[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[ablock87]

I really don't see what your point is.

It's clear foreshadowing, which is all I was saying there. Do you not understand what "foreshadowing" is?

I completely understand what foreshadowing is, but it's not consistent with Danny's actions through 70+ episodes

You see her do one thing to try and survive and somehow think it MUST be proof she was mad all along, jfc lol

[Molis]

If it's true that George RR Martin gave D&D his outline of the story including George RR Martin's ending of "A Song of Ice and Fire", and this is the plot that will appear in the books, I'm sure George RR Martin will take a lot of time and explain in great detail how these characters like Jaime, Cersei and Dany came to their decisions. He'll write the last two books in a way that will make sense to everyone.

He's a very good author.

I am confident this is true. So people saying "I do not like ending" "I am smart person on internet" can be ignored because this is the ending that GRRM always intended.

If your argument is D&D total butchered the last 13 episodes because it was rushed and poorly written. I cant really argue with that logic.

[Gorsameth]

I am confident this is true. So people saying "I do not like ending" "I am smart person on internet" can be ignored because this is the ending that GRRM always intended.

If your argument is D&D total butchered the last 13 episodes because it was rushed and poorly written. I cant really argue with that logic.

The end points can be the same but the journey to that point is what defines a story.

My problem with "D&D are just working off of GRRM's notes is the bit about how it didn't feel right for Jon to kill the NK. If they were working off of Martins notes then it doesn't matter what they think, they do what the notes say. (which is a problem in and of itself because the NK doesn't even exist in the books)
But if they are not following the notes then who knows what is theirs and what is Martin's idea's.

[draynay]

I am confident this is true. So people saying "I do not like ending" "I am smart person on internet" can be ignored because this is the ending that GRRM always intended.

If your argument is D&D total butchered the last 13 episodes because it was rushed and poorly written. I cant really argue with that logic.

That isn't a practical view of what an "ending" is. A dramatic ending isn't the final result, the whole final act makes up the denouement. There is no real distinction between their point and your counterpoint.

[Tekkommo]

I am confident this is true. So people saying "I do not like ending" "I am smart person on internet" can be ignored because this is the ending that GRRM always intended.

If your argument is D&D total butchered the last 13 episodes because it was rushed and poorly written. I cant really argue with that logic.

What's wrong with not liking the ending, when getting there has been rushed and written poorly? The ending of a story is judged on the journey there.

I'll get it from the books, and at least the show has made me look forward to the final books more now, but that may be a long wait...

[Molis]

What's wrong with not liking the ending, when getting there has been rushed and written poorly? The ending of a story is judged on the journey there.

I'll get it from the books, and at least the show has made me look forward to the final books more now, but that may be a long wait...

Yeah I didnt really make that clear. Of course it is OK to have different opinions on the ending of anything.

Just too many people in this thread shitting on GoT because its the cool edgy thing to do.

I guess you get that with something immensely popular.

[Dacien]

I was listening to morning radio really early, and the host brought on a guest to talk about the petition for HBO to hire competent writers, and she asked why fans are upset. One of the reasons the guest gave was, "Well, they didn't like that there was a Starbucks cup in one of the episodes." And I was like, man, that's BS. I'm largely happy enough with the show, but I'm absolutely cognizant that the complaints about the writing or plot implementation are not without substance. I'm sympathetic, and I quietly cheer on the fans trying to make something great happen with the show.

[Ashina]

https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/co...t_episodes_46/

Found it earlier, I think this is what they are talking about.

Big. Yikes.

This can’t be real but it wouldn’t surprise me anymore.

[Endus]

I completely understand what foreshadowing is, but it's not consistent with Danny's actions through 70+ episodes

You see her do one thing to try and survive and somehow think it MUST be proof she was mad all along, jfc lol

Her actions and statements all lead to where we're at now.

You've got to overlook all the warning signs to try and make this argument. She's been promising blood and ashes since Season 2, burning people alive throughout, you don't get to claim it's out of character when she follows through on all that, taking the next step on the same path she's been walking this entire show.

[eschatological]

Yeah I didnt really make that clear. Of course it is OK to have different opinions on the ending of anything.

Just too many people in this thread shitting on GoT because its the cool edgy thing to do.

I guess you get that with something immensely popular.

I feel like this is way overstated. People are shitting on it because it's shitty. Even the defenders of this show are lamenting the rushed nature to get to plot point A, at the expense of character development.

[eschatological]

Her actions and statements all lead to where we're at now.

You've got to overlook all the warning signs to try and make this argument. She's been promising blood and ashes since Season 2, burning people alive throughout, you don't get to claim it's out of character when she follows through on all that, taking the next step on the same path she's been walking this entire show.

