Affliction confusion! Shadow embrace? Omigod why...

[Deleted]

Yay, another patch, another "halp please" topic from me. So, I've been hearing that Affliction is now THE spec to play. I've been rolling Destro since Cata came out and I'm comfortable in it. ISF in any form doesn't put me off, it never did (loved the haste ), 2-target BoH-Immo-Corr is a cake.

But.

Since I should reroll.

Tell me, oh tell me, how the hell am I supposed to deal with this goddamn 3-stack buff that lasts about as long as Haunt's CD (I know it's a bit longer, but it's not THAT much longer)? And even better! How to manage it in DL spec? And the 5% crit buff? Aaand all that?

Say, help me on the example. Today we were joyously wiping at Nefarian (got him to 40% on 3 or so tries then our 2 guildmates went to sleep due to grand exam tomorrow so I know how the fight looks till that point). I was in Destro as I really don't feel anything near 'sufficient' in Affliction atm.

As Destro, I put focus on Ony, BoH'd her once tank was fine on Nef and then proceeded with normal rotation on Nefarian while casting macro'ed Corruption and Immolate on Onyxia if they fell off. Got around 18-19k DPS that way (how much should I get btw? Gear's pretty much full epic, gemmed, enchanted, 4pc set that most never procs... - wand from ZG being the only weaker item, got Arcane mage for focus buff but no Ele shammys or other locks).

Easy. But then I think Affliction and?

Assuming I take SB spec...

I do my rotation on Nefarian and what do I do with Onyxia? Corruption, BoA? What about the Shadow Embrace? Should I keep 3 stacks there? HOW should I do it if I'm not supposed to actively DPS her but still DPSing her (alike in destro) helps a ton? What do I do with double target? SBs are such slow casts they're not even funny.

So I thought - DL maybe? My latency is nice (don't know how much exactly but when it's over 50 I'm frowning). But what about Shadow Embrace here? Even on single target, I sometimes have it fall off if I miss Haunting for whatever reason (moving?). I guess I do have to spec into this talent, but it confuses me so. And what here with the 5% crit debuff on the mob? I guess I should keep it up at all times so nightfall procs alone aren't really dependable?

And the execute phase - I know I should be using Drain Soul. But what else? Should I just spam it and have no care in the world for other DoTs, Haunt etc? Or should I just replace SB/DL with it?

Why do people say Affliction is easier than Destro? D:< Destro is like a warm, fuzzy bear that's completely obvious and understandable to me while Affliction seems like a total "OMG THOSE STACKS ARE FALLING OFF IN HALF A SECOND AND IM GUNNA HAVE TO STACK ALL THREE OF THEM AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN QQ STUPID GCD CAN'T CLICK HAUNT" mess.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...89cho/advanced

My armory, feel free to cringe at the spec if you will. I don't really know what the difference between DL filler and SB filler spec is aside of points in Bane. Even on the dummy my Aff DPS is lower than my Destro DPS. I've but one conclusion so far: I suck at sucking. How sucky is that?

Halp.

[Deleted]

Uh, its not hard to play affli so just spec it and practise short while. You can stay destro but all of our 3 specs and useful in different fights and you should know how to play them all.

[Uggorthaholy]

Uh, its not hard to play affli so just spec it and practise short while. You can stay destro but all of our 3 specs and useful in different fights and you should know how to play them all.

Thank you for not answering any of the OT's questions. Excellent advice.

OT: I cannot say for sure, as I haven't yet had my lock hit 85. I'll leave that to the other, more experienced locks on the matter

Good luck, affliction requires a lot more awareness and presence.

