[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Thekri]

Cersei is way too proud to make such a deal. and yeah i totally misread his post lol

Maybe. She is smart enough to want two dragons on her side rather then against her. She could force Dany to give up claim to the throne, and give Dany some character development by actually agreeing to it, thus sacrificing the thing she wants most for the good of the kingdom. Of course they don't have to tell Cersei that Jon has an even stronger claim. It would be massively more interesting then what we actually got.

[Jastall]

because they were cocky and weren't expecting it? also, the library was basically silent - outside in the garden was not. and maybe the wights have good hearing but the white walkers don't?

The Walkers control the Wights directly, and the latter do not seem to have to wait for a command before jumping on any nearby living.

The gardens kind of were dead silent anyway. Nobody alive remained, only Wights which can be still as stone if given the command. It's a poorly shot section that raises too many questions for its own good. Any scene that requires such prodigious amounts of handwaves is not a good scene.

[Thekri]

The Walkers control the Wights directly, and the latter do not seem to have to wait for a command before jumping on any nearby living.

The gardens kind of were dead silent anyway. Nobody alive remained, only Wights which can be still as stone if given the command. It's a poorly shot section that raises too many questions for its own good. Any scene that requires such prodigious amounts of handwaves is not a good scene.

So I haven't really weighed in on the realism of that scene, although that seems to be almost all the talk on here, I mostly object to it in a literary sense. As far as the scene itself, I am not particularly bothered by it. Yes it is highly questionable that Arya could have gotten that close, but she has been established as a character that at least knows something about stealth, so it doesn't take too much handwaving. I am not saying it was a well shot scene, but it was a more minor problem them most of them in this episode in my opinion.

Something they clearly never did when shooting out the episode was just map out where each character was at each point. In fact basic map tracking is something they haven't done for at least three seasons, because the locations of characters never make any sense. Arya appearing out of thin air is just an extension of that bigger problem.

This episode is a perfect example. There were more then a dozen major characters outside the walls when the battle started. All of them were in the very first rank of the army. This is purely rule of cool, because the idea of putting all your command staff on the first rank when you are about to get hit by a literal wall of zombies is insane. Still, the only character that dies outside the wall is Dolorous Edd. Every single other one somehow winds up in the castle after abandoning their entire commands. Jorah is by far the worst example here. He leads a charge of the dothraki (WTF? why is he commanding them?), then bails on them and comes running back. Then he runs back inside the castle, and is in there when the night king walks in the front door. Then Dany falls off her dragon (After she decides landing in the middle of the zombie army is a good idea), and Jorah appears out of nowhere to save her and die heroically. I find Jorah's pathing to be way more suspect then Aryas, which is also pretty weird.

[IIamaKing]

sorry but that makes zero sense. it has long been established that all they want is to kill everyone. they aren't going to make deals, or anything like that. the only way to beat them was to kill the Night King which they did

Not sure what this has to do with what I said.

[Dacien]

Jorah is by far the worst example here. He leads a charge of the dothraki (WTF? why is he commanding them?)

I thought it made sense. He has a strong command of their culture, their language, and their history. It was either him or just let them do whatever they wanted with their own self-chosen leader. Which obviously won't work.

[Thekri]

I thought it made sense. He has a strong command of their culture, their language, and their history. It was either him or just let them do whatever they wanted with their own self-chosen leader. Which obviously won't work.

Why not? Dany had some strong Dothraki bloodriders that led effectively before. The real problem was only that they never bothered giving any character development to any of the Dothraki in this second group. And in GoT, literally nobody that isn't a named character ever does anything. Seriously, nothing at all. Main characters have to do absolutely everything, the other 100,000+ people only exist for the wide shots.

[IIamaKing]

Cersei is way too proud to make such a deal. and yeah i totally misread his post lol

Ah, no worries. I think it would have been interesting. If a ragtag group of Northerners like 500-10o0 deep show up past the Twins and send a raven saying "The North is lost, the dead March south" I think we'd have some accord. I mean at that point the Metal chair would be 100% meaningless if you want to still be breathing. Have Dany and or Jon completely broken saying,"I dont care what it takes but we have to fight together". Then the remains of the 7 kingdoms give a dire push for survival.

[Jastall]

I thought it made sense. He has a strong command of their culture, their language, and their history. It was either him or just let them do whatever they wanted with their own self-chosen leader. Which obviously won't work.

Given the absolutely braindead charge that Jorah apparently led, leaving the Dothraki to their own devices might have been a better idea...

[Nellise]

Given the absolutely braindead charge that Jorah apparently led, leaving the Dothraki to their own devices might have been a better idea...

