DW Frost 4.0.6 Spec

[liquidrage]

liquid, I think you're missing my overarching point here:

1/2 butchery is 60RP gain on a 5 minute fight. Unless you never waste any RP, it's not a DPS gain. If you are perfect, never make any mistakes and never waste any RP, and don't have any interrupts, it is a gain.

However, if you have 3 interrupts in a 5 minute fight you automatically equal out the RP gain of butchery, more than 3 and you see a net dps gain, this is going to be most notable on nefarion p2, but will also be helpful on omnitron and possibly maloriak. If you go 2/2 butchery, this is a different conversation altogether, though I think you could still make the argument that on Nef it is a net dps gain (chances are you will do at least 6 interrupts unless your raid is just burning down those adds quickly).

As far as lichborne goes, I don't think there is any fight where this is necessary. On the only fight where health really matters, Chimeron, a single death strike couple with some hots from your healers should easily put you over the needed 10k HP. Otherwise, if you're having to stand around and heal yourself with lichborne, the argument should really be about how ineffective your healers are, and not the talent. If I'm wrong and there's a fight that it is absolutely necessary for, please tell me, I am 12/12 normal mode progression, doing hard modes this week, but I do think I have enough real world experience to comment on this.

In regards to respeccing in and out of chilblains, I've only advocated putting one point into it, not two. One point is more than enough for all normal mode progression, though for magmaw HM you may consider 2 if you are assigned to the parasites - I'll be able to comment on this more in the next week or so, until then it's completely my guess. Chilblains can also help with add control on maloriak, nef, and thrones, and possibly omintron, though I can't remember if those adds can be slowed or not.

As a general spec though, I do think you'll find more use out of 2/2 EW, 3/3 Vir, and 1/2 Chilblains. Interrupts are used on trash, slows never hurt (usually!), and higher disease damage is never a bad thing, especially after our HB nerf. And at the end of the day, I think we can (should) both agree that the net dps difference between what we are discussing is almost negligible.

No, you're missing the point. If you have nothing to interrupt, as is the case of over half the fights, you get ZERO use out of endless winter. Let me repeat ZERO use. When you do have to interrupt, you respec for it.

When you have no adds to control, you get ZERO use out of Chilbains. Let me repeat that. ZERO use.

Stop being lazy, you respec for things you need that aren't dps gains when you need them.

And as to lichborn, on fights where there are no adds and there is nothing to interrupt, which is 50% of the ENTIRE T11 Raid Content, the self-heal is better then ZERO which is what you get from endless winter and chilbains combined in those fights.
Furthmore, Fued in Chim is not 10K+. That's the rest of the fight. Fued is the mad scramble to heal/absorb as much as possible and you can die even if above 10K as the buff is down.

Let me repeat this since I've only said it 3 times. There are TWO skill points in Row 2 of Frost that you move around based on the encounter.

If you are too lazy/cheap to respec for an encounter, that's really not my problem. But don't go telling people Endless winter is needed. It's not. Unless you are going to interrupting. Don't be telling people Chilblains is needed. It's not. Unless you are required to kite adds. In those cases it's DUH! obvious you respec for *that* encounter.

Oh, and your breakdown of butchery is wrong. You can waste rp and still get a dps gain from it as there will be times the extra RP generated allows you to fill a gap with a FS. Stil, it's a DPS gain which is more then Chilblain or Endless Winter. Which, since you seem to have a really hard time with this concept I'll once again point out, you respec for those as needed.

[skryll]

You really do have rage problems don't you?

In regards to feud, you're only right about lichborne being useful if your healers are bad. Otherwise two or three DS will be more than enough to help you get to the top while only marginally lowering your DPS and interrupting your rotation. Lichborne will stop your dps rotation and dump your RP's to heal you up. It's a matter of preference and if your healers are actually worth their weight.

Could you name a fight that has adds that doesn't require some sort of interrupt?

