Sunder Armor Debuff

[Maximus4004]

Quick question to all the pro tanks out there how many difference classes/combination's can apply the sunder armor debuff and what are they?

[Bender]

From the top of my head:
Warrior
Hunter(raptor)
Druid(FF)
Rogue(expose armor)

Any more?

[Omnicient]

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/

Under "Armor" it says:

Corrosive Shot
Tear Armor
Expose Armor
Faerie Fire
Sunder Armor

To answer your question, Hunters, Rogues, Druids, and Warriors.

[Deleted]

I think it's worth remembering though that prot warriors are the best at applying and maintaining the sunder armor stacks, because it's close to automatic with out rotation. Any time I've talked about it with a DPS, they make sure to remind me that applying an armor debuff is a DPS loss.

[Intimidation]

warrior, nothing else does what sunder does. Farie Fire (druid) and expose armor (rogue) do apply similar debuffs but nothing as effective or long-term as sunder. Tbh as a fury warrior I app it on every boss while doing heroics (with no prot warrior in group) and if by chance we run one of our 10m's w/o a warrior tank during boss fights in raid as well. It's invaluable and we are currently the only class that can keep such a debuff up 100% of the encounter

Edit: (before i get flamed) Yes there are similar debuffs to Sunder but nothing that will give 12% armor ignore on a target raid wide from second 5 (gotta apply the stacks) of an encounter.

[Bender]

I think it's worth remembering though that prot warriors are the best at applying and maintaining the sunder armor stacks, because it's close to automatic with out rotation. Any time I've talked about it with a DPS, they make sure to remind me that applying an armor debuff is a DPS loss.

Indeed, although it's usually (read: almost always) a bump to overall raid dps (albeit a personal dps loss) for the other classes to keep up the buff in the absence of a prot warrior.

[Azz]

Feral Druids can apply it faster. Even before melee get is in Range, all 3 stacks in one FF, and it's easy to keep up. A Good Feral DPS will have more than enough spare GCDs to keep it up, and Bears can also keep it up without issue.

Edit: (before i get flamed) Yes there are similar debuffs to Sunder but nothing that will give 12% armor ignore on a target raid wide from second 5 (gotta apply the stacks) of an encounter.

Feral Faerie Fire does not need to apply stacks. 3 Stacks instantly upon application.
You can thank the talent: Feral Aggression





With the 5 minute Duration, Feral Druids can actually keep the Debuff up on multiple targets without too much issue.

[Puri]

Edit: (before i get flamed) Yes there are similar debuffs to Sunder but nothing that will give 12% armor ignore on a target raid wide from second 5 (gotta apply the stacks) of an encounter.

Actually every feral applies 3 stacks of faerie fire instant, for 5 minutes with 6s cd.

[Steakums]

Fury/Arms shouldn't have issues with applying sunder

Apply one stack of sunder, CS (now 2 stack of sunder) dps rotation, CS (now 3 stack of sunder) given you use the Glyph which why shouldn't you, and CS just keeps refreshing it. We run with 2 Pally tanks, and I'm Sunderbot and it doesn't effect me in the slightest.

[Afrosaurus]

Ferals are better than Prot Warriors for this sort of thing.
It's part of a Feral Tank's rotation, and all 3 get put up at once.
As for feral dps, any GOOD feral dps will hit FF in their spare GCDs to try and trigger a Clearcasting proc.

[Hakto]

warrior, nothing else does what sunder does. Farie Fire (druid) and expose armor (rogue) do apply similar debuffs but nothing as effective or long-term as sunder. Tbh as a fury warrior I app it on every boss while doing heroics (with no prot warrior in group) and if by chance we run one of our 10m's w/o a warrior tank during boss fights in raid as well. It's invaluable and we are currently the only class that can keep such a debuff up 100% of the encounter

Edit: (before i get flamed) Yes there are similar debuffs to Sunder but nothing that will give 12% armor ignore on a target raid wide from second 5 (gotta apply the stacks) of an encounter.

