10 Man tuned properly?

[Deleted]

Indeed theres some major problems with 10hc atm, and the lack of blue respons on the matter. Gets me to think that they are working on a solution, but having problems with finding the rigth one.

[dakalro]

10s have always been harder and each person matters more. blizz doesn't know how to tune 10m raids

and stop with the WIDDLE SPACE MAKE RAID HARDER

unless the size of the space changes, you go to a point, if bill is too close to you, bill is fucking up, bill needs to be replaced

nothing hard about it at all

Space is relevant, extremely relevant on mini aoe fights (1 target + surroundings, LK HC is the best and most obivous example).
And if you wipe on a try when 1 player fails and each player has 10% chance to fail then you have 34% chance to succeed on 10 man. You have 7% chance to succeed on 25 man. When you first do heroics combat rezzing means shit, all fine and dandy until the n minutes pass and you end up with and angry boss owning you cause 1 or 3 people failed and you ran behind on healing/dps/tanking.

Let's even assume you have 11 players in 10 man and 28 in 25 man I still think chances are a lot higher statistically for the 25 man raid to fail. Not even a matter of wah get better players since both sizes have the same quality players.

All I am saying is yes, 1 dead player in 10 man matters more than in 25 man but the chance for a critical amount of players to fail in 25 man is a lot higher than in 10 man, simple stats. Overall this is balanced by amount of available combat rezzes.

[Deleted]

10s have always been harder and each person matters more. blizz doesn't know how to tune 10m raids

and stop with the WIDDLE SPACE MAKE RAID HARDER

unless the size of the space changes, you go to a point, if bill is too close to you, bill is fucking up, bill needs to be replaced

nothing hard about it at all

Actually, in WoTLK 10 mans were easier.

Yes, the advantage of 10mans is more space that'll allow your guild members spread out more easily than in 25 man raids,
but then again, there are a lot of downsides like i.e. -as mentioned- the value of one person in 10 man compared to 25.

it is also easier to get 10 people show up instead of 25, but if one doesn't show up and you only have 2-3 on standby that aren't really capable of replacing the missing one you're screwed, instead in 25 man rosters you usually have plenty of the same roles in standby.

from what i've experienced i could say that 10 mans (hardmodes mainly) are harder since they require as much abilities as 25 mans do, and you can't really have that with roster differences. there might be a few expections, but this is mainly a fact. just go look at how many guilds have actually killed things in 10 man heroic, and then compare that to 25 mans, I'm pretty sure it isn't just a question of "but we want to kill 25 man bosses cause we are a 25 man guild".

However, I wouldn't really count the space nor roster size a thing that would make anything harder or easier, just makes your guild communication effort bit higher.

[dakalro]

Indeed theres some major problems with 10hc atm, and the lack of blue respons on the matter. Gets me to think that they are working on a solution, but having problems with finding the rigth one.

Don't think there will be an easy solution until there's a real raiding scene in 10 man, like close to Paragon hardcore guilds that will show interest and waste days in 10 man heroics on PTRs. For this tier it's just gonna be fix on the go and then pray. Was expected for now, no real guilds actually tried 10 man HCs properly or at least devs showed no interest in helping the guilds that wanted to try later encounters (due to them being unknown most likely) skip the earlier ones. Have to wait and see how testing goes next tier.

[Yeran]

I think blizzard just never found the time to tune the 10man heroics. I'm doing normal modes right now and they feel fine. Sure it'd be easier with a hunter at some points, but not to an extent you feel crippled without one. Heroic modes are enother story, the tuning is just flawed. Some flaws have been adressed since release (like maloriak adds having about 2/3 of the 25man hp while you have way less damage dealers), many are still in the game.

So I guess sooner or later they will at least tune the raids in a way to can kill them with reasonable stacking. Right now several encounters are like impossible to kill in heroic 10man.

