit rating or spirit rating to equal effect so have a larger loot table from which to draw.

However this is JUST NOT TRUE. People are assuming there is hit gear out there it simply isn't there is NO hit gear to speak of. So Elemental Shamans and Moonkin Druids CANNOT double dip and have "a larger loot table from which to draw." It doesn't exist.

You mention "a hit neck" are you aware there are NO hit piece necks? There is a single item on wowhead which is actually logged as no longer on live and was only on beta. ie: Blizzard are removing int/hit items from the game barring those for mages/warlocks.

---------- Post added 2011-01-01 at 06:15 PM ----------

The list of available gear and those that can use them is

Type    Major   Minor Stats                           Users
Cloth    Int   Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery           Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest
Cloth    Int   Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery              Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock
Leather  Agi   Hit, Expertise, Haste, Crit, Mastery   Feral Druid, Rogue
Leather  Int   Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery           Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid
Mail     Agi   Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery              Hunter, Enhancement Shaman
Mail     Int   Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery           Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman
Plate    Str   Hit, Haste, Expertise, Crit, Mastery   DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Ret Paladin
Plate    Str   Parry, Dodge, Hit, Expertise, Mastery  Tank Warrior, Tank DK, Tank Paladin
Plate    Int   Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery           Holy Paladin

MainHand Int   SP, Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery          Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin
MainHand Agi   AP, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery, Expertise  Feral Druid, Rogue, Hunter, Enhancement Shaman
MainHand Str   AP, Hit, Haste, Expertise, Crit, Mastery  DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Ret Paladin
MainHand Str   AP, Parry, Mastery                        Tank Warrior, Tank DK, Tank Paladin

OffHand    Int   Hit, Haste                    Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Moonkin Druid, Elemental Shaman
OffHand    Int   Spirit, Haste, Mastery, Crit  Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest, Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin
OffHand    Agi   Hit, Mastery                  Rogue, Hunter, Enhancement Shaman
OffHand    Str   Haste, Mastery, Hit           DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Ret Paladin, Tank DK
OffHand    Str   Parry, Mastery                Tank Warrior, Tank Paladin

Ranged    Int   Spirit, Mastery                Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest
Ranged    Int   Hit, Mastery                   Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock
Ranged    Agi   Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery      Rogue, Hunter
Ranged    Str   Expertise, Mastery             DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Tank Warrior, Tank DK

NB. All relics are purchased from vendors not drops
Relic    Int   Spirit, Crit            Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin
Relic    Int   Crit, Haste             Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin
Relic    Agi   Crit, Haste             Feral Druid, Enhancement Shaman
Relic    Str   Crit, Expertise         DPS DK, Ret Paladin
Relic    Str   Dodge, Mastery          Tank DK, Tank Paladin

Cloak    Int   Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery      Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin   
Cloak    Agi   Crit, Mastery, Hit                Feral Druid, Rogue, Hunter, Enhancement Shaman
Cloak    Str   Crit, Haste                       DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Ret Paladin
Cloak    Str   Dodge, Parry, Expertise           Tank Warrior, Tank DK, Tank Paladin
   
Neck    Int   Haste, Mastery, Spirit, Crit      Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin   
Neck    Agi   Haste, Mastery                    Feral Druid, Rogue, Hunter, Enhancement Shaman
Neck    Str   Hit, Haste, Mastery               DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Ret Paladin
Neck    Str   Dodge, Hit                        Tank Warrior, Tank DK, Tank Paladin

Rings    Int   Haste, Crit, Mastery, Spirit   Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Moonkin Druid, Resto Druid, Elemental Shaman, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin   
Rings    Int   Hit, Crit                      Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Moonkin Druid, Elemental Shaman   
Rings    Agi   Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery      Feral Druid, Rogue, Hunter, Enhancement Shaman
Rings    Str   Haste, Mastery, Expertise      DPS Warrior, DPS DK, Ret Paladin
Rings    Str   Dodge, Expertise, Mastery      Tank Warrior, Tank DK, Tank Paladin

Trinkets have odd procs and are usually fairly obviously healing spells/damage spells/melee & ranged attacks/defensive.
Agi trinkets obviously for Leather & Mail wearers, Str trinkets for Plate
Hit rating trinkets for dps, Spirit trinkets initially for healers

[Bigslick]

However this is JUST NOT TRUE. People are assuming there is hit gear out there it simply isn't there is NO hit gear to speak of. So Elemental Shamans and Moonkin Druids CANNOT double dip and have "a larger loot table from which to draw." It doesn't exist.

You mention "a hit neck" are you aware there are NO hit piece necks? There is a single item on wowhead which is actually logged as no longer on live and was only on beta. ie: Blizzard are removing int/hit items from the game barring those for mages/warlocks.

