[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[nocturnus]

I'm actually glad in a way that Dorne is as pathetic in the show as it was in the books.

It wasn't ill written though. Merely boring, arguably due to the setting. Dorne's plot in the TV series is ghastly in every single way.

[Deleted]

I'm actually glad in a way that Dorne is as pathetic in the show as it was in the books.

I loved the Dornish plot in the books. I can see why a lot of people don't like it - it's mostly it's own self-contained plot to introduce the Dornish characters before they join up with the main story, but there's a tonne of great characterisation in there, especially the relationship between Arianne and Doran.

The Sandsnakes aren't Martin's most brilliant creations but they're at least colourful and distinct from one another. And are tertiary characters to boot. D+D for some reason decided to elevate them to the central characters of the Dornish plot while stripping them of what little characterisation they had.

[Feali]

"I like xy"
"I don't like xy"
"XY didn't flash me as much"
"XY was boring"

It's almost like.. everything you've been discussing over.. is subjective.

[Arrowstormen]

"I like xy"
"I don't like xy"
"XY didn't flash me as much"
"XY was boring"

It's almost like.. everything you've been discussing over.. is subjective.

Everything you will ever discuss is subjective. And it doesn't matter.

[Laila]

I have no problem with promiscuous gay characters. As I explicitly stated and you chose to ignore apparently. But when there are only four LGBTQIA characters on the show and they are all promiscuous, or at least strongly implied to be so, that is a trend.

Loras has slept with Renly, whom he was utterly and completely devoted to, and Olyvar, after Renly's death.

2 people, at different times, and by all appearances monogamously... makes him promiscuous?

Renly... slept with Loras. He was so completely into Loras that he couldn't even get going for Margaery. How exactly does that make him promiscuous?


Seems pretty apparent that you're seeing gay as automatically promiscuous, rather than the characters being portrayed that way legitimately.

[Deleted]

Loras has slept with Renly, whom he was utterly and completely devoted to, and Olyvar, after Renly's death.

2 people, at different times, and by all appearances monogamously... makes him promiscuous?

Renly... slept with Loras. He was so completely into Loras that he couldn't even get going for Margaery. How exactly does that make him promiscuous?


Seems pretty apparent that you're seeing gay as automatically promiscuous, rather than the characters being portrayed that way legitimately.

I was wondering when that argument would come up. With Loras it is more the fact that he sleeps with the first gay man he comes across after Renly's death, and no mention of his relationship to Renly is made in that scene (a big contrast to how he acts in the books by the way). We don't see Loras with a lot of sexual partners, but his behaviour implies promiscuity. "Renly's dead, but here comes another gay man who I will sleep with immediately. Who's Renly again?" I mean it's been a while since I've seen S3, but isn't the set up between Loras and Olyvar literally just the two glancing at one another, and then cut to the two of them in bed?

And then that's further reinforced with the flirtatious glances between Loras and Oberyn at Joffrey's wedding. Because apparently if two queer people are at a function together they must psychically seek each other out and have the hots for one another. Which - fun fact - is made especially ironic given the Tyrell/Martell rivalry in the books. I know that doesn't really exist in the show though.

I think D+D have the best of intentions to be fair. They want to be progressive and include representation, but to me it ends up feeling exploitative and tokenistic. I mean really when was the last scene involving Loras that didn't make some reference to his sexuality?

[ItachiZaku]

And I am saying that what you are saying based on what you know now. If you lived in the world of Westeros you would feel differently.

Or the middle east. And parts of Asia. Some people still live by a lot of those same concepts, and I don't think we (United States, rulers of the planet) have any right to push our morals on anyone. In Asia, Westeros, etc, a child is a piece of property, a bargaining chip, an asset. I always view these shows (or try to) in their element, not in ours. The Walking Dead isn't in todays USA moral scope, nor is Westeros or Meereen.

[Frozenbeef]

I really hope Cersei doesn't die, she's such a good character... arguably the most evil person in creation and the entire reason why everyone is suffering but still she is fun to watch :S

[Feali]

(United States, rulers of the planet)

Well I didn't vote for you.

[ItachiZaku]

I have issues with statutory rape when consent is given between both parties, and both are of an age where consent means something. Rape as a concept is about free will and the denial of it. To say Margaery having consensual sex with Tommen is rape degrades the concept of rape, and the same happens IRL too. Just because it's a law IRL doesn't mean it's a good law, either, believe it or not.

