How to maintain a tight yet strong roster as a 10 man raiding guild?

[Deleted]

First of all I want to say that I am not really sure if this is the right section to post this in, if it is - Sorry, my bad.

Hello I am Needle, Semi GM of a small guild called Constipation (a 10 man HC guild).
First a few pointers :
We have 3 officers/GM and we decide what to do in terms of loot, what bosses to progress on, peoples raid-capability etc.
We consist of alot of irl friends, but we have 4/13 HC, which is not great, but decent. Atm our roster consist of 9 irl friends, 3 none irl.
We raid 2 times a week, aprox 3 hours 30 min every raid.

We seem to run into the same problem, over and over - Peoples attendance.
On thursday, for instance (Which is the progress day) we had 12 people showing up. Obviously We switched out on a few bosses, to min max/who needed loot. Went smooth, our people does not cry if they have to sit out for a few bosses.
On sunday, however we had 8. (Note this is a extreme case. We recently bumped our roster up from 11->12, and we are normally atleast 9/11).
Another common problem is the class compositions. We have 3 who can tank, (And have a decent geared alt for dpsing), 5 healers who can heal (although one is resto as offspec (normally boom), and boom=win in 10 man. A total of 3 healers can go dps).
We normally required 75% attendance, but this seem to cause a problem. People are nearly always showing up, but sometimes Irl stuff interfears, which is quite okay. We are kinda casual after all

But how do we deal with 2/5 healers + 1 tank + 1 dps not being able to come, and wanting our boom for Magmaw hc (Great for splash aoe, slows, tab dotting boss/big adds etc.).
Recruit/Replace people? Have a bigger roster, contra staying small and great people? Changing that raid day that week? Other good stuff?
And how do I motivate my people to look up on videos, etc?. I even do a specific strategy guide pr. progress boss, on our webpage - But about ½ of the raid roster actually reads it. People getting stuff for the encounters (Something as minor as changing glyphs out (major) for that specific boss fight, for instance Dragons Breath glyph for Chogall). Sometimes people aren't specced, glyphed, reforged properly.
And let me get something straight. Our people are not quitting. Our guild is what makes WoW fun for us, the raiding is awesome compared to what I tryed before. Its casual, its fun, its decent progression.

I have been a leader for these folks for a long time, but the problem has always been the same. Me and the 2 other officers, are always doing work for ½ of the raid roster. Its what causing my personal burnout, and I don't want it to happen. While my raiding times are still fun as hell, my "preparation time" is enormous, and this is really sad.

So, how do i motivate people, get people to sign up in time, and in reality get 10 people available for every raid? (2tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps (2 melee 3 ranged max)).

PS: Can give more info about my roster etc if needed.

[Deleted]

As a GM of a small raiding guild, we consider ourselves to be semi hardcore - only 4 nights a week and 50% attendence right now (used to be more strict). I can categorically tell you right now it's not you. The game always goes through phases, even within a raiding week. It's amazing how justa few people thinking 'meh, not tonight' can have sucha huge impact, but it does.

You just have to roll with it, and try and absorb as much pain as possible.

One way to do this is over recruit, but therin lies other issues. A nice halfway we found was having a few socials in at 85, people that couldnt do the 2/4, but were able to step in if they were on and needed. It's not ideal, but it takes some pressure away from the core raiders.

It's also something to remember that fostering a good guild environment only helps. If someone does let you down, then try and let it slide, bawling them out in /g will help nobody, so if you can prove you are accomodating to people making mistakes or forgetting thing, or not showing up once in a while, then generally they are more giving in their time.

Ruling with an iron fist doesn't work any more in wow, people just move on. (caveat, it works in SOME hardcore guilds, of the non hardcore who do, all I see is a very frequently changed raid roster where they managed to piss people off).

[Twoflower]

Having such a small roster only works if people realy show up ALL THE TIME ! If your guild members want to keep the guild small, they need to understand that it is up to THEM to show up. Otherwise, you have to recruit.

Also, over the next month, take notes on who is online for progress raids and who is online for farm raids. If there are patterns emerging, kick the guys who only come to farm raids. You dont need them. They are the guys who take the loot from the serious raiders who would need it.

[Deleted]

Having such a small roster only works if people realy show up ALL THE TIME ! If your guild members want to keep the guild small, they need to understand that it is up to THEM to show up. Otherwise, you have to recruit.

Also, over the next month, take notes on who is online for progress raids and who is online for farm raids. If there are patterns emerging, kick the guys who only come to farm raids. You dont need them. They are the guys who take the loot from the serious raiders who would need it.

