[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[crono14]

Yeah, that's fucking dumb, because she had just won the Red Keep, because the bells were ringing. She could have walked into it at that point and arrested Cersei. I guess Missandei was the most important character in this universe, as it made both Grey Worm and Dany go fucking mental.

The Dany-going-mad storyline is inevitable, but man, was it shittily executed. The whole point is to make it a borderline case, like the Tarlys, so that when Jon inevitably has to kill her for the private insanity he witnesses day to day, it mirrors Jaime and Aerys. And then the cycle starts over again.


Jesus.

It wasn't just Missandei. Everyone of her advisors or so she thinks has betrayed her. Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Jorah(at some point). Tyrion was begging her to accept surrender, and she didn't anyway. She said she was going to break the wheel and she very much did albeit with genocide. The foreshadowing with a flip of the coin every time a Targaryen is born is meant to mirror both Jon/Dany. They are both sides of the same coin but had wildly different upbringings and tribulations. The decisions they made during those times I believe is what the story is all about. Not only the decisions they make, but also when shit went crazy the Northmen are rapists and bad guys when they are supposed to be the 'good' guys. Humans are terrible to one another.

We really needed a much longer series and better writing to really pay off Dany's storyline and descent into madness like Two-face. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the enemy. It felt rushed cause it happened so quickly in these episodes, when really they have been sprinkling hints throughout the seasons. Not defending the writing, but it's going to happen in the books too, just fleshed out more and hopefully better written.

[Prokne]

No. If she started her reign by burning innocent people in a city that had already surrendered, she would never get anything done without killing everyone that even looks at her sideways. That is the entire reason that Tywin orchestrating the Red Wedding was such a disaster in the end for him and his house. If you kill your enemies when they surrender or kill them while they should by all rights be under diplomatic immunity (guest rights) nobody will trust you or any government that you are part of.

And if she just fled to Essos there would be so many assassins sent after her ass that she could never rest.

You know, Alexander the Great destroyed Thebes and sold all the survivors into slavery, then went on to fight on another continent and none of the remaining Greek cities revolted against him. Thebes was one of the two most significant cities in Alexander's kingdom. He later dies from alcoholism and/or a foreign illness contracted in India.

Anyway, I'm sure people would want to kill Dany because she did some bad things, but that doesn't mean that they will succeed or that it would really affect her significantly. Having a large number of loyal soldiers and friendly followers (although in another continent) would provide a lot of security in the real world. She can even fly on dragon wherever she wants fairly quickly if she needs to project power in a place that is far away.

For a 20th century example, Stalin killed millions of his own people and ruled by fear for 30 years. He was super paranoid, but no one killed him.

[Mehrunes]

The "already finished" theory floating around is hard to buy. If the books were finished this would haven't ended exactly like that maze picture someone posted above. I think he knew where things were going, shared it with the creators, and that actor is confused.

Someone invested enough into their work to carefully spot and break as many expectations as he has seems like they care about quality. Is this how he wants his work to be remembered? We'll see of course, who really knows.

Maybe he saw what D&D did to Dorne and realized that without his guidance they will fuck up the rest of the show so hard that if he waits with releasing the books after the show ends he will have bajillion disappointed show watchers that never read his books ready to pick them up in hopes of something better on top of the current reader base.

[lonely zergling]

Bran can't sit on the Iron Throne. The Throne has stairs...

There is no throne. Drogon burns it down. Its a council. Remember the council in past seasons? Thats how its going to be.

[Snuffe]

Man Season 1-4 was fucking awesome, masterpiece!.

season 5-7 meh hmm well its good but not how it was.

Season 8: ok fellas lets skip everything that happend season 1-7 and lets do this!!!Fuck the books, fuck common logic, it's bollywood time!

Anyway i think dranarys skipped 12 levels in the Insanity tree and went to max points in 5 minuts. Yes she was meant to become mad but!, No one becomes crazy like that, not after everything that have happended season 1-7. Yeah she lost 2 of her dragons, and her closest friend and advisor..but haha really? thats nothing!!. This was war! the rest of the cast/the freaking world had lost more than her. You just dont become that crazy in one episode after everything and kill 238643673469 innocents.

The writing this season...did they hire Michael Bay??

