The Auction House

[Narsh]

Undercutting by alot is a decent way to lower the prices. People in general are impatient and therefore wish to sell their wares as fast as possible, so by undercutting by a lot usually makes them undercut you again and your price will become the price level for that particular ware. To give a theoretical example: Leatherworking leg enchants currently cost approximately 1000g each. If I post several for 500 someone will most likely try to undercut myself with the new price of 499g. Another would end up undercutting him again and the marked would stabilize on that price range. Now before anyone comes with the claim that people would just buy the undercutting wares and repost them, I would like to say that from my experience happens rarely due to the fact that most people is unwilling to spend a larger ammount of money on wares they can craft themself or they simply lacks the funds to do so.

[Belloc]

That's great when mat costs are 14k. You can have your 1k profit. I can wait an extra hour or two for 5x the profit. I'm not so short-sighted as to short-change myself that much profit.

Besides, what are you doing that requires you to NEED that money ASAP? Are you completely broke and that money is your entire livelihood and you are raiding in 2 hours? What kind of activity requires you to sell something within minutes of you listing it?

My auctions last 24/48/72 hours. Listing them for 3 minutes is a waste of time and money when they'll sell within the time frame for significantly more.

Ah, but there's a flaw in your argument. Mats don't cost 14k unless you're buying them on the auction house. Instead, mats cost time. By farming the mats and undercutting, a player is showing that your time is not worth as much as you think it is.

Personally, I think that the vast majority of items on the AH are overpriced and if undercutting a bit with my own mats can help lower the overall price, I'm fine with that. I still make plenty of profit as, once again, all I have invested is time. Yes, time = money, but there's a point where you're being a good businessman and a point where you're being exceptionally greedy.

[Kpoof]

Well, person C can do whatever the hell he wants. I will still get my item that I bought off of person C sold, even if it takes 5 minutes longer. C's loss, I win. And I get more gold. This is why there are whiners about gold and people who have gold. Common sense wouldn't hurt..

[procne]

Well, person C can do whatever the hell he wants. I will still get my item that I bought off of person C sold, even if it takes 5 minutes longer. C's loss, I win. And I get more gold. This is why there are whiners about gold and people who have gold. Common sense wouldn't hurt..

It gets funnier when after you buy the item from him, he will repost another one. And again, and again...
In the end you find yourself with 10 of those items and C keeps reposting AND D with E start undercutting him

[Cybbelajlaj]

Just because some retards puts something up for 30k doesnt mean anyone's going to pay it.

[procne]

Just because some retards puts something up for 30k doesnt mean anyone's going to pay it.

Just because you dont like what someone is doing doesnt mean you have to call them retards.
Calm down please

[Ymiron]

1. P.c knows the demand of the item better then the rest.
2. P.c has just moved from another server were he bought it for around 15k and just wants his money back.
3. P.c tries to make you guys undercut him so he can buy it out and resell.
4.P.c is a boter and dont care about making maximum profit as he wont put out the same time getting the mats/item.
5.P.c just wants to get it sold so he can buy something(like a darkmoon trinket)
6. P.c is not gready
7.P.c has hacked accounts and steal things from them and seek a way to get money fast from the acc.
8.P.c is quiting wow and wants to make some fast and easy gold so he can sell it for real money (yea they do exist:S)
9-10. P.c didnt look at the other accs but used some old data from some of his addon when he put it up on the AH, or he meant to put it out for 25k.

[Zorgen]

Your just mad cause you can't overcharge for your stuff.

[Thokh]

Don't waste time thinking about idiots doing this. Just don't. Your item will probably sell some time soon anyway.

All the response I've been getting from people in my guild who knows jack shit about how the auction house works state things like: ''I'm not greedy'', ''I want it to sell fast'', ''I farmed the mats''. In other words, they're complete idiots regarding this subject. Convincing them to think otherwise has proven utterly pointless. Therefore, don't waste your time thinking about this.

Either buy their stock, or just wait it out. You can't make stupid people intelligent. I will say this though, maybe someone is smart enough to get it: there is no overcharging and no item is too expensive - if it sells. Supply and goddamn demand. Not like our entire society is built on that principle or anything.

