Addon for showing if ur pre-potting or not!?

[Deleted]

I'm well aware of the mechanics of TotT. The point is, casting it out of combat does nothing to help you. Casting right before you swing ensures you don't waste a TotT cast in the event the tank stops the pull or takes longer than you thought he would to pull. Since tricks is on a 30 second cooldown, you can hit it multiple times in a fight which should be done as much as possible considering the low energy use of it.

Play a rogue, then you can be a smartass.

First of all, the question was about the prepotting. And yes prepotting does a huge difference on boss fights.
2. It's you, who is trying to be a smartass. Tricks are cast before pull (it doesn't mean you cast it 5 minutes b4 tank pulls). So the tank gets 15% boost and builds aggro faster.
3. Rogue should be prepotting haste.
4. Sotp trolling.

[madyrn]

come back when your tanks learn to use pulltimers when they know everyone is ready to go.
casting it when you´re on the boss is worse than doing it just before the pull.
i don´t need to raid on a rogue to know the mechanics, alts work fine.

and if you know the mechanics, why would you say the 6 seconds start as soon as it´s cast... when they actually start when you attack.

When did I say it started as soon as it was cast? I swear, you freaking morons putting words into people posts when the post is right there in black and white.

What kind of idiot pops tricks BEFORE the pull? Until the tank actually engages the boss there is no reason to pop it or any pot like say a haste. If we're talking about flasks well, they last an hour so there's no reason to rush the pull and risk a wipe. If your dps can't afford a few hundred gold for a flask or two then maybe they don't need to be raiding.

That was my original post. Nothing in there about the timer starting at cast. The point of waiting is to avoid losing the TotT cast altogether. It happens more than you'd think even with pull timers.

casting it when you´re on the boss is worse than doing it just before the pull.

Really? How is that? Because, after raiding for 3+ years on my rogue I've never had an issue holding off on the cast until the tank engages the boss.

i don´t need to raid on a rogue to know the mechanics, alts work fine.

Perhaps you should. Simply reading a tool tip doesn't make you pro. Does that mean I can read the tool tips of all the resto druid abilities and then try to school people on how to use them?

---------- Post added 2011-03-07 at 07:57 AM ----------

First of all, the question was about the prepotting. And yes prepotting does a huge difference on boss fights.
2. It's you, who is trying to be a smartass. Tricks are cast before pull (it doesn't mean you cast it 5 minutes b4 tank pulls). So the tank gets 15% boost and builds aggro faster.
3. Rogue should be prepotting haste.
4. Sotp trolling.

First, I addressed the original post.
Second, no, I'm not being a smartass. I made a point and have since been defending it.
Third, never said people shouldn't prepot anything.
Fourth, I'm not trolling. I'm sticking with the original discussion as well as defending my points.

[Deleted]

Shouldnt you use a DPS Pot too, if DPS is an issue? That little bit of armor does virtually nothing on start of the pull, especially if your healers are fine. But a DPS-Pot on the Tank can counter for missing Vengence, allowing the DPS to start their full rotations earlier and benefit from their pots more.

Dont get me wrong, this is not a flame, but a suggestion to think about.
Also you should "get good at that logging stuff". It allows you much much more improvement then simply telling people to pot earlier. If you want to tell people how to improve its your job to know exactly why all over the fight for each class. Prepotting is usually the last layer of improvement. But if you hit dps boundrys (enrage timer, adds piling up) you should analyze your threat at first. As you set the limit for thread. If you have one or two people who really pull a lot of dps (people without good thread dumps), but most dont, improve at some of the DPS, but if ALL of them doing bad DPS, its probably the Threat. Yes this is possible, even in Cata.

[Abandon]

I just have MSBT, and when I see the Warrior Tank use Battle Shout before the pull that's my queue to Pot.

[madyrn]

MADYRN

I get the feeling you just like arguing with ppl.

Can you not see if you have several dps in your raid who just aren't performing having them chuck an extra pot down there neck will increase dps but not as much as having them dps make sure they have correct gear/gems/enchants/rotations and be encounter aware?

Not saying any of that at all. Never did. I'm saying you're wrong to state that pots won't help. They will help. And the OP stated clearly it's only some fights some of the time which says more to the effect that pots would make a difference for his raid's performance. Had it been a gear/gem/enchant/rotation issue then his dps issues would be consistent instead of only some bosses, some of the time. If it's an issue of fight mechanics then, since he said he's a tank, he needs to be sure all his people are schooled on the fight before the pull.

