Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The Lazy Peon video nailed it, especially the inventory clog and the jankiness of the scripting with NPCs talking over each other.

[Edge-]

I hadn't seen it until you mentioned it and I went to look...I'm just glad he touched on the thing that always makes me pissed about GW2: You log in, want to do some content, find a build, don't have the gear, go buy it all, blow your bank on it, and you can finally do some content...with one build, on one character, in one form of content.

What's the expectation, though?

That you can just log in and make endless builds with no effort or investment? Short of some MMO's that throw full sets of gear at you basically for free when you reach max level/"current content" GW2 has one of the easiest gearing systems in MMO's I can think of, and if you're just experimenting the barrier for entry for builds is ludicrously cheap if you simply buy rare/yellow gear. Sure, subpar stats but if the goal is just to test a build to see if you want to invest in it as one of "your builds" then it's perfectly functional.

To boot, with the updated daily system throwing ascended gear and gold at you like nobodies business it's all the easier.

Yes, it does cost a bit of gold to put together a near-BiS (not ascended/legendary) set of gear that will literally be more than good enough to play through all the content in the game.

I've seen some chatter about the video and am largely uninterested in it or Lazy Peon and shit, and it seems like based on what folks who did watched have written Peon was painfully incorrect on a lot of topics of criticism, gear included.

It's a silly barrier to entry, and kills any desire to experiment, try stuff, play other modes, etc.

I'm not trying to be dismissive but this is just really a weird take because like...this is literally a big part of literally every MMO out there? I can't think of any that allow you to freely acquire and experiment with high end gear like you seem to be describing. All require far more effort and investment to even get to the level of gear that a set of exotics in GW2 will have you at >.>

Just remove gear altogether and do what they do in sPvP. Gear is stupid anyway, you get no enjoyment from getting it, you only get annoyed by not having the prefixes.

Because gear serves a purpose still. Because part of what made expansions, expansions, was adding new stat combinations for folks to farm up to open up more/different builds. Because acquiring ascended gear is still pretty important for fractals and affords a minimal amount of vertical progression for those that care. Because we're about to get legendary open world armor that will be a long grind of things to do.

- - - Updated - - -

The Lazy Peon video nailed it, especially the inventory clog and the jankiness of the scripting with NPCs talking over each other.

I don't watch YT shit for the most part, but what was his complaint about inventory, specifically? I recall reading a few folks that commented that apparently he didn't even know about depositing crafting materials and was using 4 slot bags and like...yeah that'll 100% do it if you simply choose to use none of the tools provided to make inventory management less of a chore.

[Ghost of Cow]

What's the expectation, though?

That you can just log in and make endless builds with no effort or investment?

Like you can already do in sPvP?

Yeah, don't try to make it sound TOO crazy.

I'm not trying to be dismissive but this is just really a weird take because like...this is literally a big part of literally every MMO out there? I can't think of any that allow you to freely acquire and experiment with high end gear like you seem to be describing. All require far more effort and investment to even get to the level of gear that a set of exotics in GW2 will have you at >.>

But they don't. In other MMOs I can level a class and play every aspect of it in any content without worry. No issue to try new builds, new content, etc. Sure, there's vertical progression, but that's not locking you out of playing anything. (And at least it usually means that you're progressing something, not just accumulating gold.)

In GW2 you can play like 1/6th of any given class even after buying a full set of gear, weapons, sigils, runes, whatever. Wanna play another spec, or god forbid another character? Buy gems or grind gold for longer than it would take to just gear up a class in another game.

Because gear serves a purpose still. Because part of what made expansions, expansions, was adding new stat combinations for folks to farm up to open up more/different builds. Because acquiring ascended gear is still pretty important for fractals and affords a minimal amount of vertical progression for those that care. Because we're about to get legendary open world armor that will be a long grind of things to do.

Well yeah, because they still want to give you a reason to buy more gems. Because really, the gear itself serves no purpose. You're never happy to get a drop, you never have a sense of progression, you never get anything of value outside of precursors or something that most people still haven't seen, and the "endgame" has always been cosmetics, achievements, whatever anyway.

The ONLY purpose is to be a barrier to entry - not even to be a fun progression or something - and it's not hard to see why.

[Edge-]

Like you can already do in sPvP?

Yeah, don't try to make it sound TOO crazy.

Yeah. You used to have gear IIRC but I guess they did away with it a long time ago, I noticed that it was gone a while back. But that makes sense for PvP because the whole point is putting folks on the same playing field and that there's no real "progression" like in PvE - it's just PvP.

