What am i doing wrong? - Rogue assasination rotation

[vth99]

I'm not sure why everyone tells you to open with garrote. For me this is completely wrong. I open always with Mutilate which gives me 2-3 points for SnD and not only 1 which makes SnD fall very quickly. After that Muti > Rupture > Vendetta > Muti and so on. In my experience if you open with garrote you have very big chances to drop the SnD if you are going for 5p Rupture next.

opening with garrot gievs you better energy regen if youve got the right talents, more energy allows you to do more mutilate later, if you also have rupture on ure able to output more dps, than opening with muti. or thats atleast my experience

[surr3a1]

That makes sense of course, but I've been too close to drop SnD too many times (and dropped it) when starting with garrote. In any case that extra mutilate that you're gonna do with the energy from the garrote will not boost your dps at all that much as you may think.
It is a matter of how you prefer it I suppose.

[Deleted]

they've confirmed on ej that opening with garrotte will lead to more dps if u can get one off a few seconds into the fight

[Deleted]

they've confirmed on ej that opening with garrotte will lead to more dps if u can get one off a few seconds into the fight

But does EJ take into account the low combat ratings available at 85? It's all well and good theorycrafting about perfect priority queue/rotations with BiS gear (maybe even level 80 BiS gear @ 80), but if at the end of the day most of your damage comes from melee/white attacks regardless, then getting up ASAP and keeping up SnD (though keeping it up is less of an issue due to 4+ Envenom) is a hell of a lot more important than a little bit more energy for one more Mut.

In short and ONLY with openers, with low combat ratings, its seems to be a choice between,

1) Open with Garotte and eventually be forced to choose between a low CP Envenom or letting SnD fall off momentarily.
2) Open with Mutilate and lose the energy of one more Mut but have enough CPs to slot in SnD perfectly.

Any main rogue tried both, specifically in mind of initial SnD management, in 85 heroic and raid contexts and can indicate which is better? Or maybe there is an alternative?

[cupholder]

And don't forget the venomous wounds damage on top of that.

[Deleted]

And don't forget the venomous wounds damage on top of that.

Ah, good point. After say 2-gcds to re-apply SnD after a fall-off with my first scenario, you have an 84% chance for Venemous Wounds to proc the extra nature damage which would be more than any double white attacks (say with 1.5 speed daggers) other than double crits in that window of time.

Looks like Garotte is always the best opener then, regardless of gear or combat ratings just through talents alone.

[callango]

I'm not sure why everyone tells you to open with garrote. For me this is completely wrong. I open always with Mutilate which gives me 2-3 points for SnD and not only 1 which makes SnD fall very quickly. After that Muti > Rupture > Vendetta > Muti and so on. In my experience if you open with garrote you have very big chances to drop the SnD if you are going for 5p Rupture next.

Because there is a talent that makes garrote's ticks regen your energy
I am opening with garrote > mut > slice and dice > 2x mut > rupture > 2x mut > envenom ... slice and dicing with just one point from garrote always screws up my rotation.

But I kinda agree with you. EJ does a lot of teorycrafting, but when you take latency in consideration, the boss moving around like an idiot, because your tank is positioning himself and other external factors, opening with garrote does not seem to be viable.

[Reptar]

I'm not sure how people are saying SnD drops when they open w/ Garotte. I've been doing Garrote, snd, mut, rupture, mut X2 (X1 if ruthlessness procs), vendetta, cold blood, envenom. After that, I just follow priority while energy pooling. In theory and in practice, I've never had Snd drop this way, and you get both garotte + rupture up right away for energy regen + venemous wounds procs.

[chocobo123]

-Open with garrote if u're easily get into the mob back with less than 5 seconds
-If u have to waste more than 5 sec to find enemy's back, then open with mutilate will yield u better dps
-In heroic, ur rotation worth a lot if u counting trash, sometimes u need to do envinom instead of refresh some to boost ur dps up on mob before it dies. But on boss, u shouldnt have problem with dps as long as u get the gear to spell hit and use proper rotation/cooldown of all skills.

[Gnull]

I'm not sure how people are saying SnD drops when they open w/ Garotte. I've been doing Garrote, snd, mut, rupture, mut X2 (X1 if ruthlessness procs), vendetta, cold blood, envenom. After that, I just follow priority while energy pooling. In theory and in practice, I've never had Snd drop this way, and you get both garotte + rupture up right away for energy regen + venemous wounds procs.