Did they have meetings to discuss this? i mean its bad! holy smoke it's bad! did no one say in those meetings "hmm guys how much did you drink last night before you wrote this?.

yes the effects was beautifuly done, some people will think it was cool all "Action fuck yee!".. this season makes no sense...garbage writing, this was the worlds most famous seriers and they butchered it, pretty much shows that they did not amount to much when they did not have any books to follow anymore.

I loved this show, thats why im ranting so much.

[Prokne]

Anyone else have a problem with the dragon fire? It was like it had a mass like it was spraying with lava instead of fire. You can't knock down a build with fire. You can burn it down but fire itself has no weight.

And if dragon fire does have mass, that means Drogon would've gotten a lot lighter as the battle went on.

It's a small gripe but it was something I couldn't help but notice.

I think for a lot of us that's the problem with the show, you're always thinking about the inconsistencies and not what is going on.

It isn't explained, but dragonfire could be like igniting a gas or fuel. If you've ever seen a hydrogen balloon explode, it floats and creates a big shockwave relative to its weight. Explosives weight much less than the things they destroy because they create force by rapid acceleration.

It looks like the dragons spew out some kind of liquid that ignites, so I would think they have a finite amount of it and have to rest at some time to build up more. They would lose weight after using a lot of it in a short amount of time if it was a liquid.

[crono14]

I'm not mad that Grey Worm commanded the unsullied to butcher the Lannister army. I'm not mad that Daenerys burned the Red Keep (And killed a bunch of civilians in the process).

I'm mad that Daenerys burned the entire city when it was completely out of character for her to do such a thing. I figured she'd do something like massacre the Lannister army after they surrendered, or burn the red keep while not really caring that civilians die (cause collateral damage). But instead they make her target innocent civilians out of absolutely no where when it is completely against everything she believes.


She went from good girl to literally more evil than Darth Vader in about... 0.2 seconds. Darth Vader still had some morals, but apparently Daeny suddenly does not. That is entirely out of character and bad writing.

I figured she'd go completely mad queen at some point and behave like a tyrant, but not actually butcher innocents with dragon fire.

It's not really out of character for her if you have been paying attention the whole series. She has always stuggled with her lineage and determined not to be her father. They have sprinkled hints of her madness throughout the series. Sure it was very rushed because of only 8 seasons and only 6 episodes, but I thought it was ok since that was where her arc was going. It's going to be the same way in the books just thoroughly fleshed out and better written. It was not only Missandei's death but everyone around her has betrayed her, people she loved are dead or don't love her back. No one in westeros loves her, she only has fear to rule with. People only see her as her father and now for sure. Her most trusted and loyal advisor was brutally murdered before her eyes whose last words was burn then all essentially. Her one last shot at mercy and she didn't take it. She will rule with fear which means burning everyone to her.

Not defending the writing, but it makes sense. There have been so many worse people in our own history who committed similar atrocities. GRRM is showing how horrible human beings really are with his story. The supposed northmen good guys resorted to raping and butchering innocent people just as much as Dany burned the city to the ground.

[Prokne]

I think my point has been made for me if we start comparing Daenarys to Stalin.

As long as your point wasn't that she couldn't successfully rule that way because she can and people have.

BTW Stalin was also not crazy or mad, just ruthless, brutal and evil. He was a criminal and a thug before joining the communists and knew that he could gain and keep power by being feared. It also wasn't insanity that he was paranoid because there were people who wanted to kill him.

[Ihavewaffles]

As long as your point wasn't that she couldn't successfully rule that way because she can and people have.

BTW Stalin was also not crazy or mad, just ruthless, brutal and evil. He was a criminal and a thug before joining the communists and knew that he could gain and keep power by being feared. It also wasn't insanity that he was paranoid because there were people who wanted to kill him.

People want to say danny is mad, so they can think themselves clever for their 'discovery' so any ruthless action she does is 'madness' but not when others (Tywin Lannister) do them..

[Jastall]

Indeed. Yet, she did, staying true to her character that her fans failed to understand. Daenarys was always going to go mad. Targaryans are that way.