But they don't. In other MMOs I can level a class and play every aspect of it in any content without worry. No issue to try new builds, new content, etc. Sure, there's vertical progression, but that's not locking you out of playing anything. (And at least it usually means that you're progressing something, not just accumulating gold.)

In GW2 you can play like 1/6th of any given class even after buying a full set of gear, weapons, sigils, runes, whatever. Wanna play another spec, or god forbid another character? Buy gems or grind gold for longer than it would take to just gear up a class in another game.

I'm...confused...what?

Most other games - barring WoW at least - require different sets of gear for different roles or sub-classes etc. You're not just getting "your set" and then you can do whatever you want without having to earn/buy other gear to support it.

Buy gems? Gem <-> gold has always been pretty shit and you only do that if you're a whale. Especially with the new daily system shitting gold and ascended gear at you.

Grind gold for longer than other games? I suck at farming gold and never do it and I've always had more than enough to buy whatever set I need without worry. It's really not terribly difficult to farm 10-20G to buy some basic sets if you want to play those roles. You can earn that in a few days if you actually put some intent behind the farming, even if you suck at it.

1/6? What does that even mean?

Well yeah, because they still want to give you a reason to buy more gems.

No, not really, and your hyperfocus on gems is weird.

Most gear that matters is ascended gear, which you need to craft in-game or otherwise earn via in-game currencies and the like. Sure gold can speed that up and all and you can buy exotic versions but again, that's not terribly expensive.

Because really, the gear itself serves no purpose. You're never happy to get a drop, you never have a sense of progression, you never get anything of value outside of precursors or something that most people still haven't seen, and the "endgame" has always been cosmetics, achievements, whatever anyway.

I'm happy to get drops. Not necessarily for the stat combos but for the items themselves. My progression isn't through linear power improvements, it's from completing achievements and earning associated rewards. It's from getting the sweet fucking frost ascended frost greatsword from Dragonstorm.

The ONLY purpose is to be a barrier to entry - not even to be a fun progression or something - and it's not hard to see why.

To a point, yeah. And putting together your full set of new gear with the new stat combo feels good once it's done.

You can argue the same for leveling and just about anything else in games that takes time or has any amount of friction. Things which are often pretty important in the overall experience even if people often gripe about them.

[PACOX]

Like you can already do in sPvP?

Yeah, don't try to make it sound TOO crazy.



But they don't. In other MMOs I can level a class and play every aspect of it in any content without worry. No issue to try new builds, new content, etc. Sure, there's vertical progression, but that's not locking you out of playing anything. (And at least it usually means that you're progressing something, not just accumulating gold.)

In GW2 you can play like 1/6th of any given class even after buying a full set of gear, weapons, sigils, runes, whatever. Wanna play another spec, or god forbid another character? Buy gems or grind gold for longer than it would take to just gear up a class in another game.



Well yeah, because they still want to give you a reason to buy more gems. Because really, the gear itself serves no purpose. You're never happy to get a drop, you never have a sense of progression, you never get anything of value outside of precursors or something that most people still haven't seen, and the "endgame" has always been cosmetics, achievements, whatever anyway.

The ONLY purpose is to be a barrier to entry - not even to be a fun progression or something - and it's not hard to see why.

Wait you know how can carry multiple sets of gear, unequip said gear, change your build on the fly, even store multiple guilds, right?

[Edge-]

Wait you know how can carry multiple sets of gear, unequip said gear, change your build on the fly, even store multiple guilds, right?

Hell, the gear stored in your saved sets doesn't even take up inventory room to boot. I've got two different power sets that use identical gear (dragonhunter and willbender, both greatsword/longbow) and I'm strongly considering something like dropping one of those and finding another build to roll with. I almost want to tinker around with some core builds to see how those role after not playing a proper one since like...HoT lol.

[Ghost of Cow]

Wait you know how can carry multiple sets of gear, unequip said gear, change your build on the fly, even store multiple guilds, right?

Not sure what storing gear has to do with any of this? Did I say storing it was a problem?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah. You used to have gear IIRC but I guess they did away with it a long time ago, I noticed that it was gone a while back. But that makes sense for PvP because the whole point is putting folks on the same playing field and that there's no real "progression" like in PvE - it's just PvP.

You never had to gear in sPvP. It was always just "pop in, play whatever".

Much of GW2 in general was this way early on - even "real" gear was extremely cheap and easy to get. It wasn't until HoT that they started on this, "New prefixes and new stats that are better and cost a lot more."