Maloriak: adds must be dps'd down, chilblains is very helpful in this fight, you can gain some RP here, but you may also need to interrupt Maloriak a few times.
Omnitron: adds, but one of the bosses must be interrupted the whole time he is up, my guess is EW is a net gain for this fight unless you deal the killing blow to more than one add and are not chased by any adds
Nef: Both Chilblains and EW are nice, Chilblans in p1 (and p3 in emergencies), EW reigns in p2, allowing you to maintain your DPS rotation and interrupt
Magmaw: EW is not very useful, but 1 point for normal, possibly 2 for heroic in chilblains (and let's be honest, if you're a frost dk on this fight, chances are you'll be the add tank)
Cho'Gall: Adds throughout the fight, interrupts in the final phase
Princes: Chilblains helpful for adds, EW not so much
Halfus: depending on your pull for the fight, EW and chilblains are extremely useful
Ascendent Council: possibility to be an interrupter in p1, chilblains not so useful

So 7/12 these abilities are useful, some fights more than others, as with any utility ability. This ignores many trash pulls which require interrupts in the raids as well.

I dunno about you, but my guild doesn't want me to respec every fight (especially if I have a tank OS for some fights), so if we're talking about a marginal gain from going butchery in 3 fights, it's not worth it to me unless I'm just trying to pad the meters for an extra 50-75dps (if that).

[Reigninblood]

To liquidrage,
You're saying you respec for each of those fights for only a minimal increase in dps? Sounds pretty inefficient/waste of gold to me.

[Cistara]

i saw some posts on EJ stating that on simulators dw frost was actually performing better in unholy presence, im assuming that the increased haste for more KM procs and faster rune cooldowns for more obliterates could make up for it. havent tested it personally, but id love to hear/see some numbers if anyone has crunched/live tested.

as a second note, ive been dying to see if w/ the 12% bonus to weapon attacks that 2h is getting if it has pulled ahead of the dw build yet

I've noticed this since Day 1 of 4.0.3 Pre-Cata, I tested thoroughly for about a day. Different Reforging techniques, different gemming techniques, etc.

I came down to this conclusion.

For DW,
Unholy Presence > Frost Presence for Single Target
Frost Presence > Unholy Presence for AoE (Obviously)
Str > Hit to Cap > Exp to Cap > Mastery > Haste > Crit

Below are some logs of me DPSing under said specifications.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nrve1sg0s0g9q9m0/

Here is the spec I run.
http://wowtal.com/#k=3Y9wgAJB.aei.deathknight.

Here is my armory.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cistara/simple

[skryll]

You prefer Haste over Crit for DW? I've always heard that Crit outpaced Haste for DW, while 2H Frost preferred Haste.

[liquidrage]

To liquidrage,
You're saying you respec for each of those fights for only a minimal increase in dps? Sounds pretty inefficient/waste of gold to me.

Of course. It's gold. You get enough for a respec in 5 minutes of wow playing.

---------- Post added 2011-02-09 at 05:08 PM ----------

You really do have rage problems don't you?

In regards to feud, you're only right about lichborne being useful if your healers are bad. Otherwise two or three DS will be more than enough to help you get to the top while only marginally lowering your DPS and interrupting your rotation. Lichborne will stop your dps rotation and dump your RP's to heal you up. It's a matter of preference and if your healers are actually worth their weight.

Could you name a fight that has adds that doesn't require some sort of interrupt?