No, it is true. You are narrowing the scope of gear I was referring to to only leather pieces, excluding MH/OH/staves as well as accessories such as neck/cloak/ring/trinket options. So elemental shamans and moonkin druids can in fact double dip and have a larger loot table from which to draw, albeit not to the same extent as shadow priests. It does exist, just not with every single slot.

As to hit neck, that was a bad example if there are none (it was an off the cuff example, I didn't research), but the fact remains that there are items for slots that are not specific to armor type. Blizzard is not removing int/hit items from the game barring those for mages/warlocks, but rather only those specific to leather and mail.

[Endus]

No, it is true. You are narrowing the scope of gear I was referring to to only leather pieces, excluding MH/OH/staves as well as accessories such as neck/cloak/ring/trinket options. So elemental shamans and moonkin druids can in fact double dip and have a larger loot table from which to draw, albeit not to the same extent as shadow priests. It does exist, just not with every single slot.

This is disingenuous to a huge degree. The fact is, even if Elemental Shaman have a piece of gear with Hit Rating in every non-Mail slot, they will be short of the 17% hit rating required. Elemental Shaman will need mail gear with spirit on it. In many cases, our best-in-slot trinkets will not be hit trinkets, since trinket value is typically at least as much based on the proc as the static stat, if not more so.

Plus, those "extra" items with hit rating are shared with every other ranged DPS class. This means we share them with three specs of mages, three specs of warlocks, boomkin, and shadow priests. 9 total caster DPS specs. Healers are only competing with 4 healing specs. Plus, there's three times as many DPS, roughly, as healers, which ensures that this competition will be a constant factor.

And, of course, this comes right back around to the basic foundation of loot distribution. Every major loot system is based on a basic concept; fairness. Giving healers loot priority on gear that's an equal upgrade for them and DPS is inherently unfair.

Plus, we're hybrids. As such, we may be called on to swap to a healing spec, and any Shaman player should be able to do so when needed. Thus, we should be prioritizing Spirit gear, if for no other reason than we can use the same gear in our Resto set. It will likely need different reforging and enchants and gems, but worst case, you can be "handing down" the pieces you upgrade from, in many cases.

Long story short, there are many reasons for Elemental Shaman to want Spirit gear, even beyond the fact that we're required to pick it up to meet the hit cap, anyway. There's no reason to give healers addtional loot priority, when they already have enough of a boost by sharing things like healing trinkets with a much smaller pool of competitors.

[Deleted]

No, it is true. You are narrowing the scope of gear I was referring to to only leather pieces, excluding MH/OH/staves as well as accessories such as neck/cloak/ring/trinket options. So elemental shamans and moonkin druids can in fact double dip and have a larger loot table from which to draw, albeit not to the same extent as shadow priests. It does exist, just not with every single slot.

As to hit neck, that was a bad example if there are none (it was an off the cuff example, I didn't research), but the fact remains that there are items for slots that are not specific to armor type. Blizzard is not removing int/hit items from the game barring those for mages/warlocks, but rather only those specific to leather and mail.

Yup "I didn't research" there is your problem right there you are ASSUMING what Blizzard have provided and ASSUMING there is hit gear out their for Elementals and Moonkins.

There are 469 items of heroic gear or better ie: item level 346+ that have intellect on them ie: caster/healer gear. http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=...:1:3;crv=0:0:0

Only 48 of those items have hit on them http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=...:1:3;crv=0:0:0

Of those 48 items 30 of them are cloth or wands. That's 18 items that have hit of which five of them are vendor/crafted items not drops. Leaving just 13 items that have hit on them of item level 346 or above that can be used by Elementals & Moonkin.

13 items out of 469 CANNOT be described by any sane person as double dipping. Please bother to check the actual loot tables rather than guessing and assuming.

[Bigslick]

@ Endus:

No disrespect intended, but I almost get the impression you didn't read my entire post. I fully support equal loot priority between hybrid casters and healers, and feel I made that quite clear. I stated the high demand of hit rating and the need for caster dps to attain it, and therefore to roll on spirit gear. I specifically said that healers should not have an inherent priority on spirit gear. At no point did I speak specifically to only one armor type, but encompassed the full range of the three hybrids.

You say that hybrid casters compete with among 9 caster dps specs versus 4 healing specs, but in reality in a raid environment you generally have no more than three dps for every one healer, and generally at least one of those dps will be physical dps, meaning if one of the caster dps is hybrid then the distribution works out to 1 seeking spirit, 1 seeking hit, 1 seeking either. This doesn't really bear on the argument I was making, but since you've put it out there let's keep it clear.

As I said in my original post, once again, hybrids should not in any way feel obliged to give up a legitimate upgrade opportunity to either a pure caster dps or healer, though consideration of the level of upgrade in a friendly group may come into play.