That's part of why this bothers me like it does, it wasn't always this way. All the prefixes were pretty easy to get - mostly with Karma - and there was never a concern about getting all the gear you could ever want. That was the original GW2 design, and part of what sold the game early on. No gearing worries, freedom in builds and classes, focus on the gameplay and not gear. Then they decided on this weird progression-but-not-progression set of systems and now the game feels somehow more restrictive than other games with actual vertical progression.

I'm...confused...what?

Most other games - barring WoW at least - require different sets of gear for different roles or sub-classes etc. You're not just getting "your set" and then you can do whatever you want without having to earn/buy other gear to support it.

If I play a Priest in WoW - regardless of my gear level - all the abilities work. I don't need two different stats to make my DoTs actually work and two more to make my direct damage actually work and another to make my heals work and another to make my buffs worthwhile, and so on.

No, not really, and your hyperfocus on gems is weird.

Most gear that matters is ascended gear, which you need to craft in-game or otherwise earn via in-game currencies and the like. Sure gold can speed that up and all and you can buy exotic versions but again, that's not terribly expensive.

Yes, they put in all those grinds that you can bypass with gold and you just happen to be able to buy gold with cash and it's coincidence. C'mon now.

It's not that I fault them for it, but can we not pretend like it's not a thing?

I'm happy to get drops. Not necessarily for the stat combos but for the items themselves. My progression isn't through linear power improvements, it's from completing achievements and earning associated rewards. It's from getting the sweet fucking frost ascended frost greatsword from Dragonstorm.

Sure, cosmetics and such. So why gate gear so much? It doesn't even really matter and there's no progression, but we gotta have a gold economy to make the sales worthwhile.

(And no, there's no green or yellow versions of gear with newer prefixes. Again, we know why this is.)

[PACOX]

ironically anet made it very easy to gear today, not that gearing was ever hard. For years its been about 6g to gear a power dps, a brief farm to gear condi dps, supports ~10g. Its not 5g and 400 badges of honor (a very brief stint in WvW) to farm up a full set of stat select gear.

Gear has never been an issue in a game that only asks you to farm any particular set once wish countless ways to obtain said stats on a piece of gear. Countless. I have the people who write guides on gearing constantly remind me how many ways the game throws stat options at you.

Gearing only gets complicated when you're trying to squeeze 1k more dps or cut down on overcaping boon output. Thats when people start mixing stats but the game doesn't require it at all, per the words of the devs.

[Ghost of Cow]

ironically anet made it very easy to gear today, not that gearing was ever hard. For years its been about 6g to gear a power dps, a brief farm to gear condi dps, supports ~10g. Its not 5g and 400 badges of honor (a very brief stint in WvW) to farm up a full set of stat select gear.

Not entirely sure where you're getting these figures today. It sounds like you're talking about old GW2 where this was possible, but newer gear is more than that per piece and doesn't come from Badge of Honor vendors or anything.

[Scyth]

Berserker gear is quite cheap, no? Celestial or Condi is a bit more pricey but by no means difficult to get. You just need to play the game..

Today's patch made it even easier to get gear but I'm fairly sure some will complain they have to do WvW in order to get it.

[Ghost of Cow]

Berserker gear is quite cheap, no? Celestial or Condi is a bit more pricey but by no means difficult to get. You just need to play the game..

Today's patch made it even easier to get gear but I'm fairly sure some will complain they have to do WvW in order to get it.

Zerker is really cheap, yeah. And it's actually used a lot more than I remember in previous metas, looking at the current builds for a lot of classes. Looking at GW2 TP, Scholar runes are way, WAY cheaper than I remember, too.

Who knows, maybe it's not as bad as I remember it being last time I tried.

[PACOX]

Not entirely sure where you're getting these figures today. It sounds like you're talking about old GW2 where this was possible, but newer gear is more than that per piece and doesn't come from Badge of Honor vendors or anything.

Why would I say Anet just added a new way to get hear and then use old numbers...

Really what would I have to gain from telling such a lie?

[Ghost of Cow]

Why would I say Anet just added a new way to get hear and then use old numbers...

Really what would I have to gain from telling such a lie?

Well I didn't say you were lying. I know it's MMO-C but not every discussion is intended to be a fight. Just that what you were saying sounded like the older systems in the game, not what I remembered from more recent stuff.

When you said "today" I thought you meant as in, "In current GW2" and not "they changed something literally on this day" so that was a misunderstanding, too.

Edit: Well would you look at that: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/TEI..._Vendor_System

[PACOX]

Berserker gear is quite cheap, no? Celestial or Condi is a bit more pricey but by no means difficult to get. You just need to play the game..