[Stevoman]

I'd like to know where this mysterious tank who can't hold aggro you guys all play with hides. Because as long as I get a MD or Tricks, I have never once in this entire expansion lost a boss in the first six seconds of the fight. The only time I ever lose threat is on Cho'gall adds, and it's almost always because our hunters forgot to MD me.

[Deleted]

Not saying any of that at all. Never did. I'm saying you're wrong to state that pots won't help. They will help. And the OP stated clearly it's only some fights some of the time which says more to the effect that pots would make a difference for his raid's performance. Had it been a gear/gem/enchant/rotation issue then his dps issues would be consistent instead of only some bosses, some of the time. If it's an issue of fight mechanics then, since he said he's a tank, he needs to be sure all his people are schooled on the fight before the pull.

Yes he did say sometimes in some fights.

Since im kinda sick of telling em to push their dps to max when we lack dps sometimes on some fights!

He also says he is "kinda sick of telling em" which implies to me he does it alot.......maybe i read to far into it.

Anyway OP got his addon, i still think he needs to look at his dps.

[madyrn]

Yes he did say sometimes in some fights.



He also says he is "kinda sick of telling em" which implies to me he does it alot.......maybe i read to far into it.

Anyway OP got his addon, i still think he needs to look at his dps.

I agree, it's more a matter of getting his people on page than anything.

[Deleted]

Seriously, did none of you guys here wipe sub-1% on the pre-nerf Elementium Monstrosity? We had an entire night of sub-1mil wipes that would have been prevented by people using consumables (bear in mind flasks were 500g+/each and potions 100g+/each this early in the expansion, and most people were wiped out from spending 30kg+ on BOEs).

If you want to bring individual encounter mechanics into play, then I'm going to have to agree with you here. All players on phase 3 should be popping DPS CDs and pots if you are cutting Elementium Monstrosity fine. I'm going to assume that we agree they should have flasks popped already, since that was never in question.

What was in question specifically was whether it is worthwhile to go to the trouble of ensuring all your raiders are pre-potting. On this encounter, it is a particular waste of time, since the nature of pre-potting means you are adding DPS to phase 1, when timing rather than time is of the essence. In fact, it's not such a stretch to see it resulting in a DPS loss for phase 3 - all you need is one DPS pushing his pot consumption to the last second to ensure getting the most value out of it, and he ends up losing the ability to use it when its actually needed.

Generally speaking, I believe this to be a moot point, since the DPS increase in the vast majority of cases could be vastly overshadowed by the DPS increase of simply playing better - more class knowledge, more encounter knowledge, more focus - to the point where no encounter would require, assuming reasonable gear, the use of a second potion. "Fixing" this aspect of your raid is almost always a case of getting your priorities wrong.

[Mad_Murdock]

Hard to prove? The numbers I posted were from testing done with different mage specs using two separate pots to measure the difference in DPS. It's not a guess, it's just hard numbers. 400 DPS extra over 15 seconds equals 6000 damage. That's significant even if only a few dps get it and especially if a full raid of dps are pulling it down.

I think you missed my point at little. I'm not arguing does the pots increase DPS, that's a given. I also understand that the more DPS you do, the less time you spend onthe boss, less likely the healers will go OOM, less likely the Tanks will get some wierd one shot affect.

What I am saying is hard to prove is, can you prove that Pre-potting alone is what avoided the wipe ? Or that using pots at all made the difference ? For example, it let's say it only takes a combined 200K DPS to down Magmaw. If without pots your group is doing 210K, but still wiping. Is potting the problem ? Would you also say that half the DPS didn't use a flask and that was the problem ? If you're already doing more than what is required, yet wiping, that would imply something else is wrong. And agan, if it's a case of you down to the last 1% and you can't get past an enrage timer than I'd agree Potting\pre-potting may be the fix

I have no doubt there are cases where Prepotting may have been the lone reason a group downed a boss. I'm just saying how do you prove that was the single thing ? Way back when we were doing Lich King, we wiped about 15 times with the best attempt getting him down to about 15-17%. We changed out 1 person and downed him the next attempt. Did changing out that 1 person make the difference or was it just random chance ?

For the record, I'm all for Pre-potting and potting. I'm all for Fish feast and flasks too.