Maloriak: adds must be dps'd down, chilblains is very helpful in this fight, you can gain some RP here, but you may also need to interrupt Maloriak a few times.
Omnitron: adds, but one of the bosses must be interrupted the whole time he is up, my guess is EW is a net gain for this fight unless you deal the killing blow to more than one add and are not chased by any adds
Nef: Both Chilblains and EW are nice, Chilblans in p1 (and p3 in emergencies), EW reigns in p2, allowing you to maintain your DPS rotation and interrupt
Magmaw: EW is not very useful, but 1 point for normal, possibly 2 for heroic in chilblains (and let's be honest, if you're a frost dk on this fight, chances are you'll be the add tank)
Cho'Gall: Adds throughout the fight, interrupts in the final phase
Princes: Chilblains helpful for adds, EW not so much
Halfus: depending on your pull for the fight, EW and chilblains are extremely useful
Ascendent Council: possibility to be an interrupter in p1, chilblains not so useful

So 7/12 these abilities are useful, some fights more than others, as with any utility ability. This ignores many trash pulls which require interrupts in the raids as well.

I dunno about you, but my guild doesn't want me to respec every fight (especially if I have a tank OS for some fights), so if we're talking about a marginal gain from going butchery in 3 fights, it's not worth it to me unless I'm just trying to pad the meters for an extra 50-75dps (if that).

You're overstating the use. Halfus, Interrupts useful for one of the possible adds. Whelps don't need to be slowed as you're not kiting them, so no chilblains.
Magmaw, Chilblains may or may not be. If you're the add tank two. If you're soloing adds normal probably two. If you're just part of the DPS group the slow might go to something else, like a hunter trap. Or maybe on you. or maybe not at all. Again, situational.

Omni, EW here all day long. Chilblains for adds, eh.

Again, it goes back to using what you need. You might never be the interrupter on half those fights. That's the whole point. Anyone with common sense will take it if they need it.

[Gangrule]

Hello all I am a bit lost. I have run DW frost for a very long time now and for the very first time I really feel that Unholy has been put far in the driver's seat when it comes to DK dps. I dont have the gear or the raid exp as a lot of you but I do understand the DK class pretty well imo. I run with 2 in endless because of the various times I need to interrupt and 3 in vir and 3 in epedemic for obvious reasons. I always compete with unholy that are around my gear level. When this patch dropped I ran with a very sub par player and his gear sucked - he pulled 5 k more than me single target. This has NEVER happened to me in the past. He said it was because of the mastery buff blizzard gave unholy. And when I say sub par player his exact words when switching from a tank spec to a dps spec were " what should I do go frost or unholy" I said well what are you gemmed, forged for - he said I dont know . Then he roflstomped me on the meters. I survived a lot longer but his dps was retarded. Any help with this would be great.

[skryll]

Of course. It's gold. You get enough for a respec in 5 minutes of wow playing.

---------- Post added 2011-02-09 at 05:08 PM ----------



You're overstating the use. Halfus, Interrupts useful for one of the possible adds. Whelps don't need to be slowed as you're not kiting them, so no chilblains.
Magmaw, Chilblains may or may not be. If you're the add tank two. If you're soloing adds normal probably two. If you're just part of the DPS group the slow might go to something else, like a hunter trap. Or maybe on you. or maybe not at all. Again, situational.

Omni, EW here all day long. Chilblains for adds, eh.

Again, it goes back to using what you need. You might never be the interrupter on half those fights. That's the whole point. Anyone with common sense will take it if they need it.

No doubt, my point was, since IBT is overshadowed by virulence now, there isn't much of a reason not to get 1 pt of chilblains, and switch from pale horse to EW instead of putting them into butchery. Sure, if you don't mind min/maxing your spec for each fight, there are better specs, but as a general spec, I'd advocate EW+1/2 chilblains all the way.

I don't completely comprehend the arguments for using licheborne, but I don't discount them either.

[Cymorìl]

Even if you have to interrupt only in few fights it's silly, imo, speccing on a pale horse instead of endless winter, only to fly a bit faster...
Free interrupts are a dps gain and sometimes are the difference between a wipe and a boss' kill.

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 11:44 AM ----------

Ok I know test dummies thread are not allowed, and I know that tests are not very accurate but I made alot of them (10 min each) the whole morning swapping HB glyph and IT one... Of course I'm virulence specced and I saw at about a 300-500 dps gain using HB on rime procs and refreshing FF with IT.