That just killed the whole episode for me (not that much that happened later was a lot better). They know the NK can make the dead come back to life, so wouldn't your whole plan be to let as few people die as possible? Then they send off a small force into pitch dark against an army they know is much bigger with no scouting or support. Like who would suggest that and then they all say "sounds good"?

[Dacien]

Ah, there it is, the real watching party reaction. The one that echoed my own reaction.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthron...urlington_bar/

[MrLachyG]

Ah, no worries. I think it would have been interesting. If a ragtag group of Northerners like 500-10o0 deep show up past the Twins and send a raven saying "The North is lost, the dead March south" I think we'd have some accord. I mean at that point the Metal chair would be 100% meaningless if you want to still be breathing. Have Dany and or Jon completely broken saying,"I dont care what it takes but we have to fight together". Then the remains of the 7 kingdoms give a dire push for survival.

that would definitely have been an interesting scenario. I still reckon Cersei would've thumbed her nose at them though.

- - - Updated - - -

Given the absolutely braindead charge that Jorah apparently led, leaving the Dothraki to their own devices might have been a better idea...

yeah in all time military blunders that has to be up there. overconfidence maybe?

[Logwyn]

In snow? While sprinting fast enough to make a Walker's hair move? Right before jumping into the air at twice her height?

I really don't know why they establish shit like Wights having super hearing, only to disregard that ability thirty minutes after when it's plot inconvenient. There is no universe where that is good writing, it just reeks of gratuitous inconsistency.

Maybe the wights were just being told to stand there. So the Night King could kill Bran/Three-Eyed Raven. No one told them to move so they did not. They didn't move when Theron went running at the Night King either.

[Jastall]

That just killed the whole episode for me (not that much that happened later was a lot better). They know the NK can make the dead come back to life, so wouldn't your whole plan be to let as few people die as possible? Then they send off a small force into pitch dark against an army they know is much bigger with no scouting or support. Like who would suggest that and then they all say "sounds good"?

Or not having a single Valyrian Steel blade near Bran when it's well established as the best way to kill Walkers. Or when the archers just stop firing at the Wights for the several minutes that the fiery trench stops them. Or when the Unsullied, the most disciplined and unbreakable infantry, are sacrificed outside the walls for no reason. One could go on for hours; the tactics on display were just appalling from beginning to end. The humans really deserved to lose that one. It felt less like they were fighting an overwhelming force (like in Hardhome) and more that they decided to yolo it because strategy is for losers.

I still can't resist mentioning the trebuchets being positioned in front of the infantry again, and firing only once during the entire battle. That sounds like the kind of shit you do when you hastily set up your army in a Total War game and end up forgetting your siege engines.

[tromage2]

Can somebody explain to me why they protect Brann?.
Brann is the worst character of any tv show or movie.
He is emotionless sitting in a chair doing nothing other then poop on the Night King troops with the ravens he controls.

He had the worging ability before the three eyed raven thing and would actually be doing stuff in this battle.
Now he is pointless, his whole trip of becoming the raven was useless.

[uopayroll]

if you say so. i didnt think it was awesome, i thought it was a huge waste of the dothraki army that has been built up since literally episode one.

If you notice the faces of the Dothraki when they finally reached the horde of undead, it was an "oh shit" look that this is not the usual pushover they have been used to since before episode one. My first thought was they ran into a wall of giants, but we only ever really saw the one.

[NihilSustinet]

If you notice the faces of the Dothraki when they finally reached the horde of undead, it was an "oh shit" look that this is not the usual pushover they have been used to since before episode one. My first thought was they ran into a wall of giants, but we only ever really saw the one.

i mean, im sure they did say "oh shit" right before they died. doesnt mean the charge itself wasnt fucking retarded.

[uopayroll]

i mean, im sure they did say "oh shit" right before they died. doesnt mean the charge itself wasnt fucking retarded.

Up until that point, it was not retarded based on how the Dothraki/everybody thought and were built up by the show

[Wilian]

Lol the salt, "oh noes my hero jon didn't kill nk"

Please point out the part of my post where I mentioned wanting Jon Snow to do doing anything?

[HavokHeart]

If you notice the faces of the Dothraki when they finally reached the horde of undead, it was an "oh shit" look that this is not the usual pushover they have been used to since before episode one. My first thought was they ran into a wall of giants, but we only ever really saw the one.

The lighting was so bad I couldn't see if there were more giants.. or their faces

[NihilSustinet]

Up until that point, it was not retarded based on how the Dothraki/everybody thought and were built up by the show

sorry but no. charging into an enemy that you cannot see, but you know has massive numbers, has a dragon, has giants, and can also resurrect you and bring you to their side. its fucking retarded. like ive mentioned earlier in the thread, they should have been a skirmishing and/or flanking force. an outright charge against that sort of enemy was something jon would know better than, and id assume they would listen when dany told them how to engage.