I think most people are trying to get 4-5 CP up before doing their first rupture. If you are Rupturing earlier in the cycle (if I'm reading your rotation right, you are hitting Rupture on 2-3 CP from a single Mut, no?), you can keep SnD up with no problem, but there is a little trade off in that you have to refresh Rupture sooner than you would otherwise. It's one of several potential tradeoffs you can make if you are having trouble keeping SnD up.

I suspect this problem may vanish completely at higher tiers of gear, since Haste effects energy regen. If I make no extra effort at all, I typically find that I am just a few ticks short of having enough energy for an Envenom with my current (fairly crappy) gear.

[Evolixe]

hey, firstly you might need to sort out ur stats. Your hit chance is very low and that can rly gimp ur dps, Aim for 17% on spell, you're lacking some reforging on your kit also. If u can reforge to hit, do so. If not - mastery. 3rd stat being haste if u cant reforge to them two.

Rotation wise, i mean it sounds ok- just make sure ur keeping max uptime on ur SnD and rupture an even buff, proper energy management etc. Combining vendetta with ur trinket procs or the on use mastery is very handy. Make sure you use vanish as a DPS CD if you can, using overkill with again trinket procs, or vendetta can be quite handy.

Finally- just take a browse htru http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t110134-...on_guide_cata/ if you havent done so already, it has everything you'll really need to know to maximising your class.

Maybe put ur kit into http://shadowcraft-test.appspot.com/ also to see if ur performing anywhere near to what its saying, and you can also see what is an upgrade and what to reforge etc.

hf =)

To be honest, as of currently you are best off using your cooldowns immediately at the start of a fight unless there is a hard burn needed. Why? Because they will be up again sooner, allowing multiple times of usage is better than 1 optimal usage.

As of rotation: Garrote>SnD>Mut x2>Rupture>Evenom (most of the time ruthlessness has procced, use it, this evenom is only to keep SnD from falling off.) Mut x2>Evenom>Mut x2>Rupture. RnR

Edit: I tend to put on vendetta before putting on rupture aswell, so: Garrote>SnD>Mut x2>Vendetta>Rupture. Unless the boss will be dead before vendetta could be used a second time, then try getting optimal with trinkets etc.

[surr3a1]

"As of rotation: Garrote>SnD>Mut x2>Rupture>Evenom (most of the time ruthlessness has procced, use it, this evenom is only to keep SnD from falling off.)"

If however it has not procced your SnD is down for sure. There are trade offs here. If for you it happens that you never see problem starting with Garrote > SnD its perfectly fine to use that.
The rotation of Garrote > SnD > Muti X2 > Rupture > Muti X1 and then Evenom is almost impossible to do before the SnD is down. You can only keep it with one Muti before the Rupture --> if that is what you prefer then you can go that way I guess.

@callango: Garrote > Mut > SnD is not good at all since it gives you 4CP SnD which is a waste of points IMO.

For me personally the Garrote opener has brought me quite often to dropping the SnD or refreshing it in the last second, which is kind of the risk I don't like so much.

[Evolixe]

"As of rotation: Garrote>SnD>Mut x2>Rupture>Evenom (most of the time ruthlessness has procced, use it, this evenom is only to keep SnD from falling off.)"

If however it has not procced your SnD is down for sure. There are trade offs here. If for you it happens that you never see problem starting with Garrote > SnD its perfectly fine to use that.
The rotation of Garrote > SnD > Muti X2 > Rupture > Muti X1 and then Evenom is almost impossible to do before the SnD is down. You can only keep it with one Muti before the Rupture --> if that is what you prefer then you can go that way I guess.

@callango: Garrote > Mut > SnD is not good at all since it gives you 4CP SnD which is a waste of points IMO.

For me personally the Garrote opener has brought me quite often to dropping the SnD or refreshing it in the last second, which is kind of the risk I don't like so much.

I usually have about 3-5 seconds left on SnD when i did garrote > rupture, rarely ever making it drop off before i evenom.

Edit: Ok i just tested it: I would not have made it without the belf racial, so go with Garrote>SnD>Mut x1>Rupture>Evenom
Edit2: Unless you're a bloodelf ofcourse, arcane torrent and you can mut x2>rupture (yes i love edits :3 )

[Reptar]

I think most people are trying to get 4-5 CP up before doing their first rupture. If you are Rupturing earlier in the cycle (if I'm reading your rotation right, you are hitting Rupture on 2-3 CP from a single Mut, no?), you can keep SnD up with no problem, but there is a little trade off in that you have to refresh Rupture sooner than you would otherwise. It's one of several potential tradeoffs you can make if you are having trouble keeping SnD up.