Today's patch made it even easier to get gear but I'm fairly sure some will complain they have to do WvW in order to get it.

5g and 400 badges of honor for armor. Just shy of 2 hours of gameplay of you only get badges from the skirmish cheats.

[Edge-]

Much of GW2 in general was this way early on - even "real" gear was extremely cheap and easy to get. It wasn't until HoT that they started on this, "New prefixes and new stats that are better and cost a lot more."

I mean...they're not, though? They can open new builds, but the stats aren't "better" necessarily. Ye-olden Berserker builds that have existed since vanilla are still strong. The more recent stat combos do cost more, you're right, but it's still hardly prohibitively expensive unless you want to have gear with every stat combo on it or something, lol.

That's part of why this bothers me like it does, it wasn't always this way. All the prefixes were pretty easy to get - mostly with Karma - and there was never a concern about getting all the gear you could ever want.

That mostly exists still and you can earn plenty of gear of more recent stat combos in-game. There's still little concern about getting gear unless you don't play at all, you're broke, but you want to instantly get like 2-3 sets of gear.

That was the original GW2 design, and part of what sold the game early on. No gearing worries, freedom in builds and classes, focus on the gameplay and not gear. Then they decided on this weird progression-but-not-progression set of systems and now the game feels somehow more restrictive than other games with actual vertical progression.

I don't get this at all when I play, hence why I continue to argue that short of a game like ESO (which also uses horizontal gear progression with new stats/set bonuses coming through expansions) there are few if any other MMO's that have barriers of entry as low as GW2 does in terms of gearing.

And I don't think, "Gear costs nothing! It's basically free!" was ever a part of the design intent, just the horizontal gear progression (which hasn't stopped power creep but oh well)

If I play a Priest in WoW - regardless of my gear level - all the abilities work. I don't need two different stats to make my DoTs actually work and two more to make my direct damage actually work and another to make my heals work and another to make my buffs worthwhile, and so on.

rofl what

If you play a priest in WoW - pre gear changing stats when you change specs - you'd gear for pure healing power as a healer. Sure you can still do damage, but you deal dick for damage. And if you geared for pure damage you can still heal and all, but your heals would suck even if you're specc'd for it.

Same for GW2. If you have a zerker set you can still play a condi build...your damage will just suck. I'm unsure how you view these two things as different and not the exact same scenario playing out in two different games.

Yes, they put in all those grinds that you can bypass with gold and you just happen to be able to buy gold with cash and it's coincidence. C'mon now.

It's not that I fault them for it, but can we not pretend like it's not a thing?

To a point, yeah. But many recipes need to be earned in-game to craft the ascended gear etc. anyways.

You continue to be hyperfocused on the gems <-> gold exchange that gets far less use than you probably think it does. I'm not pretending it's not a thing, but you appear to be of the opinion that it's central to these kinds of decisions made by Anet which seems inaccurate.

Sure, cosmetics and such. So why gate gear so much? It doesn't even really matter and there's no progression, but we gotta have a gold economy to make the sales worthwhile.

"So much"

Again, it's barely gated and if you play even casually you should have more than enough gold to instantly buy a full set of the latest stat combo on exotic gear. Why gate it? Because they need to continue to add sinks for all the crafting materials people are endlessly acquiring which is sorta the core loop within the game. To give many people something else to work towards in the expansion beyond just cosmetics and achieves if they want to.

Seriously, I don't like dismissing criticism but it's incredibly hard to take, "Gear is expensive!" as a serious criticism for GW2. It is, again, arguably the cheapest and easiest to gear a character of any MMO I've played in the past few decades and can think of off the top of my head. Short of something like ESO which is close but loses because you have to track down player merchants to find the gear you want sometimes, I can't think of a game that's remotely as easy as, "Log in, spend a few dozen gold you farmed up in maybe a week or that you got from a few days worth of daily missions and whatnot, enjoy your new set of gear that opens up a new build option for you."

[Ghost of Cow]

If you play a priest in WoW - pre gear changing stats when you change specs - you'd gear for pure healing power as a healer. Sure you can still do damage, but you deal dick for damage. And if you geared for pure damage you can still heal and all, but your heals would suck even if you're specc'd for it.

...wat?

"Healing Power" hasn't been a thing for going on two decades, and even when it was you didn't actually use it. Int is your primary stat and that's that.

Paladin would be a better example pre-stat-changes since it was str and int, but that was way in the past anyway.