[fidelm]

This is why I undercut by a ton:

Me: Post blue gem for 130g
P1: 129g
P2: 125g
P3: 120g
Me (repost with a bunch): 45g

Reason? Undercutter's auctions don't sell and they don't come back because the price is too low. So, I repost back up to my original price and make monies. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. FYI, I can buy the base gem for 35g or less. So, I still make a tiny profit on the really low undercut. I spend more than I like to on a repost, but because the profit margin is so large...it doesn't matter.

[procne]

Don't waste time thinking about idiots doing this. Just don't. Your item will probably sell some time soon anyway.

All the response I've been getting from people in my guild who knows jack shit about how the auction house works state things like: ''I'm not greedy'', ''I want it to sell fast'', ''I farmed the mats''. In other words, they're complete idiots regarding this subject. Convincing them to think otherwise has proven utterly pointless. Therefore, don't waste your time thinking about this.

Either buy their stock, or just wait it out. You can't make stupid people intelligent. I will say this though, maybe someone is smart enough to get it: there is no overcharging and no item is too expensive - if it sells. Supply and goddamn demand. Not like our entire society is built on that principle or anything.

This is a game and people play it for fun. Increasing this one number near golden coin image is not a goal for everyone. Who are you to judge people like this and tell them they are intelligent or not?

If someone finds it fun undercutting you by 50% so that he doesnt have to collect expired auctions from mailbox or so that he doesnt have to check for undercuts then whats the problem?

I repeat - some people dont play this game to make as much gold as possible. Not that there are many things to do with it anyway.

Seems like this our society has imprinted greed for money so deeply in you that even in game you have to make analysis and race with others to have biggest account possible :S

[themortalgod]

I think the core problem is that people don't understand that all materials have an intrinsic value, regardless of how they are earned. Furthermore I suspect many people are farming mats rather than buying them off the AH.

For example, a player farms the mats to make a Blue Gem and puts it up on the auction house for 30G. They look at it as a 30G profit. However, if they had bothered to check the value of the material they used to create the gem they would realise they took materials with a value of well over 100g and that by crafting them they have turned 100g into 30g.

I agree it is annoying. For example, currently on my server it is impossible to make any money using the Alchemy Proffession. Not a single thing sells for more than the value of it's mats. Most things several times lower. Rare Gems cost between 100-150g to make and sell for 20g. Flasks costs over 1000G to make and sell for about 150G.

This is a reflection of ignorant players not realizing the intrinsic value of their materials. Thus as a result right now gathering professions and professions with a gathering skills (milling, disenchanting, etc) are highly profitable while professions that depend on crafting are not. It is especially odd considering the primarily crafting professions have a high cost to level.

But regardless, players will continue to ignore the base value of their mats. Broken down in simple terms if you are a Herb/Alch and gather 80g worth of herbs to make a 30g item that you then sell on the auction house. That means your herbalism skill nets 80g in profit while your Alchemy skill operated at a 50g loss.

If the players realized this then they would simply sell the materials instead of crafting the item. Thus driving down the price of the materials until the crafted item meets or exceeded the value of the materials. This is what happens in the real world. The only time produced objects sell for less than their material value in the real world is when a company is using an excessively marked down item to sell others which are selling at a profit.

WoW, however, has another major factor that cannot be ignored. Right now people are all leveling their professions. Thus there is a huge demand on the materials needed to level. Because of this players are simply putting up these items used for leveling at a fraction of the cost in order to recoup a fraction of their investment.

I imagine as the expansion matures the above issue will decline as it has in all the other expansions. I know it is frustrating but the reality is that it is NOT worthwhile to level most professions right now. Instead you should be selling all your raw materials and simply buying crafted items you need off the auction house at the massively deflated prices. Then once costs settle you can level the profession when it becomes more economical to craft your own goods.

Although even that isn't guaranteed. On my server it was never worthwhile to craft your own enchants during wrath. I lvled mine to 405 to be able to DE anything and enchant my rings. Cost of lvling to 450 aside, alll the enchants always sold for 30-40% less than their materials. Thus I simply sold all my enchanting mats and bought scroll throughout the whole expansion. Thus making my enchanting profession more profitable than the max enchanters.


