Hit isn't king anymore - how and why

[gualdhar]

Yeah I think this whole theory works but only in a few certain classes. If it's just Spell 1, Spell 2, Spell 2, Spell 2 rinse repeat, yeah Int will get the better results, but when the rotation is Spell 1, Spell 2 (proc to cast Spell 3), Spell 3, Spell 4 (resets CD on Spell 2) etc then hit is by far superior.

And I can't think of a huge amount of cases where missing that certain proc, or getting that one spell to land to not lose the biggest damage of your rotation doesn't apply. Sure it can be argued that well that one special spell won't always be the one that misses, but in the usual way of RNG sometimes that will happen.

Say if you're raiding, you have a set job to dps down X, Y and Z before moving back to the boss and some majorly helpful spell doesn't hit say Chain lightning on some low health adds that it would've one shot, and then you need to waste another 3 or 4 global cds on, that's a dps loss where one spell would have sufficed.

First, this is the warlock forum, we don't cast chain lightning.

Second, Simcraft takes this stuff into account. It uses the same priority list we do, casts stuff spell by spell, checks what happens, then continues on the list. If simcraft misses 500 immolates in a row, it will cast 501 in a row, and record the whole thing. That is exactly why we go through 10k iterations when we get stat weights - it removes the randomness of RNG as much as possible.

No one is saying 100% hit is a bad thing. We ARE saying that 100% hit at all cost is a net DPS loss, and you're making the decision to lower your dps to make it more regular. Its like eating fiber: most of us aren't gonna get the hard poopies any time soon if we don't eat it, but the RNG of bowel movements may bite us in the ass sometime in the future.

so for the blue sockets, should i just put pure int gems in them? or is int/hit okay? i mean the socket boni are nice atm

Roughly speaking, if the socket bonus is at least +20 Int, then gem for the color of the socket, otherwise go straight Int.

[Malleus]

Short version, you're not in the elemental shaman forum now are you?

So? Gherkin said the theory applied to all casters.

[Xerix]

Crit is better than hit too, because it hits for twice as much.

[Jadora]

This whole post (imo) is worded to stir up controversy when all the op is saying is known facts. Reforging for Hit > Gemming for hit. Anybody who is any good at their class will do this and get to cap.

TLDR: Clever troll got you guys good.

[gekko513]

Well I'm not sure about this one. As an Elemental Shaman I'd rather see my lava burst hit less than miss, as it always crit.

Unless lava burst boosts your other spells in any way, then yes, int is better than hit if the values posted here are correct. Think about it like this.

Let's say you're at the hit cap and gem to int so that you get 1% chance to miss. Then fight a very long bossfight and compare the two. On average you will in case one cast 100 lava bursts and do nic damage with that, but if you gem for intellect. 99 lava bursts will hit and 1 will miss, but those 99 that hit will do 1.42% more damage.

You will in total, and on average, do 0.38% more damage by dropping 1% hit for int.


But, on the other hand, sometimes 1% miss results in more than 1% dps loss if the spell that misses affects other spells or the rotatation. That depends on the class and spec.

For moonkins this gets complicated to calculate. Spell misses during build up and use of eclipse should probably cancel each other out with regards to how a miss affects solar and lunar energy. Dot misses are a bit more complicated. If a dot is missed, then there will be at least one spell cast in between before you notice. Dot downtime reduces the chance for Shooting Stars to proc. Because of the reaction time, a dot miss that ideally would reduce the dot uptime by at least 16% instead of 8% if you could anticipate the miss and immediately recast it. I don't know how much dps Shooting Stars accounts for of our total. Then also, recasting a missed high dpct dot might be time better spent than casting the filler nukes, so 1% miss with a dot could maybe be less than 1% dps loss because of that, and that complicates the calculation even further.

[gherkin]

This is just so untrue. While it may look nice and dandy on the spreadsheets of yours, missing for example a Haunt would result in such a massive DPS loss it wouldn't be even funny.
It will still be either hit cap or go home for me. No matter what you folks try to feed me with.

If this is the case, why are you trying to raid without sufficient hit rating gear to do it? It sounds as if you're willing to do the bare minimum to get into raids, and as soon as you're at hit cap you stop getting gear and wait for free purples. Or you didn't read the post, just the title, and burped out a reply.

As I said, it's not about NOT being hit capped, it's about getting hit capped from hit rating already on your gear and reforging. If you're coming up short then you need more gear, not Rigid Ocean Sapphires.

[Kewk]

As a Shaman (so far) it has been quite simple to get enough hit from gear. I'm actually over by .25 with just gear. This thread is interesting and I am not opposed to taking out all my haste gems and replacing them with int just see what it does to my numbers. I'm a JC and have tons of gems anyways so why not? >_<

[gualdhar]

As a Shaman (so far) it has been quite simple to get enough hit from gear. I'm actually over by .25 with just gear. This thread is interesting and I am not opposed to taking out all my haste gems and replacing them with int just see what it does to my numbers. I'm a JC and have tons of gems anyways so why not? >_<

Keep in mind this was done with warlock numbers. While I bet ele shaman are similar, you should probably run simcraft just in case.