"So much"

Again, it's barely gated and if you play even casually you should have more than enough gold to instantly buy a full set of the latest stat combo on exotic gear. Why gate it? Because they need to continue to add sinks for all the crafting materials people are endlessly acquiring which is sorta the core loop within the game. To give many people something else to work towards in the expansion beyond just cosmetics and achieves if they want to.

Seriously, I don't like dismissing criticism but it's incredibly hard to take, "Gear is expensive!" as a serious criticism for GW2. It is, again, arguably the cheapest and easiest to gear a character of any MMO I've played in the past few decades and can think of off the top of my head. Short of something like ESO which is close but loses because you have to track down player merchants to find the gear you want sometimes, I can't think of a game that's remotely as easy as, "Log in, spend a few dozen gold you farmed up in maybe a week or that you got from a few days worth of daily missions and whatnot, enjoy your new set of gear that opens up a new build option for you."

Well, the good news is that it looks like ANet went and put all stat prefixes on the WvW vendor, so I guess they felt it needed some fixing. So that's a good thing.

[Edge-]

...wat?

"Healing Power" hasn't been a thing for going on two decades, and even when it was you didn't actually use it. Int is your primary stat and that's that.

Paladin would be a better example pre-stat-changes since it was str and int, but that was way in the past anyway.

Yes, I'm aware. I specifically noted that in my post and previously in calling out how WoW changes the stats on your gear when you change specs and how WoW is unique in that it's the only MMO that does this. My comparison remains accurate as it was a comparison to a time before WoW did this. Back in the days when you needed to stack healing power/spell damage to do your role because your primary stat was what you built around.

Well, the good news is that it looks like ANet went and put all stat prefixes on the WvW vendor, so I guess they felt it needed some fixing. So that's a good thing.

More, actually. They've added a lot of stat-selectable gear and rewards throughout expansions. They don't always cover every combo, but usually everything up until that expansion. I'd forgotten about how much of that they've added in over the years.

[PACOX]

I don't know if they benefit people, make the story feel fresh, whatever but Anet has been adding achievements to Soto since launch. They also keep adding new 'special' objectives to the Wizard Vault system. Good way to keep the game fresh in between releases.


A month after release I still have a bunch of collections in interested in completing. The Wizard Vault is insanely generous, maybe too generous? I've capped it several times at this point, sometimes only logging for 30 min at a time a few times a week. Every cosmetic that I wanted (all but some of the weapons) , done. Bonus build slots, done. A legendary weapon worth of Mythic Clovers. Random number of Mystic Coins I bought to get under cap. Maxed out on the cheap bags of gold. Ill cap again this week if I decide to finish my weeklies.

[Edge-]

I don't know if they benefit people, make the story feel fresh, whatever but Anet has been adding achievements to Soto since launch. They also keep adding new 'special' objectives to the Wizard Vault system. Good way to keep the game fresh in between releases.


A month after release I still have a bunch of collections in interested in completing. The Wizard Vault is insanely generous, maybe too generous? I've capped it several times at this point, sometimes only logging for 30 min at a time a few times a week. Every cosmetic that I wanted (all but some of the weapons) , done. Bonus build slots, done. A legendary weapon worth of Mythic Clovers. Random number of Mystic Coins I bought to get under cap. Maxed out on the cheap bags of gold. Ill cap again this week if I decide to finish my weeklies.

It's almost to the point where there's just too much AA available, lol. We're up to a dozen special missions all rewarding 300+ on top of our regular daily/weekly gains. I doubt it'll be like this each "season" or whatever, but even if it's not we're not even halfway through this one (I think) and I've already basically run out of stuff to buy.

Got every single cosmetic, got all the cheap gold and elixers and shit, got the legendary starter and the ascended gear (I've now got almost a full zerker set which is nice!), now I'm just blowing AA on obsidian and clovers and shit because I genuinely don't know what else to really buy. I'll just be dumping AA on the expensive gold and T5 crafting mats by the time this shit wraps up.

Which is great though, because even if they do dramatically reign in the special missions it means that we won't have to worry too much about farming a lot to at least get the cosmetics from a refresh. And it should make earning some older stuff that's in the "vault" a bit less of a concern, too.

[Lotus Victoria]

Gearing up is not as bad as people here are making it sound. I don't know what kind of mega hardcore groups you people are a part of, but getting exotics and even ascended gear has been pretty easy in a number of years now, either by map completion, TPs, NPC Vendors, PvP/WvW and so on.

Also, never hard to deal with a group that asked me for full legendary armor or even full ascended stuff. The community is pretty chill, and I've played this game for 10 years, so I don't get the fuzz.