But there would have to be some cut offs. In Iowa, 16 is legal. I SAY I would never consider someone in high school, be it a 16 year old or a 19 year old. In some starts, 16 is illegal, but legal if the other person is 19. I don't see a difference between a 19 year old and a 30 year old in most cases, unless they are still in high school (it's a stigma for me for some reason). People can argue the money, status, decade of extra manipulative experience as a reason, but some younger people (Sansa for instance) are taught that their sexuality is an asset that can be bartered for status, goods and services, etc. and then just the general process of getting to know someone, clicking, and getting it on. To me, that's where the law is fuzzy and that it is different in every state makes it all the worse.

[Feali]

But there would have to be some cut offs. In Iowa, 16 is legal. I SAY I would never consider someone in high school, be it a 16 year old or a 19 year old. In some starts, 16 is illegal, but legal if the other person is 19. I don't see a difference between a 19 year old and a 30 year old in most cases, unless they are still in high school (it's a stigma for me for some reason). People can argue the money, status, decade of extra manipulative experience as a reason, but some younger people (Sansa for instance) are taught that their sexuality is an asset that can be bartered for status, goods and services, etc. and then just the general process of getting to know someone, clicking, and getting it on. To me, that's where the law is fuzzy and that it is different in every state makes it all the worse.

And that's why the United States aren't the rulers of the planet.

[rorian]

Whats funny about the last seemingly 50 pages of this thread is if Sansa had been raped in the book, people in this thread would be complaining that it was too tame in the show.

We get it, you read the books...congrats

[pateuvasiliu]

Coming to the book spoiler thread and complaining about book readers. That's just special.

[rorian]

Coming to the book spoiler thread and complaining about book readers. That's just special.

A lot of people have both read the books and watched the show. However, not everyone feels the need for them to be the exact same and has the common sense to realize that they are two completely different medias with different audiences.

[Feali]

Yes. We've established this on page 1.

[rorian]

Yes. We've established this on page 1.

And it has been ignored for 329 pages.

[Feali]

So then why did you come here? To complain about book readers? That's my job. But at least I also bring something constructive to the table.

[ItachiZaku]

Well I didn't vote for you.

Neither did I

- - - Updated - - -

Whats funny about the last seemingly 50 pages of this thread is if Sansa had been raped in the book, people in this thread would be complaining that it was too tame in the show.

We get it, you read the books...congrats

I just wanted some tits.

[Simulacrum]

And then that's further reinforced with the flirtatious glances between Loras and Oberyn at Joffrey's wedding. Because apparently if two queer people are at a function together they must psychically seek each other out and have the hots for one another. Which - fun fact - is made especially ironic given the Tyrell/Martell rivalry in the books. I know that doesn't really exist in the show though.

I think D+D have the best of intentions to be fair. They want to be progressive and include representation, but to me it ends up feeling exploitative and tokenistic. I mean really when was the last scene involving Loras that didn't make some reference to his sexuality?

Everybody is defined by their sexuality (imagine a gay jamie, or a gay littlefinger, or a straight loras for that matter). Loras' homosexuality just comes to the forefront because he's a minor character (which also explains the lack of set-up; they don't have time for it... not that I approve of what they chose to spend time on instead, but that's besides the point) and it's the most important aspect of his character in the context of this story. He's never married, him being Renly's lover is the reason for the alliance between them, it's clearly forbidden (but practiced anyway, which makes it very dangerous; an exploitable weakness) to be homosexual, etc. It's not surprising that most of the scenes that feature him feature this most important aspect of his character.

It's also not surprising that Oberyn would flirt with him, since he flirted with everything within range and knew Loras was open to it (even if he may not have expected him to act on it; that's how flirting usually works - you just troll around hoping to get lucky).

Not like Loras' sexual habits is treated any different from many other characters. Theon couldn't wait to get his dick wet, when he still had one. Tyrion is famously a whoremonger. Robert fucked his way into so many bastards that Cercei wasn't even able to track them all down. Walter Frey seems to spend his time doing nothing else. Bronn spends all his time not spent fighting fucking, or - if he isn't fucking - talking about how he wants to spend more time fucking. Melissandre tries her best to jump every man she sees some potential in, and even killed a guy with her with her magical sexual powers. And so on... it's just more prominent in Loras because, again, he's a minor character and it's the most important part of his character in this story so that's what they spend all their time on.

I also expect they try to get him naked as much as possible to compensate for the naked women everywhere. Though that is exploitative, but it isn't his gayness being exploited there - it's his maleness.

[Feali]

I just wanted some tits.

Didn't we all?