Paladin healing too taxing for Ret.

[Zenaur]

In Arena you cannot really afford to heal others that much that selfless healer would be really worth to spec for. It CAN help a great deal but it is way too expensive. Before patch I had specced for it cuz you sometimes just swam in Holy Power. Those times, however, are over. As of now it is quite a useless talent and only double ret in 2on2 viable.. Maybe. And where would you take those 2 points away anyway? The talents needs some overhaul and love, on that I agree completely.

Did i read this correctly?
selfless healer not worth specing for it?
You know how many times that it + Zeal has saved games when a healer is cced to hell and back?
Sure you have to give up a lot of burst/dmg for it but playing ret to its full potential practically requires you to off heal with WoG. High end arena is not all about damage. if all that mattered was dmg ret would be a completely horrible class to bring to the match.

SH is borderline op with WoG healing as it currently is, not that i mind being op... im just saying.

[Prentice]

I have to agree with the two posters above me. Selfless Healer + Word of Glory is pretty much game-breaking still. Getting the chain of two or three huge WoG's can turn a grim situation into one that favors my team. I am not a big fan of my current pvp ret spec, but any spec that I switch to must have 2/2 Selfless Healer. It really is that huge.

[Dieselpower]

Selfless Healer is for emergency situations in PVE and PVP. It is not meant to be included in a rotation, and most Ret won't spec it. (I'm considering it for 25mans.)

For PVE, is the boss about 10 seconds away from his big nasty swing or AOE? Make a macro that casts a WoG on the tank and start saving your Holy Power.

For PVE, oh look, my healer is dying!

[marinos]

Selfless Healer is for emergency situations in PVE and PVP. It is not meant to be included in a rotation, and most Ret won't spec it. (I'm considering it for 25mans.)

For PVE, is the boss about 10 seconds away from his big nasty swing or AOE? Make a macro that casts a WoG on the tank and start saving your Holy Power.

For PVE, oh look, my healer is dying!

Nonetheless its a lame talent for pve,and a ret shouldnt be specced into it.Leaving dps talents in order to get healing ones as ret is stupid.If healing is such a problem bring more healers and boot the ret or change your healers then.

[zcks]

The problem is not that it's to taxing for ret to off heal its that its to taxing for ret to self heal & that our ability to DPS, self heal & emergency off heal are all tied to the same proc mechanic.


Because they are all tied to the same mechanic they cannot buff one without overbuffing another, this means we are nearly impossible to balance correctly.

Ideally they would have done more testing back during beta & came up with a better set of combat mechanics for ret spec however what they did do was spend 3 weeks on spec design (if that) then implement the spec & ignore it till release. After that all they really did for 4.0.6 was make the holy power generation slower (its still just as reliant on RNG), this in turn screwed up ret survivability. To compensate for that survivability lost they reintroduced sacred shield in a new form, granted it works (kinda) it feels like another oh shit ability in a spec/class defined around them & the fact its passive instead of an active on demand ability means it takes no skill to use not even a button press.

Hopefully the next time they completely overhaul the spec they put more thought into & can agree on what they actually want it to be, till then its either A: going to be boring as hell & feel like an idiot created it or B: get nerfed down repeatedly to its crap again.

[Deleted]

Selfless Healer is currently borderline overpowered in arena. Throwing out 60k Word of Glorys on a teammate with AW up is a bit over the top, and with zealotry and Eternal Glory procs where you get to chain them to a massive extent, it starts getting ridiculous.

I would not be surprised if this talent gets nerfed within the next month or so.

Just attack the retri and watch how Selfles healer is overpowered lol. It is so situational and if you want to burn down his mate in arena then it is not OP but you are bit brainless.

[Deleted]

Who cares about your DPS. If WoG meant the flag carrier didn't die in WSG, or that your group stayed up in a heroic, then it's better than a little extra DPS. If you just want to DPS, ignore SH and just hit things. It's just another useful utility. Why should we be able to heal and DPS in equal measure with no penalty?

[Quantum continuance]

+1

Each time a DPS respecs tank/healer and queues for a heroic, 3 people somewhere in the world are happy.

but they dont always stay happy for long, someone who just chooses to go healer or tank out of the blue with no previous practice has a much higher potential to make a 40 minute run a 2 hour run (past experience sigh)

[davep]

Ret is for DPSing and that's it, if you are using WoG that's because you want to and not because you need to and if you need to then your healers are bad.

[Zoma]

No Comment on PvP ret, but in PvE, your main consideration should be your dps. You are not expected to have strong heals. If the healer or tank is low, throw on a Lay on Hands. If the healer is dead and the tank is getting low, hit Zeal. CS > WoG > Filler. Filler can be FoL if tank needs more heals, Judgment for mana, or regular dps rotation if enemy is low health.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I think it's quite clear someone watches Code Geass for the pretty flashing images rather than the plot.



Really?

this might be sarcasm but i agree with the statment that ret holy power generation is bad atm and for pvp it will hardly go down much. Since most of the posts are about retri im going to comment this with pvp in mind.
Ret healing in pvp is very nice but it makes throwing wet noodles at the opponent a more viable way of dealing damage to them. Sure Word of glory can critheal 50k and even more on others than yourself but at the cost you deal almost no damage. We all know ret is the best burst class in pvp atm and maybe one of the top contenders in terms of survival but when it comes to being snared by frostmages we're in the same pool as warriors and Dks, except we dont got a charget to close gaps with.