Hmm. Removing them from raid team, perhaps. I am considering if people does A: Not sign up, B: Not spec/gear etc check up C: Read up on boss fights - Not bringing them for that raid. Just to get the message through. Im not sure if its too harsh.
While your a tad to "strict for us", you gave me something to think about. (Also @the poster abve you). Gonna write stuff down (:

[Deleted]

It's amazing how justa few people thinking 'meh, not tonight' can have sucha huge impact, but it does.

You just have to roll with it, and try and absorb as much pain as possible.

I've come to think it's better to just skip raiding for the night/week if there's any sign of trouble (from taking social members along, or having to wait long to fill the raid after starting time) from several regulars not making the raid. The n1 source of my guild's trouble might be the fact the A-raid never had any backup players (due to the B-raid needing everything they can get to be able to raid consistently, and us being too nice to just let them be backups), but anyway..

We've struggled for the last 2 months to get a good raid going for the majority of the raid nights in that time (due to even 1+ regulars not making the raid for good IRL reasons), and now that things have calmed down with the IRL stuff for them a couple weeks ago, some others are burned out from the struggle - during the last two months we barely got 1 raid going on most weeks, and when we did have a good week on two occasions we actually got 3 new HC bosses down on the first week, and 2 new ones on the second in just one night (those 2 were disappointingly just a day or two after they were significantly nerfed, though), which made it all the more frustrating to think where we would be without all this trouble.

If we had just taken the bad weeks off, it would've saved people the frustration of logging on and having the raid cancelled, or just getting 1 farm raid with no progress in the whole week. Now the A-raid is pretty much done for until Firelands (which doesn't look all that hopeful either, actually).

As an answer to the question "How to maintain a tight yet strong roster as a 10 man raiding guild?", I'd say: if the roster is to remain tight you need to accept it when the raid doesn't seem to happen, instead of trying to forcefully get one going and potentially making people frustrated from "inefficient" raiding.

[Deleted]

Also, a good tip. Use World of Logs, it has an attendence tacker of sorts in it, and allows people to epeen about their skills, whilst letting the real raiders constructively analyse the weak spots.

[Dunee]

to start out with I play with faylo in the raid team.

@MarriageAuch

the thing is we have so many people that we know IRL that are somewhat good players and in general awesome people that we love to raid with (when we have those good days).
so if we were to 'over recruit' so we would always have a full rooster to pick and choose from, we would end out in a situation where we would have to chose between people EVERY RAID which in turn would mean we would have a lot more people not raiding at all (seeing as we raid twice a week)

and we are not nearly as hardcore as you guys are (again raid half the time you do) and we actually do have a few casuals that could play (though this would again end out in the gear difference being quite great, with only 2 items per boss dropping)

yeah it might be a phase we are going through, but frankly it's only going to get worse (we are all entering an exams period, and most of us on our last year) then comes summer vacation with people leaving for random locations, sending the guilds in slight coma states (unless a huge rooster is present).
fin summer and we enter a new year and people start out at new placing wishing to have a good start and crush some classes, making a good impression at new places, doing all your work and a bit extra. all in all it's never really a good place to and time to raid serious.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here other than please bring some tips for us :'<

[Deleted]

Switch to SC2, only retards will continue to play wow. How bad must you be to still play such a boring casual-game with absolutly no need of skill.
(User was infracted for this post)

[Deleted]

Well, my first point would be, if the people you raid with really are awesome people, then they will realise why occasionally they need to be benched in order for the guild as a whole to improve and grow.

I am lucky now that my 2 officers and about 5-6 other members are with me for life, they see no other guild future than ours, and that helps me build a very solid core - however every single one of those knows that rotation HAS to happen to maintain a healthy non-hardcore guild. Nobody is above being dropped, so we try to make it as fair as possible, and as transparent as possible.

People bitch less if they understand why you do things, they may not agree, and it will totally stop the bitching, but everyone should at least comprehend that to make a co-operative society, that succeeds, then everyone has to make a sacrifice at some stage.

It annoys me how little blizzard pay heed to this, there seems to be little incentive to remain loyal (the guild xp system isn't exactly something to shout about). There are a LOT of small time guilds, like us, who continue to get a rotation of applicants who basically nerdrage or get themselves kicked because to them 'it's just a game'.

Allowing a profiling system would address this, like linkdin, people can review and blacklist certain players - get a bad realm rep and you will have to xfer, perhaps think abotu that before being a dick.

Anyway, i digress. The answer to your question is only in your hands. You will have to speak to the core of the guild and see what they feel, this level of openess will be rewarding for them, and help you gauge what is acceptable to the majority.

---------- Post added 2011-04-05 at 01:04 PM ----------

Switch to SC2, only retards will continue to play wow. How bad must you be to still play such a boring casual-game with absolutly no need of skill.

And how much more retarded to not play but continue to post about it.