[Deleted]

Don't think there will be an easy solution until there's a real raiding scene in 10 man, like close to Paragon hardcore guilds that will show interest and waste days in 10 man heroics on PTRs. For this tier it's just gonna be fix on the go and then pray. Was expected for now, no real guilds actually tried 10 man HCs properly or at least devs showed no interest in helping the guilds that wanted to try later encounters (due to them being unknown most likely) skip the earlier ones. Have to wait and see how testing goes next tier.

Aye, but blizzard cant ignore the lack of progrees in 10hcs, and dont tell me theres not any 10 mans guilds with just as much skill as paragon ect. Theres alot of pro players out there. But as much as i hope your wrong, i guees you migth be rigth, atleast theres major forum threads going on both eu and us on the matter, which might be what is needed. Fingerscrossed

[Culexus]

Dont know why it would matter anyway. Raid the size you prefer to raid and stop the hate for the other size. Its not possible (like others have mentioned) to tune every fight exactly the same in both brackets. Alakir is a perfect example. In the end only thing that matters is if there are the same number of really hard fights in the same tier ... doesnt really matter if those are the same fights in both brackets. Example (totally made up!): 4 Fights hard in 25 man (chimaeron, maloriak, alakir and coucil) 4 fights hard in 10 man (halfus, omnitron, nefarian and magmaw).

If its this way i can live with different difficulties between the brackets.

[Deleted]

Its not hate for the other size mate, but some fights in 10hc are just plain impossible.

I dont recall seeing any 25hc halfus using 4 interuptes on halfus.
Mali gain like 500% hp in hc mode as where in 25 its like 150% if i remeber correct. Its silly.

They need to downturn 10man to the same as 25 in skillreq, or upturn 25 to the 10 level and make the 25man raiders start a whine wave which cant be stopped, if that happened we would see some changes asap.

[Culexus]

Its not hate for the other size mate, but some fights in 10hc are just plain impossible.

I dont recall seeing any 25hc halfus using 4 interuptes on halfus.
Mali gain like 500% hp in hc mode as where in 25 its like 150% if i remeber correct. Its silly.

They need to downturn 10man to the same as 25 in skillreq, or upturn 25 to the 10 level and make the 25man raiders start a whine wave which cant be stopped, if that happened we would see some changes asap.

As i said in my post:

If its this way i can live with different difficulties between the brackets.

Im 100% on your side. But i always see people hatin' and shit talking about guilds raiding the one or the other bracket. Not only on this site but ingame too. Just wanted to give my 2 cents to that

[blizzardcashshop]

Space is relevant, extremely relevant on mini aoe fights (1 target + surroundings, LK HC is the best and most obivous example).
And if you wipe on a try when 1 player fails and each player has 10% chance to fail then you have 34% chance to succeed on 10 man. You have 7% chance to succeed on 25 man. When you first do heroics combat rezzing means shit, all fine and dandy until the n minutes pass and you end up with and angry boss owning you cause 1 or 3 people failed and you ran behind on healing/dps/tanking.

Let's even assume you have 11 players in 10 man and 28 in 25 man I still think chances are a lot higher statistically for the 25 man raid to fail. Not even a matter of wah get better players since both sizes have the same quality players.

All I am saying is yes, 1 dead player in 10 man matters more than in 25 man but the chance for a critical amount of players to fail in 25 man is a lot higher than in 10 man, simple stats. Overall this is balanced by amount of available combat rezzes.

relevant, but not a big deal

if you have one dipshit who can't STAND HERE then replace him, he's not helping you and since you have 24 other people who have masked his badness this long, then replacing him really helps the raid

there is more than enough room even on al'akir, 25m have always been about 20-22 people taking up the slack that the 3-5 leave you

---------- Post added 2011-02-01 at 05:10 PM ----------

Actually, in WoTLK 10 mans were easier.