One Targaryen we know of in the show was that way, Aerys who was madder than any of them. I dunno if the show retcons such things, but in the books the actual number of Targaryens mad enough to start such indiscriminate slaughter can IMO be counted on one hand: Maegor the Cruel, Aerys himself, Aerion Brightflame perhaps and that's a long shot, and that's more or less it apart from Dany who may or may not burn KL in the books. The rest of them had their boatloads of flaws for sure, such as Aegon the Unworthy or Baelor the Blessed, but what we saw went far beyond the in-lore aspects of Targaryen madness.

Plus, I don't like to use "lol she was emotional guise" as an excuse to villain bat a character to such an extent. It was stupid when they seemingly had Sylvanas burn Teldrassil because some dying Night Elf gave her lip, and it's stupid there when they excuse Dany nuking half a million people with "she was sad she wasn't loved ".

[crono14]

Going from Breaker of Chains to Killer of Civilians

Full fucking retard by the show writers.

No matter how you spin it, it is not Dany-like.

It felt so contrived, so forced.

If you go back to the older seasons, you'd see she empathized strongly with the plight of plebeians suffering under various masters. She even empowered Missandei (yes, she could interpret but she was a slave).

now you're going to go and kill stuff ... just because?

Even a few minutes before hand, she says "I am not loved here, I am feared." You'd think you'd want to develop a reason to be loved, no?

The excuse of "Mad Targaryen" is so weak and came out of nowhere.

My wife asked me, "Why?"

I said, "The excuse is gonna be that she got a taste of the throne and wanted to decimate any opposition. Despite the fact they rang the bell to surrender. There will be nerds saying she went 'mad', weak excuse of shitty writing."

"You either die a hero, or live to see yourself become the enemy." Harvey Dent snapped and went mad because the people he trusted betrayed him, person he loved died and was killed by a psycho. Dany was betrayed by the people she trusted multiple times, person who (while not a romantic love, but loved nonethless) she loved is brutally murdered by a psycho. It was rushed sure, but it's not a stretch at all to see that this wasn't coming. It's been hinted at so much it's obvious

[kail]

Everyone has different way of act when they snap it doesn't have to be joker laughing as you describe it you know..

In fact Dany snapping seems very logical not saying what she did was right and just ofc not just saying I understand her reasons.

She lost many of her army + some of her dearest ones (Jorah Mormont), and most of her Dothraki army defending the north from the Night King.

And what she gets for doing all of that? people plotting and betraying her behind her back and mistrusting her and weakening her position overall and you are surprise when she snapped?

Danny snapping is fine, something I'd expect to see in GRRM's world. The way they portrayed it just makes zero sense. It's fine to provide some connection between her and her father (both mad and think everyone is a traitor), but it's really hard to get any level of sympathy when she just hears the bells and sets the city on fire. They explained why they kept the POV on the ground but we really needed to see Dany's reaction as she was raining fire from above.

I didn't expect the series to end perfectly or even great, but I also didn't expect this rushed season that makes less and less sense. She apparently could have taken the city alone with Drogon, she didn't do so when they beheaded her closest friend? Why is Tyrion still alive when he betrayed her almost as much as Varys?

[Prokne]

I don't really care if there is some distinction to be made whether Daenarys is Evil or Mad. Same shit, different wrapping.

Edit: And if her plan was to establish some prosperous Utopia, then comparing her to Stalin isn't doing the argument any favors.

Claiming something is crazy, insane or mad alleviates the person of guilt because they are not aware what they are doing is wrong. Evil is doing something that is wrong knowing that it is wrong. Dany is in part evil for what she has done, but she is not mad.

Another problem with the show is that they have never really said what she thinks Westeros will look like after she has conquered it. What does breaking the wheel really mean? If it was a better and benevolent system that would be good for everyone and they rejected it, then Dany's decision to abandon it would make more sense. From her interactions with the lords and ladies of Westeros, it would seem that they are not too keen on the change she wants to bring. No one except those that had a beef with Cersei joined her side. No loving subjects longing for her return, just disgruntled nobles with scores to settle that wanted to use her for their own revenge and other nobles that needed her to save their lives who still don't trust her or even seem to like her.

The show needed more time to set the character changes from this season in motion. Or they could have started earlier instead of typical Hollywood thinking that they were being clever and keeping a surprise twist secret.

[Brubear]

Why are people shocked at the Northman carrying on killing after the surrender? Have you forgotten what the Lannisters have done to them in the past?

Are you under the false illusion that they are all like Ned/Jon?

