Heroic Maloriak 10 vs 25

[unplugged]

No, they are confirming that it CAN be approached differently, but not if it is meant to or not, the only people who can say that are the ones who designed the encounter. If Blizzard designed it so 10 and 25 need to use different thought processes based on what classes they can fit into a raid to kill a boss then I'm fine with that, I'm more concerned, perhaps cynically, that this is just a huge blunder on the tuning side, since it doesn't fit the mould of the rest of the content.

Might be just me , but i think if a fight is kill able without anything that is a blatant exploit. It's an intended way of doing the fight.

But i mean , i can arguably say that they increased the health on purpose in 10 man to make people do it differently, they are afterall , competent developers >_>.

And also , i think normal mode is not valid comparison since it's tuned to be easy and therefore one tactic can work anywhere.
But as far as the mold of the hardmodes , other hardmodes don't really have a general tactic in both versions. Mainly the ones with kiting involved.

[Paskgotsheal]

.

For all we know they intend for you to do something different on 10m which would, in my opinion, actually make it equal to a 25m raid instead of it being just the same thing with lower numbers. If that were always the case 10m would NEVER equal to a 25m raid due to logistics. So maybe they want you to do something special with the adds to make up for that difference. Makes sense to me, as long as that extra thing isn't too crazy, and I don't think asking you to kite or try and damage them outside of the "intended" burn time is "too crazy".

It's doable, which is the main point of people posting advice to you. There's nothing else to discuss here really.



That site is missing many, many guilds. I don't deny your guilds skill (especially since you are successful with only 3 raid nights) but you should really go by WoWProgress if you're going to say stuff like that. But hey, you're US #18 on WoWProgress 10m and that's damn good.

Good luck.

Wowprogress counts a lot of 25 man kills as 10 man as well, making it less reliable for people. Thanks though, I get what your saying to netherfall, I am still debating how to do it tomorrow.

Question if I could, if you go to a third green phase do black adds spawn after again?

[G l o w y r m]

Unless you're a dev then it doesn't really matter. It's a case of how you 'can' do something vs how you 'should' do something.

Relevant responses in this thread are, ironically, wholly irrelevant, because the entire point this thread seems to be driving towards/around (when it is on topic) is to get some kind of clarification on whether Maloriak is intended to be approached in a different way on 10 and 25man heroic modes or if it is a tuning issue, and that won't be answered here.

We can still discuss it though, that's what forums are for.

I definitely think doing something different on 10m Heroic is a legit possibility of something Blizzard intended to make up for the difference in 10 and 25 that can never be made equal, which is the logistics of organizing 25 people as opposed to 10. So on 10m Heroics they want you do jump through an extra hoop instead of just doing the same thing with less damage and health.

Wowprogress counts a lot of 25 man kills as 10 man as well, making it less reliable for people. Thanks though, I get what your saying to netherfall, I am still debating how to do it tomorrow.

Question if I could, if you go to a third green phase do black adds spawn after again?

They only count like that for a littler while. It always fixes itself eventually once the system has time to register everyones armory.

The Phases will repeat in the exact order you got them, all of them, for the entire fight until you push him to his final phase, so I would guess yes.

[Mowg]

We can still discuss it though, that's what forums are for.

I definitely think doing something different on 10m Heroic is a legit possibility of something Blizzard intended to make up for the difference in 10 and 25 that can never be made equal, which is the logistics of organizing 25 people as opposed to 10. So on 10m Heroics they want you do jump through an extra hoop instead of just doing the same thing with less damage and health.

In the small chance you are absolutely correct, and that the devs did intend 10H to kite the adds and 25H to simply AoE them down, would you agree that what they've accomplished is very bad game design? Currently, there are very few specs in the game that are optimal at AoE kiting - surely then that goes against the whole Philosophy of bring the player not the class, especially since the real estate of 10 man raiding is a whole lot more expensive than 25 man (i.e. You really have a limited choice on who you can bring for 10 man compared to 25 man). It is a hell of a lot less likely that your 10 man has more than 1 raider capable of optimal AoE kiting compared to a 25 man counterpart who have a lot of choice.

Surely then, the devs should have the 25 man version tactics as "AoE Kiting" and 10 man as "Burst AoE damage" (which obviously would need a change in hit point numbers for the adds). However, I personally don't believe Blizzard did intend things to go this way and even if it did, it just proves how much harder Maloriak H is on 10 man if kiting and compromising positioning is required, as opposed to 25H where they simply need to stand still and brute force the adds down with their bigger numbers.

Whilst it's commonly argued that the logistics of 25 man raiding is harder than 10 man raiding, I personally believe that both share their same weight of difficulties, it's just their factors of difficulties are different. 25 Mans have the option to bring and extra healer or tank and have a minimal hit to their DPS, however as soon as 10 mans require and extra healer or tank (H-Halfus requires a very odd setup for 10-man) there's a massive hit to DPS.

[Lusitan]

All heroics are considerable harder on 10m than 25m, purely for a single reason, u cant stack class/specc.

i think Blizzard should introduce a Cap on the amount of certain spec u can bring to a 25m, cause it hilarious how u can just simple stack on on spec and win in 25m

Nef - druids
Maloriak - demo locks
etc....

[rallica]

^^ This guy knows what he's talking about.