Yes, the advantage of 10mans is more space that'll allow your guild members spread out more easily than in 25 man raids,
but then again, there are a lot of downsides like i.e. -as mentioned- the value of one person in 10 man compared to 25.

it is also easier to get 10 people show up instead of 25, but if one doesn't show up and you only have 2-3 on standby that aren't really capable of replacing the missing one you're screwed, instead in 25 man rosters you usually have plenty of the same roles in standby.

from what i've experienced i could say that 10 mans (hardmodes mainly) are harder since they require as much abilities as 25 mans do, and you can't really have that with roster differences. there might be a few expections, but this is mainly a fact. just go look at how many guilds have actually killed things in 10 man heroic, and then compare that to 25 mans, I'm pretty sure it isn't just a question of "but we want to kill 25 man bosses cause we are a 25 man guild".

However, I wouldn't really count the space nor roster size a thing that would make anything harder or easier, just makes your guild communication effort bit higher.

according to a blue post midway through ICC, 10m were harder and required more work to tune properly

they didn't wanna make them too easy so they overdid it

with the homogenization now, seems like it wouldn't be as hard now as it was, but i guess the "bring the player not the class" is still convincing them to improperly tune fight after fight

[Deleted]

according to a blue post midway through ICC, 10m were harder and required more work to tune properly

they didn't wanna make them too easy so they overdid it

with the homogenization now, seems like it wouldn't be as hard now as it was, but i guess the "bring the player not the class" is still convincing them to improperly tune fight after fight

I wonder if that blue poster had any idea about how many LK 10 HCs were killed compared to 25 mans. I honestly have done both of the ICCs several times and I always found 10 man way more easier.

[Deleted]

There's no way 10m and 25m can reach same difficulty. You can either have it harder to execute and setup dependant (which kinda demolishes the idea behind 10m raiding), or make it so that any decent setup skilled enough can down the boss - which in turn means disabling certain role stacking, and ultimately immediately making the 10m version easier.
How about that! Think we've had the same discussion when ICC was still fresh and shared lockouts were first announced and such - just think how much Valks + defile were easier to handle in 10m than on 25m. Then think Putricide's hardmode, where 10m hardmode was excluded from the green/orange raid separation of 25m; 5 blood beasts vs. 2, 3 bone spikes vs. 1, all fine and dandy, however Cataclysm 10's don't have that clear differentiation - the amount of mechanics is the same as 25, just the throughput of them is lower, and that's it.

As there must always be a Lich King, there will NEVER be 10m hardmode content that would make you say "This shit is just as hard on 10 as it's on 25!"

Also, if you look at history, and let's go further back than ICC - sarth 3d in its days was the pinnacle of difficulty - on 10 man. Before majority of the people was actually in 25man gear, 10 man was absolute hell compared to 25 man. 6 min Malygos - same story. Who bothered much with harder hm's of ulduar on 10? Indeed, pattern remains. ToC? I'm not absolutely sure, but I think there was about 10 10m strict guilds that killed Anub HC. Then come ICC; You have to realize that fights were meant to be fought with exactly 0% buff. Still, I think the amount of 10m strict guilds killing LK HC on top of 30% buff was about 10 as well.

What's different now? There's no tier higher gear from 25's to be taken in 10's and faceroll content that's a bit downtuned. True 10m inc. hardmode raiding in itself was always tougher, I just bet my balls that 99% of today's 10m raiding guilds haven't experienced it. Everyone is still under the impression of ICC hardmode times, and how easy that was back then, when in reality this isn't gunship on HC, it's Sarth 3d on steroids in every freaking fight.

[iceberg265]

10s have always been harder and each person matters more. blizz doesn't know how to tune 10m raids

and stop with the WIDDLE SPACE MAKE RAID HARDER

unless the size of the space changes, you go to a point, if bill is too close to you, bill is fucking up, bill needs to be replaced

nothing hard about it at all

Oh yea, Bane of the Fallen King was so much more difficult than Light of Dawn...and Starcaller was definitely way harder than Astral Walker...And One Light too, that was definitely way easier on 25man.

Shit, Kil'Jaeden ain't got nothing on Zul'Jin.