I wouldn't exactly call Dany a mad Targaryen yet as well, we'll see how she is acting next episode before that. At the moment she is just extremely pissed off. She is not the first person on this show to massacre civilians.

Because the civilians in Kings Landing are just as much Baratheon's and Targareyn's as they are Lannister's. It's not like They completely moved all of the people that lived near Casterly Rock to King's Landing as soon as Jofferey took over. It's largely the same people who lived there under Robert, and even a lot of the people who lived there under the Mad King.

[crono14]

Danny snapping is fine, something I'd expect to see in GRRM's world. The way they portrayed it just makes zero sense. It's fine to provide some connection between her and her father (both mad and think everyone is a traitor), but it's really hard to get any level of sympathy when she just hears the bells and sets the city on fire. They explained why they kept the POV on the ground but we really needed to see Dany's reaction as she was raining fire from above.

I didn't expect the series to end perfectly or even great, but I also didn't expect this rushed season that makes less and less sense. She apparently could have taken the city alone with Drogon, she didn't do so when they beheaded her closest friend? Why is Tyrion still alive when he betrayed her almost as much as Varys?

I mean I feel like most people are forgetting the horrible things that have been done in the past in this world. Red Wedding, Tywin ordered Mountain to rape and kill Oberyn's family after the Mad King died, Aegon likely also killed tens of thousands in his conquest, and probably many more I am overlooking. No one is good or bad in this world, and that is what GRRM is trying to show I think. Yes it was rushed, and that is D&D's and HBO's fault, it will be the same end in the books just fleshed out and probably better written. I can still appreciate the story overall though. D&D phoned the writing in 4 years ago in my opinion.

[Gallahadd]

Just heard this season referee to as “A Song of Ice and Dumpster Fires.”

Love it.

Also, YAY Cleganebowl!

5 mins and almost zero sword fighting later.

Well. That wasn’t worth the wait.

[dvaz]

Man this episode reads like a WoW Patch Notes with the nerfs and buffs from the last episodes.

[ohiostate124]

Another re-edit that improves it

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/co...keep_directly/

[Razzako]

It's not insane to believe you will be famous if you kill a lot of people. There are a whole lot of people who are known and famous just because they killed a lot of people. Based on precedent, it is reasonable to believe you will be famous if you are a mass murderer.

Crazy as in "that's crazy because it isn't normal," is different from crazy as in "lost all sense of reality." The last one is the legal definition of insanity and when you call someone crazy, or mad, you are saying that they are mentally disconnected from reality. Most mass murderers are still sane and rationalize their actions as necessary for their own personal goals or feelings. An insane person kills a bunch of people not knowing what is happening is real, not even realizing the people are dying. Killing a bunch of people because you believe they are part of a society that has shunned you or hurt you is not insane, it is an incorrect rationalization but is based in reality.

I wholeheartedly disagree, even Oxford defines crazy as "Mad, especially as manifested in wild or aggressive behaviour". Let's begin at the part where you claim I'm saying "they are mentally disconnected from reality". What I'm actually saying, is that if you are capable of rationalizing that committing mass murder of innocents is needed to further your goals, you are crazy. That is by all sense of the word abnormal. Most mass murderers rationalize their actions as necessary, obviously, they wouldn't commit such crimes otherwise, the point is that IF your rationale is capable of reaching such conclusions, then you are crazy. I think you're arguing that only someone who is completely disconnected to reality, as in not even knowing what is real, can be considered as crazy? If so then I believe the term you're looking for is insanity or psychosis.

What common people love Dany? If there are any, we haven't seen them. The Northerners praised Jon for doing exactly what she did right in front of her. No one thanks her for helping defeat the NK.

If the people in King's Landing loved Dany, why did they run inside the walls when her army came? No one was forcing them. If they loved her and wanted her to be queen, wouldn't they have gone out to be liberated by her and stay out of the battle?

King's Landing is just one city. Not everyone in Westeros lives there, and there are still plenty of people to rule.

My bad, I meant to say Essos, not Westeros. I agree almost nobody loves her in Westeros lol.

[TJ]

Jesus, what a complete load of garbage. I think this has actually taken the mantle of being worse than Dexter's last season, which I thought was impossible.

GoT really is going to be known as a joke after this.