[Yagamoth]

Both sides do have good arguments and none of them is really wrong, that's shown enough in this thread. However I'd like to point out some things:

The main problems to that is not necessarily, that 10 man is harder (although I don't deny that in certain encounters), but most of all one thing: 10 mans needs different tactics in general, and more often than not, in Heroic encounters.

-> Most HM Progressions Guilds are 25 mans
--> This leads to far fewer general tactics/guides SPECIFICALLY for 10 mans, and that's because of:
----> 1. The "best" strategists, tactics-inventer, theorycrafter, etc. are in the 25 front-guilds
----> 2. The 10m guilds so far never had to make their own tactics (thus have barely any experience in it)
----> 3. Few people realize, that 10m is basically something different than 25m (as much as normal and hero-mode is different)
----> 4. 10m guilds try to stick with 25m tactics (Only few are willing to try their own things)
----> 5. Because for some 10m the 25m tactics worked, others copy them without thinking of something different

Want a perfect example of how the tactics, with which the front-guilds downed a boss for the first time are not always the best, but are actually simply the tactics that "worked"?
-> Professor Putricide. Everyone tried to copy the "left/right-running" where actually "staying at green" was much, much easier and simpler, but only few thought of it and many even stayed at the running-tactic after knowing about it because "it's known, we don't want to change, it worked after all..."... They had to adapt for Hardmodes..

Once again, I do NOT deny, that some 10m HM are overtuned. But try to figure out some things on your own, invent stuff, go for something that seems crazy at first

[Paskgotsheal]

We can still discuss it though, that's what forums are for.

I definitely think doing something different on 10m Heroic is a legit possibility of something Blizzard intended to make up for the difference in 10 and 25 that can never be made equal, which is the logistics of organizing 25 people as opposed to 10. So on 10m Heroics they want you do jump through an extra hoop instead of just doing the same thing with less damage and health.



They only count like that for a littler while. It always fixes itself eventually once the system has time to register everyones armory.

No, wowprogress is still incredibly broken if you actually looked.

For example

http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/rating.tier11_10

There's 4 actual 10 mans on that list of 20 there, the other 16 never did 10 mans, but the armory just only registered a few and it never went back and fixed itself. Guildox is much much more reliable, also there's a post about it on wowprogress here : http://www.wowprogress.com/post/64_E...%2F25_rankings
Pretty much everyone who posts said they got 10 man credit when they actually did it on 25, thus making the ranking completely wrong.

[Deleted]

Seems like they fixed wowprogress to show the actual 10man kills.

[Paskgotsheal]

edit; im retarded

[Fereh]

This fight is badly tuned for 10 man guilds.
I do not believe Blizzard intended for 10 man guilds to resort to kiting the adds instead of killing them, but the retarded healthpools the adds got is "impossible" to get down.

Getting enough classes with sufficient AoE is even hard for a 10 man guild, seeing how the different bosses requires different setups and the roster will have to be extremely large to have the best setup for each boss.

We have tried Maloriak 10 man some nights now, with different kind of setups, the one we used today was:
Tanks: DK(Maloriak), Warrior (Adds)
DPS: Rogue, 2x Demo Locks, Mage, Enhancement shaman.
Healers: Rdruid, Rshaman and Holy Paladin.

We had the Enhancement shaman interrupting the Arcane Storms with CoT up, and I (Rogue) interrupted the Release Aberrations.
I interrupted the first Release Aberrations before the black phase, then after killing the adds in black phase, I let one Aberration through, then interrupted the following one, then I went off the boss and ignored him for the next phase (letting all 2 Aberration casts go through to get 9x adds) and just sat on the adds to stack up the DP stacks before green phase to maximize the dps output.
Green phase came, and all the adds had 5x DP stacks on them, I vanished for overkill buff and used the Tol'vir potion.
I then tricksed the mage and we started AoEing the adds down (Combustion -> fireblast spread / Meta - Hellfire / immolate aura blabla) and they got to like 30-35% health.

I have not tried the encounter in 25 man, but I have only seen some videos of the fight and I must say that it looks a lot easier to get the adds down.

meh, the fight is really dumb :|

[Paskgotsheal]

Past hotfix they took off 1.2 MILLION health from the adds. Ie 30% of what they were. Wasn't possible to kill the adds before (but we did kill it Sunday pre nerf!)

Just wanted to bump this to make fun of all the idiots who seriously thought 25 man and 10 man would have such drastically different strategies.

Sorry 25, 10 is way harder

[Killsyah]

From my understanding, ads in 25 man have about 7 mil HP, correct me if im wrong

If you cant do so, stop the QQ and learn to deal with a HARD mode boss, ty.

[FattGuy]

Past hotfix they took off 1.2 MILLION health from the adds. Ie 30% of what they were. Wasn't possible to kill the adds before (but we did kill it Sunday pre nerf!)

Just wanted to bump this to make fun of all the idiots who seriously thought 25 man and 10 man would have such drastically different strategies.

Sorry 25, 10 is way harder

Grats on the kill. Its about time these idiots who say "Deal with hardmodes" don't know anything about 10 vs. 25. Glad Blizzard finally nerfed the amount of hp on those adds to make it possible to kill.

[Paskgotsheal]

From my understanding, ads in 25 man have about 7 mil HP, correct me if im wrong

If you cant do so, stop the QQ and learn to deal with a HARD mode boss, ty.

You are wrong and didn't even read the OP! Stop shitting on my thread if you can't even read the first post ffs

[Ultima]

Leave this thread alone now. Read the front page.

Come back once you have seen it in action.