[moakler]

its really not that hard.

haunt refreshes your stacks and you should be casting it on CD because of its damage per cast time, so once you initially get 3 stacks of shadow embrace up(you should be starting off with a sbolt in the beginning) it really becomes easy to keep your stacks up. if you happen your lose your stacks mid fight just shadowbolt and haunt to get them back up.

with multiple targets just soul swap between them with the glyph, make sure you pay attention to onyxia's health so that you dont premmaturely push it.

for execute phase replace drain soul while keeping up all dots and haunt, corruption will refresh with haunt and UA will refresh with DS, so you just need to haunt and bod(or boa for multiple targets)

[amiolas]

If you don't have something that lets you track your dots, like xperl's "make my dots big on my target," get it and dots will be a lot easier to track.

I wouldn't recommend the drain life spec, to be honest. Unless you have a flawless internet connection you will almost always clip at least a couple of ticks for drain life.

With that being said, my normal rotation goes something like this:

Curse of the elements
Bane of Doom
Corruption
Unstable affliction
Haunt
SB SB SB SB
Shadow flame if I'm close enough
fel flame if set bonus procs
refresh accordingly
Demon soul at 35% or if I forget at 35 %, I use it at 25% for drain soul buff damage.
Drain soul at 25% down while refreshing dots accordingly.

Since you'll be casting SB all the time, your Shadow embrace should have practically 100% up-time with haunt and shadow bolt.

As for fights with more than one "boss", that is where GLYPHED Soul Swap earns my love. If there are at least two "bosses" or more, and you plan to soul swap, use bane of agony since only one BoD can be on one target.

What I do on a normal fight, like say, nefarian and onyxia; I put all my dots up on nefarian, soul swap, onyxia, and just keep doing my normal rotation on nefarian. Then whenever soul swap is on cool down, I use it and pop it back on onyxia. If you keep a solid rotation of soul swap, your dots on onyxia shouldn't run out by the next soul swap (except maybe UA as short as it is). If I get a nightfall proc, I usually send it over to onyxia to get the 5% crit for a little bit, and I usually don't bother with shadow embrace x3 on two targets, it ends up feeling like too much work and my dps is lower to be constantly switching back and forth to keep up a 15% damage increase for dots.

Your spec looks fine, I personally don't get CoEx, I get full jinx, other than that it looks pretty solid.

Once they introduced the 15 second buff after casting soulfire is really where I started to dislike destro, I always hated having to hard cast soul fire, only to have my imp proc a instant one practically RIGHT after I launched my hard casted one. Irritated me.

Hope this info was helpful!

[Uggorthaholy]

I wouldn't recommend the drain life spec, to be honest. Unless you have a flawless internet connection you will almost always clip at least a couple of ticks for drain life. .

this is no longer true - it is treated like a dot/hot now - no more clipping as long as you are between ticks 2 and 3

[Deleted]

It was, thank you!

Yet, more questions still...

1. How big is the difference between SB and DL? My internet connection is good so I was actually considering trying it if it was worth it (helps in a lot of fights to regenerate more HP aside of DPS).
2. If I were to go for DL filler - what do I need to change in my spec? And should I use some macro not to clip the casts? How to manage it?
3. I've seen somewhere that pets actually die an awful lot without fel synergy now. I use this talent as Destro and my imp doesn't die a lot, it might be due to that. Afaik in cookie cutter SB spec (that I haven't found yet :P Link please?) there's no place for that talent. Won't this be troublesome?
4. How is warlock DPS overall in comparison to other classes now? Stateofdps doesn't seem to be updated yet as Destruction topped Affliction there still last time I checked. How big is the difference between Aff and Destro really? Not in sims.
5. Should I reforge/gem to different stats in Affliction than Destro or do they stay the same?

Thanks again <3

[roahn the warlock]

Use drain life, simple as that, you want to keep doom, corruption, UZ and haunt up. fill with drain life, but cut it short for a instant SB or to refresh a dot, in addition keep haunt up when ever you can, go by its spell not it's dot

[Migage]

Just quickly, if you're looking at progression and have no one bringing 10% SP buff, why be aff or destro for a mere 1-2k selfish dps gain, when the WHOLE raid will benefit soooo much more if you went demo. All sp classes will easily out-do the 1-2k dps you'd "lose" by going demo and the healers will all be healing more, saving them mana, helping you progress further into fights. As it looks like you're doing 10-mans, like myself, I see no other option than to be demo if you are truly looking at raid progression. Yes yes, play the spec you enjoy the most, but it sounds like you're readily willing to swap and learn between the specs anyway. Lucky for me I've been playing demo since early wotlk and I do enjoy it; you could probably go aff for epeen BH fights, but even then, it's possible to shock quite a lot of people as demo.