Think it's only a matter of time before then rework the haste scaling with CS and make the talent into a flat cooldown redction, reason you say? Well retpaldins have already mastery as our main scaling secondary stat alongside with crit. having 3 secondary stats which we are highly dependant on is very much a pain in the ass. Making the talent instead reduce the cooldown on Crusader Strike with a flat 0.5/1.0 second (2slot) talent would free up our random procs with something reliable in our rotation aswell as making sure retpaldins wont go bersherk in the future with 3k haste and having a rotation going Cs>filler>cs>filler>cs>TV>cs... like it was in patch 4.0.1 pre cata.

In terms of reducing the paladin burst which everyone is complaining about now, pvp atleast, blizzard devs could make it so that templars verdict hit less on player targets. Most of the complaints about retpaladin burst in pvp nowdays are the instant damage we do. just reducing the damage templars verdict do against players only while reducing the cooldown on crusader strike would increase the stable dps aswell as making ret less proc dependant and less bursty against players. Retri at high end pvp is still far from eachother and it seems ret is very dominant in the lower ratings. As ive said to several of my guildies complainging about ret burst, Disarm them and they wont be a problem, silences can also be used at them while you see them bursting. After retri burst there's not much damage again for 2minutes or so, and even then you can do the same thing.. Retri is really dangerous when they can do 2-3 templars verdict on you while you're stunned or your healer is being in a CC chain.

---------- Post added 2011-02-24 at 03:58 AM ----------

Ret is for DPSing and that's it, if you are using WoG that's because you want to and not because you need to and if you need to then your healers are bad.

it's not that ret is bad DPS, retri is terrible dps if we're forced to use our holy power to heal. it's like asking a rogue to use all his combat points every time they're at 3 combat points to do a recuperate or something like that. Holy Power is ~35%-40% retri damage asking us to give up that is what makes sucks.

[Energy]

I do not know a whole lot about Paladins. I do, however, know that DPS are DPS. Not healers.

Death Knights have some healing cooldowns, Warriors can use Victory Rush now and then, and most other DPS classes have some kind of self-heal or defensive cooldown. None of them, however, are very efficient at healing neither themselves nor others. Why? Because they chose a spec which increases your ability to deal damage. Not healing.

try to play warrior, and you'll see, that this non-healer class can outplay ret paladin multiple times. Yes, warrior's biggest heals have cd, but none of them makes you choose dps or heal. you just spend one gcd. well, bloodthirst is in rotation.

In this world of mass dispell and shattering throw i think it's too late to balance paladins around Divine Shield.

---------- Post added 2011-02-24 at 08:04 AM ----------

but they dont always stay happy for long, someone who just chooses to go healer or tank out of the blue with no previous practice has a much higher potential to make a 40 minute run a 2 hour run (past experience sigh)

or some DPS is specced healers. i've played holy from beginning, and one year ago i've decided to spec into ret, because i've tired

[Ssith]

late night lurking of the paladin forums yields yet another awesome thread.

"OMG! my DPS class can't heal very well!!11"

thank you, brightened my day =)

[Powell]

First of all, from a days worth of playing you have little to no experience with it, so your point isn't really a valid concern in my eyes, no offense.
In addition, using a healing ability as a DPS should be taxing towards your damage. If a hybrid could heal someone and still do more then reasonable dmg, then why should anyone ever pick another class?

Selfless Healer talent is already powerful as it is, i can easy critheal my arena partner for about 40-60k depending on buffs and CDs.
Aswell as providing more then reasonable healing when you get Eternal Glory and DP procs, i can heal my buddy full in 3 gcds.
I assume that is the reason patch 4.1 provides a 20sec CD on it for anyone other then Holy Paladins.

Unfortunatly Hybrid classes no longer exist in WoW - if a paladin does to little dmg in a raid, because he makes up for it with shite healing and defensive capabilities, incredibly amounts of complain posts will emerge from the forums - that is how the WoW community acts, and its sad.

For example, pre 4.0.6, Hunters provided incredible amounts of control, yet lacked certain "Umph" to their damage, wich for good hunters balanced itself out in PvP, because they knew how to combine their control with their damage.
For crappy hunters however that don't know jack about their class and have no clue about their capabilities, they go complain on the forums and blizzard changes things up.
wich in this case is exactly what is happening.

[zcks]

Short of another complete overhaul, this time with designers who actually agree on what they want the spec to be & who are unhindered by their bosses personal biases towards the spec ret will never see a good fluid combat system or real balance.

As I have said many times since beta, the main problem ret has is that is uses the same mechanics & procs to determine its, dps, self survivability & ability to emergency heal. Combine this with the spec not having any sort of presence or stance system to separate its roles further & what you end up with is something that cannot be balanced because any increase to one thing ends up overbuffing the others.

[Simca]

Locking this - use one of the newer topics created about the WoG cooldown to discuss this.