@ Levva:

Your research shows 13 items that fit the condition, which is very small number indeed against a pool of 469. But in a raid situation, the 'drama opportunity' is highest on items that can be used by the largest number of people, so let's exclude those specifically cloth/leather/mail/plate. If we leave out trinkets as well (for simplicity's sake, since so many of them that would populate the list are role specific by proc or on-use), we are left with only 57 items. Of those, 15 items have hit and 25 items have spirit. Now we're dealing with 15 hit items out of 57, or 26%, and 25 spirit items out of 57, or 44%. So unless I'm mistaken the pool is not nearly as small as suggested (pretty sure I got the filters right, but feel free to doublecheck me).

Regardless, existence of double dipping is not the same as prevalence of double dipping. But are you saying that due to the scarcity of them that should one drop all hybrid dps should pass on it even if it's a legitimate upgrade to them if there's a pure dps that needs it as well?

[Gistwiki]

If you change that from ilvl 346 and up to ilvl 359 and up you'll find that there are exactly 3 non-cloth pieces that have both intellect and hit on them. One is a BoE ring (http://www.wowhead.com/item=67129) and the other two are an off-hand frill (http://www.wowhead.com/item=59484) and the heroic version (http://www.wowhead.com/item=65133) of said frill.

Certainly there are options with hit rating before raiding, but once you begin raiding, there's nearly nothing.

[Deleted]

Of those, 15 items have hit and 25 items have spirit. Now we're dealing with 15 hit items out of 57, or 26%, and 25 spirit items out of 57, or 44%. So unless I'm mistaken the pool is not nearly as small as suggested (pretty sure I got the filters right, but feel free to doublecheck me).

Regardless, existence of double dipping is not the same as prevalence of double dipping. But are you saying that due to the scarcity of them that should one drop all hybrid dps should pass on it even if it's a legitimate upgrade to them if there's a pure dps that needs it as well?

Of your 15 items 2 are crafted, 2 are vendor items and 1 no longer exists in game plus 1 is a wand. Leaving just 9 items. Of those 9 items ALL of them are from heroics so don't really count when talking about raiding situation you mention.

The actual list you should be looking at is http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=...:1;crv=0:0:0:0 of which 2 are wands and one is a BoE rare epic drop from heroic instances not raids ie: there are just 2 items that have hit and intellect on them that are usable by Moonkins/Elementals that would ever cause the looting drama you mention.

Personally I'd far rather ram home to my guild that for fairness sake people need to understand there are only these 2 items and so by no stretch of the imagination can Moonkins or Elementals be said to be double-dipping or unfairly getting loot which they can have and their resto guildmates cannot get. Do you REALLY argue that for the sake of TWO items which are looted by mages/warlocks/shadow priests/moonkins & elementals that moonkins and elementals have an unfair advantage over resto?

Oh and to be completely clear its really ONE item as it just the normal raid and heroic raid version of the same thing. So really a SINGLE item is available to Moonkins and Resto in raiding and you suggest they should pass on spirit in favour of Resto???

People need to wake up and realise that Spirit is a SECONDARY STAT. It is of EQUAL value to resto and caster dps. Cata changed gearing get over it.

[Endus]

@ Endus:

No disrespect intended, but I almost get the impression you didn't read my entire post. I fully support equal loot priority between hybrid casters and healers, and feel I made that quite clear. I stated the high demand of hit rating and the need for caster dps to attain it, and therefore to roll on spirit gear. I specifically said that healers should not have an inherent priority on spirit gear. At no point did I speak specifically to only one armor type, but encompassed the full range of the three hybrids.

I was speaking more about the general theory that gear should go to healers if they have fewer loot options, there, rather than trying to say that you yourself had professed it.

You say that hybrid casters compete with among 9 caster dps specs versus 4 healing specs, but in reality in a raid environment you generally have no more than three dps for every one healer, and generally at least one of those dps will be physical dps, meaning if one of the caster dps is hybrid then the distribution works out to 1 seeking spirit, 1 seeking hit, 1 seeking either. This doesn't really bear on the argument I was making, but since you've put it out there let's keep it clear.

Again, I was just trying to point out that whether you look at it on a by-spec basis or a per-raid-member basis, there are more casters than healers, not trying to suggest the two factors combine in any way, though I probably didn't make that clear enough.

Regardless, existence of double dipping is not the same as prevalence of double dipping. But are you saying that due to the scarcity of them that should one drop all hybrid dps should pass on it even if it's a legitimate upgrade to them if there's a pure dps that needs it as well?

That was directed at Levva, but I want to take a crack at it myself.

If you're running a Loot Council (my guild does) where the item's utility is a factor, as opposed to DKP or other point systems where the only relevant factor is the amount bid, then you should be considering how much of an upgrade the item might be to a certain class, and whether or not it's a best-in-slot piece. Not making fallacious "that's healer gear because it has Spirit" kind of decisions.