[rethea]

1. How big is the difference between SB and DL? My internet connection is good so I was actually considering trying it if it was worth it (helps in a lot of fights to regenerate more HP aside of DPS).

EJ says 150 ms is the cut off.

[Deleted]

@ Migage

I hate demonology because it has such slow, long casts. That's definitely not for me, I was one of the ragers when they removed the old ISF. Either way, I'm top DPS in my guild as of now and hence that's what they expect of me - DPS. Healers are doing fine

~

I respecced into the DL spec (I *think* I found a cookie cutter though I'm not happy about 1/2 pandemic - what about UA in execute phase?). And then I went to a dummy.

Single target, I *slowly* got to 15k stable DPS. It took me long. It might've been because of my failing at first with managing spells, I don't know. But it took way too long for an actual boss encounter :P 5 minutes or so.

Then I tried to take on 2 vicious dummies at once. CHAOS. But once chaos settled, I managed to get stable 17,5k DPS, then after popping Doomguard I got to 18-19k and stayed somewhere in the bounds. Even though it didn't show immediately after popping the felguard - no grand DPS gain, I'm not sure if it would fall back down or not, I think I've poked the dummy for 3-4 minutes after it died.

It seems that the longer I dummy the bigger the DPS gets, slowly but surely :P Not too awesome for actual raiding though xD

I had DI on my puppy. I still had a leftover Draconic Mind flask from earlier raid. Didn't bother stacking anything on the other dummy, just kept CoE and SSd Corr, UA and BoA to it.

Is this the DPS I should be getting on a stand-up-watch-the-timers-only dummy fight? Or am I failing there still? Numbered questions from my post above still stand too. Gotta keep you guys busy with some noobbery every now and then ;3

Good night!

[nilnar]

You can't keep SE up on two targets with DL spec. This is why SB is better than DL.

[Entropic]

@ Migage

I hate demonology because it has such slow, long casts. That's definitely not for me, I was one of the ragers when they removed the old ISF. Either way, I'm top DPS in my guild as of now and hence that's what they expect of me - DPS. Healers are doing fine

~

I respecced into the DL spec (I *think* I found a cookie cutter though I'm not happy about 1/2 pandemic - what about UA in execute phase?). And then I went to a dummy.

Single target, I *slowly* got to 15k stable DPS. It took me long. It might've been because of my failing at first with managing spells, I don't know. But it took way too long for an actual boss encounter :P 5 minutes or so.

Then I tried to take on 2 vicious dummies at once. CHAOS. But once chaos settled, I managed to get stable 17,5k DPS, then after popping Doomguard I got to 18-19k and stayed somewhere in the bounds. Even though it didn't show immediately after popping the felguard - no grand DPS gain, I'm not sure if it would fall back down or not, I think I've poked the dummy for 3-4 minutes after it died.

It seems that the longer I dummy the bigger the DPS gets, slowly but surely :P Not too awesome for actual raiding though xD

I had DI on my puppy. I still had a leftover Draconic Mind flask from earlier raid. Didn't bother stacking anything on the other dummy, just kept CoE and SSd Corr, UA and BoA to it.

Is this the DPS I should be getting on a stand-up-watch-the-timers-only dummy fight? Or am I failing there still? Numbered questions from my post above still stand too. Gotta keep you guys busy with some noobbery every now and then ;3

Good night!