I suspect this problem may vanish completely at higher tiers of gear, since Haste effects energy regen. If I make no extra effort at all, I typically find that I am just a few ticks short of having enough energy for an Envenom with my current (fairly crappy) gear.

In most cases the rupture is a 3 point rupture, which is going to be either 2-4 seconds less than what most people aim for with the 4+ finisher priority. By doing this though, it's worked out quite well for me. As a result, when I'm done I'm either muting 1-2X followed by envenom. At this point, I usually get a 5-6 second envenom buff up with about seconds left on my rupture. So, I think what people are missing, is if you waited at the beginning for a larger rupture, you'd only gain 2-4 seconds on it, which in the end wouldn't make a difference. If you gained those 2-4 seconds, then your rupture would be falling off right with the envenom buff instead of a few seconds before it, and you'd still be doing a 4+ rupture. So, the trade of, 2-4 seconds less rupture time at the beginning, but you get energy regen + venomous wound procs right away. Also, you can refresh your rupture sooner, and now have to worry about both rupture and the envenom buff dropping off at the same time.

[Phocket]

Rotation should be opening with garrote, mut, SnD, mutx2, rupture (after first rupture, i pop my macro for vendetta, trinkets, blood fury and lifeblood), mutx2, envenom. This will ensure that you have at least a 3pt SnD, and limits it's falling off. It also ensures that you have a 5 stack of D.P. before you envenom so it'll hit in the upper range.

Again, to reiterate, backstab at < 35% health, it not only improves energy regen (Mut has always been a "costly" cp builder) it also will crit about half the time for over 12K, and you can do it in rapid succession (where as you have to pool energy to mut).

Hope this helps.

Edit: make sure you don't clip your ruptures, generally refresh when there is < 1 second left (takes some practice, but you'll ensure maximum rupture uptime).

If you haven't already, download Rogue Power Bars to keep track of rupture times, SnD times, DP stacks, Envenom buff and countless other buffs/debuffs. I find it extremely useful.

[Wob]

I use vendetta at around 40% so that the backstabs go crazy

[Phocket]

I use vendetta at around 40% so that the backstabs go crazy

Depending on how long the fight is, popping Vendetta early will increase your dps then, and it'll be off cd for your backstab spamming at <35%.

Edit: You generally shouldn't "wait" to use trinkets or buffs that have a low cd, doing so will gimp your dps. This being said, you don't want to pop your cd's at the start of the fight, but you really don't want to pop them near the end.

[Seemps]

That's what I've been doing the whole time. But some people are telling me to do Rupture before Envenom in that rotation. The problem is that if I do Rupture first, my SnD will finish before I can Envenom. Does it matter if we do Envenom or Rupture first?

i messed up the rotation there : Vendetta - Garrote - SnD - Muti x 2 - CB - Envenom - Muti x 2 - rupture - Muti x 2 - Envenom so on and so on

it is important to get rupture up yes as you get energy back from rupture damage but any rogue worth his salts wants good dps and knows how to use ToT so using tot you should get your envenom off just before tot runs out giving tank nice aggro and you a nice opening burst of dps.

ive since changed my rotation again now and have incorperated Expose armour im not gonna comment on this right now but ill post up if any significant changes!!

[Deleted]

i messed up the rotation there : Vendetta - Garrote - SnD - Muti x 2 - CB - Envenom - Muti x 2 - rupture - Muti x 2 - Envenom so on and so on

it is important to get rupture up yes as you get energy back from rupture damage but any rogue worth his salts wants good dps and knows how to use ToT so using tot you should get your envenom off just before tot runs out giving tank nice aggro and you a nice opening burst of dps.

ive since changed my rotation again now and have incorperated Expose armour im not gonna comment on this right now but ill post up if any significant changes!!

Uh, what ... ?

Assassination = poison damage + spell hit = ignores armor.

Why would you gimp your normal rotation by inserting something frivolous that a tank could apply at any time, unless someone specifically requested it. In addition, I suspect for Assassination specifically compared to other melee specs (who can all apply it), that armor debuff would be particularly costly to your dps!

[Deleted]

open with garrote is fine if u can handle it... i think ur problem is that u dont do what u are writing. with your gear its not possible to do such less dmg if u really keep up everything like u said.

use coldblood to get extra energy if u got trouble with a dropping snd. if the first rupture comes out with 3cp its ok for the moment. in short fights, make sure u use every dmg cd with hero.