As for players massively de-valuing things outside of the crafting. For example taking a material worth 90g and marking it down to 10g. This is simply an act of impatience and also ignorance. Generally speaking, players by what they need when they need it at the current going price. Thus if all the sellers continually marked down in small increments supply and demand will naturally determine the price. If supply is beyond the demand more marking down will occur and prices will fall. If demand is beyond supply the material will be bought up faster than it can be undercut thus driving the price upwards. By adding an item in at a massively devalued the price the item becomes arbitrarily devaluted and the price stops reflecting the balance of supply and demand.

In this other players have the potential for significant profit. If someone massively undercuts, buy theirs and re list at the real price. The downside of this though is that it takes a lot of vigilance as most players don't do this. Thus often when someone does a massive undercut the natural undercutting begins again at the lower price point. Once again reflecting seller ignorance. Often by the time I log in and see the massive undercut too many players have re-listed at the new price point for me to viably buy up all the stock.

But then again here is another opportunity for profit. And some players do this I am sure.

For example, they see an item up for lets say 2g each or 40g/stack. They Then buy a few stacks of it and re-list them as singles for 0.5g each. Thus driving the market down 75% Because they are re-listing as singles instead of stacks players think they are several pages of it at that price and thus that MUST be the right price so they start undercutting. The original player then cancels his auctions and buys up all the cheap materials he has manipulated down to a lower price. Thus exposing all the higher priced ones again. Net result is the player has just "scammed" a bunch of players into selling their materials to him at a massively deflated value. Which he will then in return re list at their natural price at a significant profit. This method, however, is high risk as it is possible that no one undercuts you before all your materials sell which in turn will mean you operated at a loss.

I also lately, have been experimenting with supply hoarding as a method of driving prices up. And have found it really doesn't work. For example one experiment I spent around 10k gold and bought up every Carnelian on the AH. The goal of this experiment was to see if by removing a huge amount of material from the market if A) the price of Carnelian's would rise beyond their initial amount. and B) if the price of things carnelians are used to make go up (Inferno Rubies, Cut Carnelian's etc)

After buying all the Carnelians up I re-listed 3 stacks at about 50% higher and waited. Ironically the opposite of what generally happens in the real world occurred. Players immediately started listing their new carnelian auctions at exactly the old price. (which suggests players are not refreshing their auctioneer before posting). Furthermore the price of Carnelians quickly fell to far below what they started and the price of Carnelians on the server stayed 30-40% lower for the next few days. Also what was funny is that the prices of the crafted items (Inferno Rubies, etc) stayed the same.

Once again the result of this experiment reflects player ignorance. In the real world. Say if OPEC holds back oil reserves to drive up oil prices their competitors don't respond by driving it down again. It is funny that this happens in WoW but I guess its just the nature of a system where the players A) Don't have to worry about the impact of personal poverty. (imagine how the AH would change if players had to feed their toons or lose them.) and B) Don't care about maximizing their profits.

I, however, as many do find it frustrating. Farming mats is NOT why I play WoW and I definitely do not find 8 hours Herbing fun. I can't imagine many players do. However because of this constant de-valuing players are only hurting themselves.

Anyway, hope this sheds some light. Good luck everyone!

[Sphincter]

Person C has down syndrome. It pisses me off to no end.

Best option is to place your item back up after the cheap ones have been sold although some other idiot will just do it again.

[Solarshot]

The demand is there. Why not undercut by silver rather than so much gold.

Assuming you've got a 50/50 split on those gems, that's (50*20)+(50*10)=1,500 gold you just didn't care enough about to change the numbers.

because if you dont undercut by a reasonable amount, or dont out supply the other then there is no point since odds are you will both just continuously outpost each other.

[Sorrowreach]

This thread starter is describing a relatively common phenomenon that occurs shortly after the release of a new expansion. I have watched this phenomenon occur 3 times now, and still don't understand it. If items are selling at a specific price, it would normally be considered to be in everyone's best interests to keep the price high while the market will bear it. The radical under cutters are the people who inevitably determine what the settling price will be long term.

