Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Squirrelbanes]

But we can't master 3 different areas. We can, at best, master two.

Some would say it should only be possible to master 1.

[Maarius]

Some would say it should only be possible to master 1.

define master. Some would say you master a line by taking the "best" (whatever that is) trait from a line.
on the other hand, is it really mastering a line, if you take 2 filler-traits and one trait 12 (which isn't really better than any other trait, it only synergizes with traits from a different line - like +30% minion damage).

with that example: you "mastered" the spite-line (non-minion line) by taking the grandmaster trait: +30% minion damage.

[Squirrelbanes]

define master. Some would say you master a line by taking the "best" (whatever that is) trait from a line.
on the other hand, is it really mastering a line, if you take 2 filler-traits and one trait 12 (which isn't really better than any other trait, it only synergizes with traits from a different line - like +30% minion damage).

with that example: you "mastered" the spite-line (non-minion line) by taking the grandmaster trait: +30% minion damage.

Many others would say you shouldn't be able to jump to the highest skill. Where's the mastery in that?

Anyway...I'm totally reserving judgement on the changes until we get some clarification. There may be a number of other changes related to this that we don't know about. I mean...we have 2 screenshots.
We'll just have to see how it works.

My only point for now is that Anet never make snap judgements. This will be part of the bigger picture, which I might add, is based off a build months older than we've played.

Imma just wait and see.

[DrakeWurrum]

If I can only turn a wrench really really good, and nothing else, I haven't mastered plumbing.

[Meledelion]

I wonder why the change to a tiered utility/elite skill system. Change seems kinda odd.

Really dislike having to pick up filler skills or PVP skills.

Finally I understand why you come from different points.
My hammer build was for PvP whilst yours is for PvE...
(time to go hang myself for being so silly )

Edit:

Of course, if you want another balancing disaster like the GW1 skill system, then I guess that is exactly what you want.

what was wrong with the balance in GW1????

[Squirrelbanes]

If I can only turn a wrench really really good, and nothing else, I haven't mastered plumbing.

That's simply ridiculous.
A "warrior" will never be a master of shield, bastard sword, long sword, 2 handed sword, hammer, 2 handed hammer, mace, 2 handed mace, pike, scythe,
crossbow, short bow, long bow, composite bow, composite yew bow...
That list could go on an on for pages.

Does a warrior have to be a warrior by mastering all of those disciplines? Of course not.

Anyway...that's getting far beyond the basis of GW2.
So I'll go back to what I said. We have no idea yet of the bigger picture. This is based off a build we haven't had access to. We don't even known if we'll have access to it in BWE2.
Just.............chill.

[terrahero]

Anyway...that's getting far beyond the basis of GW2.
So I'll go back to what I said. We have no idea yet of the bigger picture. This is based off a build we haven't had access to. We don't even known if we'll have access to it in BWE2.

Its not so much about mastering 2 things, but maybe being able to use several. And one of the risks with this change is that, if top-tier traits are flat out the best, you will be forced to specialize. And any build thats designed to tap into several, while mastering none, becomes obsolete.
You couldnt be decent with a Greatsword and decent with a Rifle. But you'd have to be a master of one or you are simply gimping yourself.

If a single trait was so powerfull that it essentially let you "master" a certain weapon, then perhaps that trait needed to be looked at instead of completely overhauling the system. Thats my biggest concern, they spend time working on this new trait-system that doesnt neccesarily bring any advantage. Remember, it is just easier to balance but that doesnt mean it will be balanced better. But you will, absolutely, lose flexibility in your builds. And potentially even lose out entirely on tapping into multiple traitlines, as you are pidgeonholed to spec 30/30/10. Thats the worst case scenario.

[DrakeWurrum]

That's simply ridiculous.
A "warrior" will never be a master of shield, bastard sword, long sword, 2 handed sword, hammer, 2 handed hammer, mace, 2 handed mace, pike, scythe,
crossbow, short bow, long bow, composite bow, composite yew bow...
That list could go on an on for pages.

Does a warrior have to be a warrior by mastering all of those disciplines? Of course not.

Equally ridiculous in the scope of being limited to 7 out of 60 traits, when what we're talking about is mastery of a trade.