[Deleted]

There is no special tip or way to deal with this, most casual guilds overrecruit because of lower attendance. If you don't want to overrecruit, well that's that. You'll just have to reschedule or cancel raids.

As for personal burnout your best bet would be to sit down the entire raid and speak with them for a min or two about this. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to research a fight, maybe 10-15 min. Most people who want the boss dead will do it on their own. Ask them if they want the boss dead or if they don't really care, and if they don't really care enough to do that research for themselves (let alone for the rest of the raid) then why are they raiding?

[Reucht]

I skimmed through the thread. As a raidleader/GM of a "casual" 10-man guild, I can tell you it's a very thin line you walk on.

First off, to make sure you can raid every night, inform your members that they have to show/sign up or atleast give notice when they can't. Next step would be, if a certain role is underrepresented, recruit more of that role. Ye, some people might not be able to raid then, but they created the problem, you created the solution. For example, we're kinda low on healers atm, I said in a previous raid that healers would have to show up more or I would check what healing class doesn't show up all that often and recruit more of them. (Our pala joins 2/4 raids, I find another pala who wants to raid atleast 2/4 raids).

Also, having a full roster isn't such a bad thing. You should aim for 12 people online every raid night, so when people get burned out, you have replacement, when wife/job/school is acting up, you have replacement.

Second, you pulling the weight would be solved by recruiting some more too. What form of punishment you got now? People failing, not being prepared, going afk, dc/pc issues, ... could all be solved by threatening to replace with those guys in standby.

Also, testing one new recruit every week, gives you an extra spot for a while. You can test and kick/keep after, your members must understand and the recruit would understand he's just the newbie and has lowest priority on a spot.

My 5 cents, altho I find it interesting what other people have to say about this.

[Keren]

So, how do i motivate people, get people to sign up in time, and in reality get 10 people available for every raid? (2tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps (2 melee 3 ranged max)).

PS: Can give more info about my roster etc if needed.

Hi, I'm 2nd in charge in our 10 person, too. Till prelast id we had a 25 man raid (11/12), but ellapsed. As a result, I ended up asking people I have trust in, if they want to start a 10 man raid. Now we do have a really bad setup (11 people too) but maintained 2/13 HC this ID. 3 days the week, 19°° - 23°° o'clock.. =)

Most encouraging thing are free flasks (Cauldron), free feasts and free maelstrom to enchant new HC gear. Due to rl-issues I witness 1 time we are only 9 man (killed some selected encounters with 9 people). Now I recruited 1 Shadow and are look after 3 more (dk, warlock, druid) because of non of these classes are in our raidcomp.. *shrug*

In my opinion, you have to get people who know there stuff or to teach them quickly where they could find relating stuff for there classes and bosstactics. If someone come unprepared to one of my raids, they get no loot from this encounter, still if they the only one that can make use of the loot. They know that, so they are prepared and have sometimes good sources for easier or better tactics. Hope this coming ID we will get 5/13 HC.

Because of the high rl relations you should talk to them and discuss the idea to set the days on the fly. At the end of the one evening you talk to them when the best next day is.. Or you take a vote in forum or so..

Sorry, most time I only read here because I know my english skill sucks. Hope you could detect the context in my sentences..

[Myrkur]

Have you thought about going from 4 days a week down to 3? Or maybe just straight up 2?

What is causing people to miss raids? Is it apathy towards the bosses you are doing that night or is it actual IRL stuff? I have a feeling that after people have gotten their 50% attendance for the week they feel less of a need to log on. They may think that someone else will cover, but someone else doesn't and you are left to PUG the last 2 spots.

I run a 10 man, and we are 12/12. We raid 3 nights a week for 2-3 hours a night. When we started to work on Nefarian I had a couple people show disinterest. They would log on, but wouldn't mind if the raid was canceled. We talked about it, and they came around with the argument of "9 hours a week isn't that much. What are you doing on wednesday/monday night anyway?"

I suggest cutting down the amount of days you raid. You can clear BWD and BoT Normal modes in 3.5 to 4 hours. You guys could clear all normal modes in one night. That leaves you 6-7 hours a week for progression. But instead of doing a bunch of Farm content the first night and then cockblocking yourself for 2 days with a really hard boss, do some progression every Raid night and always leave Farm Bosses to kill for the next Raid that week.

At 4/13 I assume you have Halfus, Chimaeron, Atramedes and Maloriak down? If you are going after Magmaw next (which is what I would do) then start your Raid Week off on Heroic Magmaw. Do Attempts for 1-1.5 hours, if you haven't killed him then do ODS, Heroic Chim/Atra/Maloriak. Next Raid night you can try Heroic Magmaw again, or do all of BoT and then come to Magmaw. If you haven't Killed heroic Magmaw by the time you only have 1-1.5 hours left in the raid week then switch to Normal and pound out normal Magmaw and Nef.