Of course, you can get back at them and just buy all their low priced goods and resell them at a higher rate. I have friends who actually play the AH this way, and have successfully amassed fortunes of 100k plus gold doing this over the course of an expansion.

[Antiseptic]

Person C is me, and forces person A or B to buy mine and repost, then I put another up and own them as no one has need for their item at that price.

[Kallixenia]

lol at the undercut rage.

What I do:

• I farm ALL my mats while I'm playing regularly.
• I make things I know are going to sell out of said mats.
• I undercut you by a lot because I know one of two things will happen:
  
  • Someone will see the massive price drop and buy it to resell, or because they don't want to pay your outrageous prices.
  • Someone (you) will buy it and repost, further pissing off the market so the next one I put up will go for even more when I undercut you by only 25% instead of 50%+

What I DON'T do:

• Specifically farm for mats. EVER. (Unless it's for something I'm making for myself, but I don't count, frankly.)
• Buy mats off the AH. Period. (Not even if I'm making it for myself.)
• Worry about getting absolute top gold for whatever I sell (I leave that to you to obsess over.)
• Give a shit about your profit margins. (Do you think Dell cares if they're raping Gateway's market? I sure don't.)

Of course, this attitude has left me with a paltry amount of gold in my bank, the minuscule sum of 617…






…thousand.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go swim in my wealth, Scrooge McDuck style.

[Epsilon]

Person A and C is the same person. That person sells something for an insane amount, then logs onto another character and sells the same thing for a lot cheaper, so it seems like person C is selling it for really cheap.

[Deleted]

Person C is me, and forces person A or B to buy mine and repost, then I put another up and own them as no one has need for their item at that price.

Well I know that person A spends entire day at the Auction House. I cant do that because I want to do dungeons, I want to PVP, I want to level alts... All in all I want to enjoy the game instead of camping damn AH all day.

That's why I undercut for a larger amount (usually 5-10%). If I undercut for 1 copper as soon as I leave the AH person A would undercut me back for another 1 copper, causing me to not sell anything. This way A will be forced to buyout my stuff, and I'll still make a small profit.

[Mr_Bojangles]

Ah, but there's a flaw in your argument. Mats don't cost 14k unless you're buying them on the auction house. Instead, mats cost time. By farming the mats and undercutting, a player is showing that your time is not worth as much as you think it is.

Personally, I think that the vast majority of items on the AH are overpriced and if undercutting a bit with my own mats can help lower the overall price, I'm fine with that. I still make plenty of profit as, once again, all I have invested is time. Yes, time = money, but there's a point where you're being a good businessman and a point where you're being exceptionally greedy.

There's a flaw in that logic. Mats are the backbone of the wow economy, everything is priced in relation to them. If the mats to make an item cost 12k, it should sell for something above that. If you are saying that someone can farm the mats themselves, and post lower, well then, they should sell the mats instead for the higher mat price. The rules of business fully apply here, wow is just a game, but it has a full blown economy. Depending on your server, selling for low prices could either be going to poor player that needs the item, or more likely, a player who does business all day long.


Before you say "they're just greedy, we don't need them raising prices", you need to think about the people who DO like them buying everything. Anyone who farms benefits from these people raising the prices. However, like I said, if someone farms, then sells the item for less then mat cost, they are only screwing over themselves and their own work. To anyone complaining about being undercut, either it's possible to buy the item being sold, and repost it for quick and easy profit, or if you can't that's the actual value of the item.

One final thing to note: If the price of the mats exceed what people are willing to pay for the item, then it is no longer a useful item. In the business world, it's called a discontinued item. Over the course of the xpac, some items will just no longer be worth making, and that's how it should be.

edit: @Kallix: Obviously for you, you enjoy spending your time farming, or have some set of time farming, but for most players, they farm when they need something specifically. So while your bottom line may not be an issue to you, it is to a lot of players. If everyone played like you, you wouldn't have that gold, because you wouldn't have anyone to sell to.