Sorry you are wrong.

Feral faerie fire applies 3 stacks of FF that each reduce armour by 4% and lasts 5 minutes.

The feral druid can apply it immediately meaning the 12% armour reduction applies from the very first second and it stays there for 5 minutes.

Nothing comes close to that in terms of pure effectiveness.

[Coreva]

also any dps warrior that tells you its a dps loss is just plain retarded for the following reason. If heroic throw and collosus smash is glyphed, all you have to do it use heroic throw while running in and do your dps rotation as norm, no fuss as the heroic throw will apply the first sunder for you, costs no rage and does a nice little chunk of damage.

[Swarschild]

No, CS glyph only refreshes the time on it.. it does not add a second stack to the boss.

Actually, for a while it's been bugged and causes CS to also apply a stack (unless that's been fixed in the past few days since I've tested it, and I haven't seen anything in the patch notes/hotfixes about it).

[mightyquinn]

yea i just read something about that.. id still say tho waiting every 20 secs for CS to come off cooldown to apply the next sunder would be an overall dps lost it would take 40 secs after the first sunder to get to 3 stacks. Stackin 3 right away and then using CS to refresh it would be better.

[Lazoric]

I believe it's intended that cs adds a stack to sunder. There is another abbility that did or does this on another class but I forget which.

[Swarschild]

yea i just read something about that.. id still say tho waiting every 20 secs for CS to come off cooldown to apply the next sunder would be an overall dps lost it would take 40 secs after the first sunder to get to 3 stacks. Stackin 3 right away and then using CS to refresh it would be better.

Yeah, I disagree with the idea that we should wait until the second CS, but 3 sunders right at the start is a bad idea. You can simply, in the best-case scenario, Heroic Throw > Charge/Intercept > Sunder > (Rend if Arms) > CS > carry on as normal.

Besides, as others have said, Feral Druids are far better at applying the debuff quickly, and theirs lasts much longer.

[Nume]

For arms CS is up often enough (due to sudden death) that the 2nd/3rd stacks get applied fast enough I dont worry about it. But yeah you certainly can stack 3 up quick at the start instead. For fury, if you open with all your burst you'll probably pull threat anyways, so just sundering 3 times quick before bursting (or at least 2 + CS) can be beneficial in that way.

[Strigoii]

This has probably been answered elsewhere previously, but it seems like a relevant thread to pose the question.

Does the 12% armour debuff (whether it be FF or Sunder) stack with CS in 4.1? So we would be reducing the target's armour by 82%, rather than just 70%, and only be seeing an 18% decrease (which isn't actually a huge amount).

Is that right? Or way off the money? That's obviously very basic napkin math, so if there is anything more complicated behind it I'm all ears.

[Matchu]

I imagine they'll work in tandem (CS & Sunder)

[Intimidation]

Aye FF is def an equivalent, however it's a debuff that falls off after 5 min. If said person (feral) dies does it stay on for the duration?? I don't believe it does as I don't usually run w/ a feral in raid, however if a warrior dies the sunder stack stays there... of which any other warrior can refresh and keep said stack up at will. Also it's inherently attached to Devastate (an offensive move which is spammed for threat and doesn't have to be "worked into a rotation", especially as complex as a feral druid's). Having made the correlation between sunder's viability amongst warriors (not just 1 person) take a "for instance"::

Raid Comp:

Prot Warrior Bear Druid
Fury Warrior Enhance Shammy
Hunter, Mage, Boomkin
Tree, Pally, Priest

Prot warrior dies - Sunder automatically stays on boss due to CS and/or Devastates app'd during pull by Fury.
Bear druid dies - FF falls off automatically and now the warriors need to re-app sunder.

TL\DR - Sunder is slightly better than FF and thus an invaluable asset to any raid whether it was app'd by a dps warrior or prot warrior.