Nobody should ever be expected to pass on gear they have a legitimate claim to. I mean, they can, and it's generous if they do, but complaining that they didn't is like getting angry with someone for not buying you a beer when you say you're thirsty. That's a factor that has more to do with whether you're friends, not how much you want a beer.

[Bigslick]

So really a SINGLE item is available to Moonkins and Resto in raiding and you suggest they should pass on spirit in favour of Resto???

People need to wake up and realise that Spirit is a SECONDARY STAT. It is of EQUAL value to resto and caster dps. Cata changed gearing get over it.

Levva, it seems that you are again misrepresenting what I had said and then passing judgement on my comments based on your representation of them. Please go and reread my first post and every subsequent post and tell me one place where I suggested that hybrid dps should as a rule pass on spirit items in favor of healers (regardless of whether it's a specific armor type or an accessory) or on hit items in favor of 'pure' caster dps. You've suggested that I've made that claim both directly and indirectly now, and I don't know what to do but say once again that which I have repeatedly restated, that neither has higher rights to it than the other. The closest relevant statement was regarding a potential disadvantage suffered by hybrids due to legacy perception of spirit as mostly being a healer stat. Items on which hybrids have option (multiple for cloth, few for non-armor-specific) provide a small degree of greater flexibility for hybrids. That is neither here nor there in terms of how looting decisions should be handled, it's just something that is. I'm sure it's not your intention to paraphrase what I have said in misrepresentation, but I do feel that that is the case here.

This is going to be repetitive, but despite having been the core point of my original post and reiterated in my responses it seems to have been missed, so here goes once again... I do not suggest hybrids pass spirit gear as a rule to healers, I do not suggest hybrids pass hit gear to pure dps, and I have not once in the course of this discussion suggested either of those things. If you take the time to review what I have written, you should find that we are essentially in agreement regarding the matter, and the only valid area of contrary discussion was regarding the number of non-armor-specific items that offered a specific stat.

If you're running a Loot Council (my guild does) where the item's utility is a factor, as opposed to DKP or other point systems where the only relevant factor is the amount bid, then you should be considering how much of an upgrade the item might be to a certain class, and whether or not it's a best-in-slot piece. Not making fallacious "that's healer gear because it has Spirit" kind of decisions.

Nobody should ever be expected to pass on gear they have a legitimate claim to. I mean, they can, and it's generous if they do, but complaining that they didn't is like getting angry with someone for not buying you a beer when you say you're thirsty. That's a factor that has more to do with whether you're friends, not how much you want a beer.

I'm 100% in agreement here. I've been in guilds operating on DKP in the past, and am not a fan. Such a system doesn't have failsafes to prevent loot going to relatively small upgrades (DKP hoarder winning H DFO when they had DFO and others didn't? problem) and doesn't promote group advancement. But if you are in a DKP guild, make sure you know any exceptions that may apply. If you're in a guild where your goal is long term and you trust the people you raid with, a loot council is imo far superior in terms of shoring up the communal weakest links in gear and strengthening the team as a whole. Individuals may go a length of time with no upgrades while others gain 2-3 pieces, but if it helps you defeat bosses, it's the better route than pushing a personal gear agenda at the expense of the group effort.

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If you're running a Loot Council (my guild does) where the item's utility is a factor, as opposed to DKP or other point systems where the only relevant factor is the amount bid, then you should be considering how much of an upgrade the item might be to a certain class, and whether or not it's a best-in-slot piece. Not making fallacious "that's healer gear because it has Spirit" kind of decisions.

Nobody should ever be expected to pass on gear they have a legitimate claim to. I mean, they can, and it's generous if they do, but complaining that they didn't is like getting angry with someone for not buying you a beer when you say you're thirsty. That's a factor that has more to do with whether you're friends, not how much you want a beer.

My guild runs DKP (EPGP) with fixed item costs I would never ever join a guild that ran a bidding system DKP as the opportunities for /w conspiring and intimidation are just something that I intensely dislike. To me paying the exact same price for an item is the only fair way to do things. I can understand loot councils but could never be bothered with the inherent suspicions placed at the door of the officers by members of bias. Although all things being equal and in an environment of trust loot council is almost certainly the best system.

My guild is 5 years old on the 9th January. It has gone through various incarnations but the core team is still intact after all this time. We have always found that a fixed price DKP system is the fairest but different people value different things.

The key point we are in agreement though is that the "that's healer gear because it has Spirit" is a DEAD argument it has no place in looting discussions in Cataclysm (unless you are talking about priests where yes there is an issue of Shadow priest double dipping).

Edit: BigSlick I may have quoted your text but my point was generic rather than directed at you and crosses over what I've said in an identical Moonkin thread on the druid forum so apologies if I lumped you in the with clueless "waah waah that's a spirit item that's for healers" crowd, I can see that wasn't your intention.