Yes, your spec is fine. Testing Affliction on dummies isn't going to give you a real indicator of your DPS because Death's Embrace kicks in at >25% and obviously your execute phase is also at >25%. Yes, the long you DPS the higher Affliction will get, it takes time to build up. Currently Affliction is ahead of Destro single target by ~1.6k dps. This is a large amount yes, but this is strictly for single target, i.e. Chimaeron and Atramedes.

The 1/2 in pandemic will not affect UA in execute phase unless you get very unlucky RNG, which probably means the RNG Gods hate you. You're better off as Destro for multi targetting fights due to Bane of Havoc's mechanics i.e. Magmaw and ODS, but the exception may be V&T, it depends on how well you multi dot and you won't be able to get off SEx3 on the off target unless you're SB Afflic. There should be a no clip DL macro stickied somewhere in these forums.

The solution to your SEx3 problem is to just cast Haunt whenever it is off CD, yes this means clipping DL. You should have a 12% chance to proc instant SB's and you should be precasting SB before the pull so you can get SEx2 up right away. The next stack of SE should come up within a few seconds, this is only a minor DPS loss.

[kardacz]

What about the Shadow Embrace? Should I keep 3 stacks there? HOW should I do it if I'm not supposed to actively DPS her but still DPSing her (alike in destro) helps a ton? What do I do with double target? SBs are such slow casts they're not even funny.

I usually don't bother with shadow embrace x3 on two targets, it ends up feeling like too much work and my dps is lower to be constantly switching back and forth to keep up a 15% damage increase for dots.

Target Nef, focus Ony, use a focus modifier for all of your offensive spells, can be the one from the interface options. Say you picked "alt", shadow bolt is R, focus shadow bolt is alt+R (same thing applies to dots), do a normal rotation on Nef, soul swap dots to Ony, then use 3 focus shadow bolts to get SE to 3 stack on her. After that each 2nd or 3rd shadow bolt will be a focus shadow bolt to keep the 3 stacks up and running, while using soul swap each cooldown. When it drops off cause you had to move w/e just reaply it to 3 stacks again.
Not that much effort but a significant dps increase.

Drain Afii is a single target spec, Bolt Affi is for 2+ target fights. That's the rule.

[Deleted]

That clears things up a bit, thanks a lot. But leaves a question still:

In Nefarian's fight, Onyxia is only present during the first phase that is definitely shorter than 3rd phase where Nefarian is alone. Which spec is a better choice to use there? AffDrain or Destro? Or would AffSB be much better than Destro (so gonna go bancrupt on these respecs...).

On Chogall, there are adds that Affliction could deal with nicely with SB:SoC and Jinx, there also is an important execute phase where draining life could be an ass saver. But Destro could probably nuke the tentacles faster and that's also very important. Which of these works better for that fight?

Other fights I heal at anyway so w/e but these I'd like to know which spec performs better at

[Defai]

Aff drain does not work for multi-target fights. I just use a different one, I dont have mana feed, and 2 points in bane for shadow bolts, but otherwise drain life often anyway. Best way to keep up two Shadow's Embrace, simple. Focus Macro. Heres how it works:

Begin fight, open on onyxia, dot it up, get the stacks up.
Nef comes down, if you are on onyxia instead of nef, focus nef, vice versa if you are on nef. Soul swap FROM onyxia. (Ill use nef as prim target)
Exhale onto nef, make sure your focus is onyxia, begin stacking SE back up. Once your stacks on nef are up. You need a second focus macro, you should also have Soul Swap: Exhale, to release on your focus macro, as well as a normal Soul Swap keybind for non focus soul swaps.
This second focus macro, casts shadow bolts at your FOCUS. Do it only when Haunt is on cooldown, the SE on your primary target is not in danger of falling off(<5seconds) and just keep soul swapping onto your focus, effectively being able to keep up TWO sets of SE on two targets rather well. So long as you position yourself well. (To do that just stand in range so the exhale can reach, and make sure you are facing both targets at once, which isn't even an issue usually)

Oh and shadow trance's are usually used for my focus target or primary, depending on the time remaining. You'll have to use your own judgement for those. Also, there are adds during P2, dont forget that, do this as well during that phase.