[Arcangel14]

10 man heroic is currently stupidly overtuned.
The top 10 man guilds in the world are only 6/13, with some fights next to impossible to kill (Magmaw, V & T).

Yeah, 10 man heroics are deff not on par with 25 man heroics. Anyone who disagree's is sadly mistaken.

Comparing 10/25 WotLK heroic is next to pointless, because 10 mans WERE easier than 25 mans. That was the point in Wrath.
Now? Well, imo, there are more fights harder on 10 man heroic than 25 man heroic

[Deleted]

Oh yea, Bane of the Fallen King was so much more difficult than Light of Dawn...and Starcaller was definitely way harder than Astral Walker...And One Light too, that was definitely way easier on 25man.

Shit, Kil'Jaeden ain't got nothing on Zul'Jin.

10 mans were tuned to require less gear, which is why 10 man heroic modes were so easy with 25 man gear.
Unless you've done the wotlk 10 man heroic modes in 10 man gear then you have no real proof that they were easier, sorry. By your logic yogg 0 is really easy because it was killed easily by heroic icc geared people. Never mind that it was tuned around people having 232 gear and the raiders had 272.

FYI, the last time a fight was tuned around having equal gear (whether accidently or on purpose) was sarth 3 drakes. Both difficulties were tuned around 25 man gear, and 10 man sarth 3d was actually HARDER than 25 man because you needed to use a retarded comp to kill it. You had to use 3 tanks, 2.5 healers (ele shaman required as the 0.5 healer), and the tank for sarth had to be either a DK tank or a voidwalker. It was also harder because if 1 person screwed up it was a wipe, there's no way you could carry on if a dps died or if a healer died, whereas in 25 man you could regularly have 3+ dps and even a healer die and still manage it.

Basically blizzard has never had a clue how to tune heroic 10 mans. This problem has been masked in the past because of 25 man guilds raiding 10 man heroic modes for gear. One would expect blizzard's QA team to start actually testing the 10 man heroic encounters instead of relying on the players to test it, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened.

[Kalmah]

One would expect blizzard's QA team to start actually testing the 10 man heroic encounters instead of relying on the players to test it, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened.

All they can do is try to make sure that the mechanics work properly. (They even fail at that... see Paragon's comment on their Sinestra kill. Also look at Atramedes.)

They don't have a team that's actually capable of killing heroic modes. I remember a quote saying that their QA team struggled with yogg-saron 10man normal.

[cFortyfive]

FYI, the last time a fight was tuned around having equal gear (whether accidently or on purpose) was sarth 3 drakes. Both difficulties were tuned around 25 man gear, and 10 man sarth 3d was actually HARDER than 25 man because you needed to use a retarded comp to kill it. You had to use 3 tanks, 2.5 healers (ele shaman required as the 0.5 healer), and the tank for sarth had to be either a DK tank or a voidwalker. It was also harder because if 1 person screwed up it was a wipe, there's no way you could carry on if a dps died or if a healer died, whereas in 25 man you could regularly have 3+ dps and even a healer die and still manage it.

Basically blizzard has never had a clue how to tune heroic 10 mans. This problem has been masked in the past because of 25 man guilds raiding 10 man heroic modes for gear. One would expect blizzard's QA team to start actually testing the 10 man heroic encounters instead of relying on the players to test it, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened.

Agree on the last point - do not really agree on the harder part but on the retarded comp part which is imho why the current tier appears so hard - It just isn't enough to have 3 healers, 2 tanks and 5 dds - and it is a lot harder to keep a good roster for a progress oriented 10 man guild.

[Arcangel14]

Agree on the last point - do not really agree on the harder part but on the retarded comp part which is imho why the current tier appears so hard - It just isn't enough to have 3 healers, 2 tanks and 5 dds - and it is a lot harder to keep a good roster for a progress oriented 10 man guild.

Yeah, thats why the tier has been cleared by 4 guilds now on 25, yet the furthest 10man is 6/13....
Either way, I forsee incoming 10 man heroic nerfs soon, not huge, but enough to make it do-able