That way there is always the promise of loot dropping in a Raid. Those nights where you Wipe to the same boss for 3 hours, and noone gets anything is very rough on people. Everyone that raids at that level says they do it for fun, but losing for 3 hours is not fun. Killing a boss and seeing people get loot is fun.

[Deleted]

we handle it like that. we got a roster of like 18 ppl for our 10man guild.

we bring the less equipped guys and twinks for farmbosses and get our best possible setup for the progress bosses.

( in my opinion having geared twinks is kinda necessery so you can try different setups and stuff like that and we also try to get the ppls gear for their offspecs)

you just have to make sure that noone gets pissed if he has to sit out for a boss or a raid night.

we also set up a 5th date on the calendar each week and check on what days ppl can raid that week

[Dunee]

Have you thought about going from 4 days a week down to 3? Or maybe just straight up 2?
blabla wall of text

Speaking from OPs PoV (still in his raid team)

We raide twice a weak TWICE thats twot times from 20--23 (extendable by 30min if needed)
we have halfus/chim/atra/magmaw down (haven't touched maloriak) we usually clear BoT in 1h (halfus on HC rest on normal) and that goes quite smooth

[Deleted]

we handle it like that. we got a roster of like 18 ppl for our 10man guild.

we bring the less equipped guys and twinks for farmbosses and get our best possible setup for the progress bosses.

( in my opinion having geared twinks is kinda necessery so you can try different setups and stuff like that and we also try to get the ppls gear for their offspecs)

you just have to make sure that noone gets pissed if he has to sit out for a boss or a raid night.

we also set up a 5th date on the calendar each week and check on what days ppl can raid that week

That might help! Putting 3 days up, but only raiding 2 could work. Thats atleast something. And thanks for the support in the thread so far. Keep it coming

[Kiry]

As a small HM guild (6/12 atm). We have 13 raiders. 1 healer, 2 dps extra.

3 days raiding. sometimes we use that 4th day only if everyone shows up and wants to progress. Honestly - it's up to the team. If the team wants to progress, trust me they will show. We often have 2 sitting out on bosses. having switch out, frequent communication amongst the team is absolute must.

[Deleted]

well i donno about 10man , but in my 25man guild we have about 8 reserves per raid night, that will switch in as needed, we also have about ten other players playing alts or social positions that we can call on if needed, its seems to me like you need to recruit more players, the more people you have the more competitive the raid positions become, people will look up bosses and learn tactics to show they are doing well in order to get a spot to the nex raid, as for people being specced wrong, this is a judgement call on your part, its often a good idea to ellect a class leader from your ranks to serve as an example to other players of that class. If you say play a paladin main, the mage isnt going to be happy with you telling him hes specced wrong, but if your class leader mage who has the best dps on the board nudges the other mages in the right direction, no harm or offense is done

but generally this seems like a player problem, you need to decide wether you really like these people who turn up to raids un prepared, wasting you and your officers time, or you want to get serious,
if its the first option then just accept you have a social guild and chill out, if its the second recruit better players and let the others know that you arent messing around, raids will only be arranged for people who want to do there best, remember you dont OWE them a raid spot, you are taking your valuable time to arrange a raid, get players in, get the guild running, the least they can do is turn up prepared, IF they arent prepared to do that then you should take offense

also to motivate people they need to feel like there part of something, maybe look up your server rank, and notify them when you go up a few places, its like a team moving up in the leagues, when you down a boss it is the WHOLE guild that has accomplished not just the ones playing, its the people farming for the buffs, the reserves that were eager to jump in everyone, make sure they feel part of it

[abysscrystal]

To the OP:

Problem is that some of you want to progress, others not, you can't make both groups happy all the time.

In the current situation the group who does not really want to progress can just simply dont show up if they don't want, they will still be in the raid anytime when raid happens, so they are completely happy and they dont give a sh*t about what the others want, wasting others time and wrecking their fun in progression.

You have two choices, recruit raiders and demote the slackers to social, or you can say if u cba, I cba too and leave an alt in the guild for casual progression and fun and bring your main to a raiding guild/you create a guild with your core raiding members where you can progess.

[Sansnom]

One way to do this is over recruit, but therin lies other issues. A nice halfway we found was having a few socials in at 85, people that couldnt do the 2/4, but were able to step in if they were on and needed. It's not ideal, but it takes some pressure away from the core raiders.

Pretty much this. The guild I am in tend to have schedule runs and if the "progression" people are on, they get the nod and go. If not enough are on, then the casuals are invited. Fortunately, the guild is a social/casual raiding guild so some members, such as me, are okay being the subsitute raider.