[Grizzlehorn]

As I said, it's not about NOT being hit capped, it's about getting hit capped from hit rating already on your gear and reforging. If you're coming up short then you need more gear, not Rigid Ocean Sapphires.

I almost wish that you would put this in bold and paste it every other sentence in the OP. I don't understand how people read an intelligent post like yours and walk away with, "Hit cap doesn't matter anymore". I would say that the statement, "Hit is devalued", is just as dangerous. Hit isn't devalued as much as Int as become king, plain and simple. Primary and secondary stats aren't a confusing concept.

Hit is *arguably* the best secondary stat up to cap. However, I didn't realize that this debate is as ongoing and opinionated as the Haste vs. Mastery debate for Holy Priests, before I put my foot in my mouth and commented.

That's what brought me to this thread. I wanted to see the source of the "hit-cap doesn't matter" movement. Imagine my shock when I see an intelligent post that practically says in bold face text, "Hit cap still matters, simply don't take hit over Int".

Thanks for the post, Gherkin, it is a great read. I just wish people would actually read it.

[Deleted]

"Hit is still the best secondary stat up to cap" not true for shadow priests

[Nurvus]

This is about Gemming Hit vs Reforging Hit - obviously it's more profitable to sacrifice a secondary stat to Hit, than sacrificing a your Primary dps stat - so you reforge Hit.

[Deleted]

Who gems hit?

[Jessicka]

Necromanced thread is necromanced with it's old news.

[Deleted]

Lets start with a basic assumption: I think we can all agree that reducing your chance to miss by 1% results in an approximate 1% dps increase. Yes, I'm aware that there are numbers after the decimal place, but for simplicity's sake lets just say 1% is close enough. (There are people who can prove that 1% Hit is sometimes 1.2% DPS. The following conclusions are still correct in this case.)

this assumption of yours is so wrong. 1% less hit can mean a lot more than 1.2% dps loss. its just rng, depends what spell u miss. and i'm not neccesarily talking about haunt, because it's been mentioned many times already, but think about missing an UA: it takes 1-2 global cooldowns to even realise it missed, and after that u start casting it => in 2, maybe 3, lost ticks. this is a whole lot more than 1% total dmg. if our rotation would be shadowbolt spam like it used to be, then ye 1% hit would mean 1% total dmg. but this is not the case.
ignoring math and statistics for a moment, missing a spell can be fucking annoying, why would u want your play-style to be annoying? when u can have a smooth rotation, planning your next spells ahead of time by watching the timers.

u cant value hit with just math. hit is a lot more valuable than most of the guides say, its better than intellect imo.

ideally, u reforge your gear to get as close to hit cap as possible, and then the fine tuning consists of 1-2 gems with hit/intel in blue sockets. whenever u change your gear, u can also change a gem too, so you stay as close to, but above hit cap.

[Penguin FTW]

I'm so glad I don't have to compromise my gemming to get hit capped

[Orange Joe]

this assumption of yours is so wrong. 1% less hit can mean a lot more than 1.2% dps loss. its just rng, depends what spell u miss. and i'm not neccesarily talking about haunt, because it's been mentioned many times already, but think about missing an UA: it takes 1-2 global cooldowns to even realise it missed, and after that u start casting it => in 2, maybe 3, lost ticks. this is a whole lot more than 1% total dmg. if our rotation would be shadowbolt spam like it used to be, then ye 1% hit would mean 1% total dmg. but this is not the case.
ignoring math and statistics for a moment, missing a spell can be fucking annoying, why would u want your play-style to be annoying? when u can have a smooth rotation, planning your next spells ahead of time by watching the timers.

u cant value hit with just math. hit is a lot more valuable than most of the guides say, its better than intellect imo.

ideally, u reforge your gear to get as close to hit cap as possible, and then the fine tuning consists of 1-2 gems with hit/intel in blue sockets. whenever u change your gear, u can also change a gem too, so you stay as close to, but above hit cap.

your opinion is just that your opinion if we are talking about facts the testing show that int is valued higher then hit

and yes with bad rng hit can make you lose alot of dps just like good rng can gain you alot of dps

in the end this is what testing show if you think it is wrong prove it with your own testing and show why hit > int

[Penguin FTW]

Simcraft isn't the word of god, y'know. It's not always right

[Orange Joe]

that works both ways you know it's not always wrong either?

this has been proving in raids at least for me i sit at about 14%hit (all gear reforged to hit when possible gem = int unless socket bonus is 20+ int) i out dps people with hit cap

i guess i could be raiding with bad players but something tells me that being them being 4/13hm (them not me!!) they aren't that bad

[Penguin FTW]

that works both ways you know it's not always wrong either?

I never said that

And your fellow warlocks are probably bad, but I can't say without logs

[Orange Joe]

I never said that

And your fellow warlocks are probably bad, but I can't say without logs

i was talking casters in general as this applies to pretty much all casters not just locks
as far as locks... no my current guild has 1 other raiding lock and she blows me away..
she also has better gear and more experience at the current tier them me i'm 12/12 while she is 4/13



also i'm guessing you ment that more as a joke same as my reply was written text lacks so much