I'd like to know where this mysterious tank who can't hold aggro you guys all play with hides. Because as long as I get a MD or Tricks, I have never once in this entire expansion lost a boss in the first six seconds of the fight. The only time I ever lose threat is on Cho'gall adds, and it's almost always because our hunters forgot to MD me.

I don't believe our tanks are bad or that bad. All I know is, the nights we have 2 holy Paladins is great for me and the other Fury Warrior. Every fight we go balls out, we're calling for salvs within the first 25 sec. If we don't get the salvs, one of us will be the tank in 27 secs. On the nights we don't have our paladins, we don't go balls out. We also don't aways have Hunters available, which really sucks

I believe it was the tank from Premonition that commented on the Massive burst threat that their Fury warrior does. So if it's a L2P issue for the tanks, then it's a problem at the top as well

[madyrn]

I think you missed my point at little. I'm not arguing does the pots increase DPS, that's a given. I also understand that the more DPS you do, the less time you spend onthe boss, less likely the healers will go OOM, less likely the Tanks will get some wierd one shot affect.

What I am saying is hard to prove is, can you prove that Pre-potting alone is what avoided the wipe ? Or that using pots at all made the difference ? For example, it let's say it only takes a combined 200K DPS to down Magmaw. If without pots your group is doing 210K, but still wiping. Is potting the problem ? Would you also say that half the DPS didn't use a flask and that was the problem ? If you're already doing more than what is required, yet wiping, that would imply something else is wrong. And agan, if it's a case of you down to the last 1% and you can't get past an enrage timer than I'd agree Potting\pre-potting may be the fix

I have no doubt there are cases where Prepotting may have been the lone reason a group downed a boss. I'm just saying how do you prove that was the single thing ? Way back when we were doing Lich King, we wiped about 15 times with the best attempt getting him down to about 15-17%. We changed out 1 person and downed him the next attempt. Did changing out that 1 person make the difference or was it just random chance ?

For the record, I'm all for Pre-potting and potting. I'm all for Fish feast and flasks too.

I see your point and I get that maybe initially I read it wrong. There is probably no way to prove beyond a doubt that pre-potting would make a difference on every fight unless you ran a thousand runs without it then ran another thousand with it. There's no doubt that, based on the OP's original post, this is just an occassional thing in his raids though and it would seem, by his words, that even that little bit of help would make a difference.

I too have seen the magic of the one or two player switch leading to success, and the subsequent whining of the swapped player(s). Some people just seem to get certain fights and some don't. I focus on making sure my people know their class and how to maximize it with each fight before zoning in. This seems to lead to less frustration in the long run and more fun in general.

[Evilution]

When did I say it started as soon as it was cast? I swear, you freaking morons putting words into people posts when the post is right there in black and white.



That was my original post. Nothing in there about the timer starting at cast. The point of waiting is to avoid losing the TotT cast altogether. It happens more than you'd think even with pull timers.

Here´s your post you "forgot" you made (?)

Again, F'ing WHY BEFORE THE PULL?

You can cast tricks at any point during the fight. I wait until I'm set up behind the boss and pop it right before my first hit. THAT gives you max up time, not popping it before and then losing those seconds of run in time. It's not rocket science, it's wow.

You put bad words in your own mouth, don´t go blaming other people for your backfired arguments. If your tanks keep using pulltimers that often and then
don´t pull, i doubt there is much need for maxing tot/misdirects anyway, if they do cancel a pull, they should be clever enough to wait until shorter
cooldowns that people pop during the pulltimer has reset, and pot-timers if doublepotting.


Aaand... back on topic, for any useful info on the OP see my first comment.

RaidSlackCheck works fine aswell, and i can recommend the other mod that the author of RSC´s is involved in; PhoenixStyle

[Heringer91]

What is pre-potting? Does this help?

Im a healer, and i use mana pots so im assuming this is out the window for me, but for my raids dps? and tanks?

[Deleted]

HI wonder, is there ANY addon that shows if u pre-potting in a fight, and during a fight? Like, i wanna have a track if all of the dpsers are pre-potting and potting during the fight. Since im kinda sick of telling em to push their dps to max when we lack dps sometimes on some fights!

http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/

Enter your worldoflogs log into comparebot and check the Potions summary to see at a glance who potted how often.