[god of lock and pala]

i keep shadows embrace up easily with drain life link! shadow bolts give stack too u know ???

and i just fire off a ocational SB when my haunt is not off cd or im dotting other mobs or somthing else. really easy, and with shadow bolt spec it should be cake.

and well... for me ive always preffered affli over the other specs and did it better than the other spec even though destro was suposed to be better.

but affli is really fun, especially the drain life spec :P but need good connection to play that since of the ticks come late and if u spent too long time not casting coz of high MS u loose dps, coz u cant just spam DL like u can spam SB coz u gotta time it so u dont loose ticks

[Defai]

i keep shadows embrace up easily with drain life link! shadow bolts give stack too u know ???

and i just fire off a ocational SB when my haunt is not off cd or im dotting other mobs or somthing else. really easy, and with shadow bolt spec it should be cake.

and well... for me ive always preffered affli over the other specs and did it better than the other spec even though destro was suposed to be better.

but affli is really fun, especially the drain life spec :P but need good connection to play that since of the ticks come late and if u spent too long time not casting coz of high MS u loose dps, coz u cant just spam DL like u can spam SB coz u gotta time it so u dont loose ticks

Actually I heard that they hotfixed drain life, and priests mindflay(?) so that if you clip it before the tick, the 'tick' carries over into your next cast or something like that sort, as in it will continue to count down from the original count of your clip, if that makes sense. Kinda like refreshing dots, the tick you clipped carries over. Example:

You cast DL, 2.5s channel, a tick was supposed to happen at .5s, but you clipped it at .8, .3s too soon and began a new DL.
This next DL has the usual 2.5s cast(not fully sure of this) but after .3s, it ticks, instead of normally(not really, for this explanational purpose) at .5s intervals. So it would end up ticking at 2.2, 1.7, 1.2, .7
Again im not sure if this is how it works, someone may just want to test this out for themselves, but thats the gist of what ive read about in a recent hotfix that has been circulating for a little bit. If its true, then you can clip safely without worrying about clipping much, and still pull of a constant stream of ticks, like your dots with DL.

EDIT: Btw, pretty sure Drain Life does not keep up Shadow's Embrace whatsoever.

[Deleted]

A bit off-topic but it was mentioned here before - should one be hitting Nefarian in phase 2 as well? We didn't do that due to electrocutes, but I wouldn't know if that's the right way to go :P

[Falconys]

Drain Life does not proc Shadow Embrace.

Anyway, as a new Affliction player I recommend using Shadow Bolt rather than Drain Life for 2 main reasons. For one, the casting priority will feel a lot more like Destro to you once you actually raid with it. For the other, SB spec makes it easier to maintain your buffs and debuffs, and worrying less about fluff will give you more time to focus on the fight. For secondary targets I suggest using Soul Swap to throw your dots on the second target (SS:inhale, new target, Shadow Bolt, SS:exhale, back to main target) while haunt is on cooldown, and do it every 2o seconds or so. If there is no second target use Bane of Doom instead of Bane of Agony. Just focus on keeping SE3 and S&F on your main target before worrying about a second one. Treat Haunt like you would Conflagarate, in that you want to fire it as soon as its available rather than waiting.

Once you get comfortable with Aff/SB (31/4/6) you can go back to working on Aff/DL (31/7/3)if you want, but for 10man raiding in particular I recommend Aff/SB.

Remember: only a fire mage can duplicate Shadow and Flame, it takes Arcane Brilliance and MP5 totem or Blessing of Might to duplicate Fel Intellect, and only an elemental shaman can duplicate Demonic Pact.

Ultimately, don't be affraid to go back to your "warm and comfy" destruction spec because in the grand scheme of things being at the top of your game is more than enough to overcome the 6.5% difference in the simulations.