In case this point is too vague, and you simply shrug it off as me being argumentative, I'm going to give you a specific example. The build I've linked numerous times already: http://www.gw2builds.org/view/364078/signet_attunement

What does that master?
It's not signets. There's signets and signet-related traits I did not choose, not to mention the fact that I have not the maximum potential Malice or Expertise available to an Elementalist.
It's not auras. I can only use Dagger/Dagger, and there's auras on other weapons. I also did not obtain the maximum amount of Concentration possible - then Expertise effects the Chilled from my water attunement aura, and I suspect Power and Malice affect the damage from Fiery Aura (it applies Burning!)
It's not attunements. There are attunement-related utility skills and traits I don't have, both major and minor (though the minor traits I lack hit me the hardest).
It's not pets or summons - I'm missing one potential summon glyph, as well as completely lacking glyph-related traits.
It's not the art of being a "boon bitch" since there are boon-related traits I do not have (ESPECIALLY Bountiful Power), not to mention lacking boon-applying skills from other weapon sets, not to mention (again) not having max Concentration, as well as lacking boon-giving utility skills that I have no room to slot. If I haven't mastered being a boon bitch, I definitely have not mastered the role of support.
It's not damage, or healing, or tanking, or controlling, or anything else that can possible be improved by attributes - I have not maximized my attributes.
I haven't even mastered daggers, simply because I lack the dagger-related trait to increase move speed.

This build has mastered NOTHING. This build, because of spreading points around, is a jack of all trades, but a master of NONE.
The sad truth? I cannot be said to master ANYTHING, even with a full-on 30/30/10 build, because no matter how I build, there will be 9 traits in both of the 30s that I did NOT pick, and minor traits in the other trait lines that I do NOT have access to, some of which WILL have an affect on the goal of my build, to the point that I could build completely different while having the exact same goal.


I could easily make similar arguments for every possible Warrior build that can be built from BWE1 - I'm just more familiar with Elementalist.

[Deleted]

5 days

waah

[Dodrin]

I think I can wrap my head around these trait tree changes. I too liked the idea of freeform specs varying form person to person, but in the end, there would be a "best" spec depending on what you wanted to do with the old system. That is where the illusion of choice comes in; yes you have access to wide variety of builds, but if you want to be a dual wield axe warrior/bow warrior who specializes in cleaves and AoE, there's only a few builds which fulfill this.

The new system also allows for an easier time balancing; I would guess Anet ran into problems trying to balance around classes having access to the "best" skills in every skill line, and using them in PvP. This is just conjecture, but I would imagine this was a problem they ran into. I may miss the old system, but at the end of the day, I wouldn't be suprised if this system led to a more fulfilling, balanced sense of play.

[Squirrelbanes]

I think my point was taken far too literally. Sorry for being obtuse.
All i meant was that mastery by its nature is exclusive. And that it's impossible to say you can master a profession by way of 1 set of criteria...just generally.
Can an artist be considered a master of all art forms because they've mastered oil paints? No. That was my simple point.

I was just saying I think that is what Anet wants to create with the traits masteries. Sure...can be seen as pigeon holing.

But also we don't have the big picture yet.
I personally did really like how traits worked before because it was similar in a way to GW1. You could make absurd builds there just for fun.
You must admit though that that they did give way to real workable builds most of the time.
Maybe they're just forcing our hand in this case?
I dunno until I can play around with it some more. And what we've seen is just a little snapshot.

[Deleted]

The new system also allows for an easier time balancing;.

Or maybe their intetion from the start , was to give us a <<free choice> , in order to see what cookie cutter specs , could be created from the players , and nerf-adjust them accordingly later on

[Fencers]

fencers any luck on a code?

Not yet. Could just have been the weekend. But I emailed my GL in any case.

Apologies, I was meaning this not as in respect to the actual automatic freebies, but more of a point of view of a new player as he gets skill points. <snipping>

Snipping for brevity.

Yea, that much is obvious. If what you say is true, and likely is, I really don't see why "elective mode" isn't a switchable option.

Kinda irksome I have to choose filler and PVP skills. Wasting, I would consider it a waste, skill points on things I have no intention of using. Seems like an insidious way to stretch out an already thin game as well.

Ah well. Wait & see.

[Delias]

I managed to get a week off of work starting thursday, so I have time to re-adjust my sleep schedule after I drink a very unhealthy amount of energy drinks.

[Fencers]

I probably will miss 2 days of BWE2 due to travel. Damn unacceptable.