[Chob]

No addons, but I can advise this website. It's called comparebot, and it takes WoL reports and reports you certain nice-to-know facts about your failures and pot usage in your raid.

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/4d74f...34000038#buffs

That is a link to our latest maloriak heroic kill for example, and it lets you track how many potions people have used, though it might not register pre-pots, I'm not sure about that.

[madyrn]

Here´s your post you "forgot" you made (?)



You put bad words in your own mouth, don´t go blaming other people for your backfired arguments. If your tanks keep using pulltimers that often and then
don´t pull, i doubt there is much need for maxing tot/misdirects anyway, if they do cancel a pull, they should be clever enough to wait until shorter
cooldowns that people pop during the pulltimer has reset, and pot-timers if doublepotting.


Aaand... back on topic, for any useful info on the OP see my first comment.

Perhaps I could have worded it better so you could comprehend but the point remains the same. There is no benefit to casting tricks pre-pull. There can be negatives however and that was what I was trying to address. The tank gets no benefit from a TotT cast until the rogue has hit the boss so, point was, don't risk losing the cast to any number of sudden issues, just wait until the tank has engaged the boss, get set, cast and attack.

[pawsz]

Prepotting does make a difference if the whole group knows the boss, but if you are still learning the boss it isnt really needed.
If you need dps, use moar pots, if you need tactic, pots wont help you.

[Deleted]

Dude, the last line you quoted of his made it clear. Just like EVERY OTHER RAID LEADER this guy wants max DPS. However, he's only noticing issues on SOME fights some of the time, see that same last line you quoted. And yes, one pot can make a massive difference. Do you even raid? Potion of Speed grants 500 haste for 15 seconds. Think it doesn't matter still? Well, here are some numbers for mage specs:

0/53/18 Frostfire spec: Potion of Speed = 406 DPS; Potion of Wild Magic = 407.54 DPS
57/3/11 Arcane spec: Potion of Speed = 431 DPS; Potion of Wild Magic = 333.67 DPS
53/18/0 Arcane w/ Improved Scorch spec: Potion of Speed = 411.5 DPS, Potion of Wild Magic = 313.62 DPS
18/53/0 Fireball spec: Potion of Speed = 520 DPS, Potion of Wild Magic = 446 DPS

Pulled those from wowhead. So yeah, one pot can make a huge difference in DPS especially if the group is sub-par to begin with.

just for the sake of the discussion: those are WotLK-speccs, pots and numbers. be aware that today's pots result in more dps than listed above.
and yes, pre-pottinh, especially on progress encounters make a big difference.

What is pre-potting? Does this help?

Im a healer, and i use mana pots so im assuming this is out the window for me, but for my raids dps? and tanks?

Pre-Potting means: using a potion that increases your primary stat (int, strength, agility) for a short period of time right before the combat starts, so you don't have the one-potion-per-fight limit and can use the next potion during bloodlust/trinkets etc.

[coldbear]

Good tanks pre-pot.
1 dps pre-potting won't make much difference.

But 17 dps doing it will make a difference. If the tank does too and he knows how to front-load his threat then they'll be able to almost unload.

[Deleted]

Again, F'ing WHY BEFORE THE PULL?

You can cast tricks at any point during the fight. I wait until I'm set up behind the boss and pop it right before my first hit. THAT gives you max up time, not popping it before and then losing those seconds of run in time. It's not rocket science, it's wow.

Kinda had to laugh here. The tricks of the trade buff lasts 20 seconds before it expires, and 6 seconds after your first damage hit. You trick the tank before the pull, he'l pull, and you can sprint/run in behind the boss and unleash. By only tricking the tank when he has the boss positioned and steady, YOU lose out on some seconds of dps. Seems like someone needs a lesson in roguecraft.

If the tank has to stop a pull because X Y Z happened, just let the buff timer tick off, recast it and repeat. Most tanks will countdown before they pull to allow for pre-potting and stuff, your case of negativity simply never applies at any given time.

OT: Yes, pre-potting can be the difference between a wipe and a kill. It's not as big of a deal as being correctly gemmed/enchanted, playing correctly and generally not sucking, but once you've mastered all of the above, the only thing you can do to push out more numbers is pre-pot. Most people will blow all their CD's on the pull anyways, so stacking them with that extra potion will give you an even bigger advantage. If you've ever missed a kill at a very small percentage on a strict dps race, you'l understand.