Though I suppose only headstart is where it matters.

[Delias]

I probably will miss 2 days of BWE2 due to travel. Damn unacceptable.

Though I suppose only headstart is where it matters.

Indeed. I'm going to be quite disappointed when I'm forced to work during the headstart.
Then again, at that point it likely won't matter as much. It sounds strange, but since I'm not worried about rushing to level cap in this game when my play time isn't as limited as the BWE I don't think I'll mind as much.

[Fencers]

I don't like being "not max level" in MMOs. Have to reach the cap or it drives me crazy.

[Exedore]

I would appreciate it, after viewing your thoughts on this, that you give some thought to this question: Is the quoted portion (30/30/10 vs 20/20/20/10) really a bad thing?
And honestly want to know what you think of that. I want to know where's the harm in this.

Never said it was bad. I like that both and everything in between are viable. A 20/20/10/10/10 or 30/10/10/10/10 is going a bit too spread out, and I think that's something ArenaNet wanted to remedy.

I was not discouraged or encouraged either way, but for one factor: Attributes. When I spread out my traits too much, so too do I spread out my attributes. While gear would usually play a bigger impact than the +300 you could get from attributes, those 1-300 points are not negligible.

Something I overlooked. However, it's hard to say how meaningful those attributes will be at level 80. The gear for sPvP was bugged in BWE1. I equipped the crit amulet (800 to crit and about 300 to other stats) and my crit went up by about 30%. I tried an amulet with 800 to something else and crit as one of the secondary atrributes, and my crit chance barely budged.

I dont believe tiered traits automatically mean better balance. Lets look at other games that have "Tiered talents", and we see massive inbalance there aswell. So its not a recipe for instant succes, what it merely does is limit all possible combinations. And with less possible combinations there are less builds you have to balance.

It does help balancing among traits. I believe the ideal of the trait design was that none feel necessary and no traits at the same level (adept, master, grandmaster) feel more powerful than other. Just different. Balancing professions is a whole 'nother ball game. However, tiering traits gives ArenaNet an easier time of adjusting an overly powerful trait because it will be in the master or grandmaster level and not all builds will use it now.

They have to avoid the pittfall with this however, the risk of forcing people to pick BAD traits simply because they have to. Being forced to pick a filler, that you will never really use or benefit from just to advance deeper into the traitline.

Again, from looking at a calculator with the major traits numbered, there is no "bad" major trait slot along the way. It's good, just not as good as the one you wanted from the higher tier major trait. There are some bad traits to potentially choose, just like BWE1, but they can still be completely avoided. For example on Guardian, I wanted the "Meditations are instant" major trait. However, that's a master level. There was nothing else I wanted a lot from that line. With the new system, I still want "Meditations are instant", but I need to pick something else first. Turns out, I can pick "Meditations recharge 20% faster" in my adept tier, which helps my build. I just need to give up something in a different trait line.

And then there is still the act of balancing these "tiered traits" in their appropriate slots. Maybe they give the Necro a really powerfull trait they used before at first go. But a Mesmer sees his powerfull trait bumped 30pts into a traitline. And it might, break certain builds that people enjoyed playing.

Again, from looking at a calculator with numbered major traits, it's clear that ArenaNet already had the trait tiers in mind last BWE (at least from the perspective of Guardian and Warrior). XI and XII are definitely the best, with VII through X being more powerful than I through VI. This change will inevitably render certain builds impossible, but it won't render them useless. They just won't be as powerful as they were.

In case this point is too vague, and you simply shrug it off as me being argumentative, I'm going to give you a specific example. The build I've linked numerous times already: Signet Attunement

Assuming the major trait numbers stay the same, this build will be impossible in BWE2. I can't post links yet, but you can re-do your build at the gw2.luna-atra.fr site, which uses major trait numbers and see for yourself. Only your Arcane line would still work. Notice how in Air, Earth, and Water, you picked a Grandmaster major traits. Look at other builds that you've made within one profession and see if they do the same. My inclination is that they're all doing something similar, such that there is very little variety between any builds.

[Balfire]

I can already tell I won't like this trait system. I loved that A-Net was sticking close to its GW1 philosophy with a largely open skill system where you can get what you want when you want it. With a large variety of builds.

I don't like being limited especially when I previously wasn't.

[Exroyal]

Soo....anyone know how to acquire those red legendary weapons ?