This is disingenuous at best. She GREW from that - she was childish and desparate in the scene you're referencing. Mormont wasn't yet fully in her inner circle, she didn't know the truth of Aerys, her father, etc. She grew from that and expressed a more magnanimous attitude. One thing she has been throughout the show is self-righteous and, as pointed out in ep4, convinced of her destiny to sit the Iron Throne. This has made her ruthless, but that ruthlessness has been laser focused on wrongdoers - not just wrongdoers who wronged her, but wrongdoers like slavers. She gained nothing from freeing the slaves of Mereen. Hell, after she got the Unsullied, she was ready to go to Westeros, but she got caught up in the plight of slaves in Slaver's Bay.

It is a valid writing choice for a character to be childish, then grow, and then regress. But if there was actual growth, the childish phase doesn't inform the regression. The problem is, the regression was way too unjustified BECAUSE she had moved on from the childish tantrum of threatening to burn down Qarth. Hell, last season after she attacked the Lannister soldiers, she talked specifically about NOT wanting to be the Queen of Ashes, and put herself in opposition to Cersei's use and abuse of the smallfolk.

As for burning people: that's just her method of execution. I don't know why you proscribe that to be more ruthless or heinous than beheading wrongdoers. All the landed lords in this setting execute wrongdoers.

[ohiostate124]

Oh get off it already Endus. We get it, you think the episode is fine. Most of us don't, and we've presented clear reasons for why burning *innocent women and children* and *people who flat-out surrendered* is radically out of character for someone who has ONLY EVER KILLED ENEMY COMBATANTS, EVILDOERS, AND PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO SURRENDER. She went out of her way to protect the downtrodden at every possible opportunity, and that entire aspect of her character just got thrown away because the show needed a one dimensional villain.

Christ, you'd probably sit their justifying Sylvanas' cartoon villainy too, now that I think about it. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

Good post.

[Endus]

I feel like this is way overstated. People are shitting on it because it's shitty. Even the defenders of this show are lamenting the rushed nature to get to plot point A, at the expense of character development.

I read a good twitter thread from a guy who highlighted what I think is the core issue with Seasons 7-8. There's basically two types of writer; plotters and pantsers. Plotters figure out in detail where the plot will go, every nook and cranny, and have detailed outlines they then fill out when writing the book/show. Pantsers figure out character, and then figure out the story as they go, "by the seat of their pants", hence "pantsers". The former usually produce tighter-written plots, but more-wooden characters, the latter tend to produce better-written characters, but their plots can meander and lose focus.

Most writers are a mix, but those are the two poles. A fairly common strategy is to plot the major points, A and then B, and then pants how characters get from A to B and respond to each.

George R. R. Martin is a Class-A pantser. Everything's character-driven. He writes a character, throws them up against other characters, and figures out what would happen. It's why he's so willing to just murder what seems like major characters; it's what that character that killed them would've done in that situation, and he doesn't have a deeply developed plot that requires those now-dead characters to be around later. I don't believe he had any real idea where A Song of Ice and Fire was going to end when he wrapped up Book 1. Maybe the VERY loosest of strokes about Daenerys and the White Walkers and the fate of the Iron Throne, but nothing more. I think he lost that thread in books 3 and 4 a bit, introduced new characters, and while nurturing their plotlines, others fell fallow or stalled out, and he had to start pruning.

And that's basically where the show writers came in. Seasons 1-4 followed the first books, which were full-on glorious pantsing at its best, but then they moved past that and tried to clean some of the mess up, and now that we're beyond the written and HBO wanted this wrapped up, they handed it off to D&D to finalize, with a strict deadline.

Now, D&D aren't pantsers. They're plotters. Having a deadline to meet, and an established story and characters, they had to sit down and figure out what high points had to be hit, what conflicts needed resolving, what order things had to happen in, and how to punch all of that into the remaining time they had. While I think they'd done only an okay job, not up to snuff with the rest of the show, I'm fairly certain they're not the ones who set the deadline in terms of number of remaining shows/seasons. Had they been given an extra 6 shows to shoot, a lot of these issues could probably have been resolved, but they simply didn't have that option.

But regardless, it's that shift from a fully-pantsed world and characters to a fully-plotted race to the finish that's the core of the issue. That's what people are really noticing, and hating. And while all this is paraphrased, if anyone digs out the twitter thread I'm pulling it out of, 95% of the credit for what I'm saying is that guy's; I saw it on imgur in passing this morning and can't be arsed to try and find it but I'm also not trying to claim this is my idea; I'm just rephrasing it from memory (though "plotters" and "pantsers" is definitely that guy's terminology).

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Oh get off it already Endus. We get it, you think the episode is fine.

I've said I think the season is pretty poor, overall, and that episode was not a high point.

I'm pointing out that the show has always, since Season 2 at least, been driving at Daenerys being the destroyer, the conqueror. Her story has continually reinforced that.

Most of us don't, and we've presented clear reasons for why burning *innocent women and children* and *people who flat-out surrendered* is radically out of character for someone who has ONLY EVER KILLED ENEMY COMBATANTS, EVILDOERS, AND PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO SURRENDER. She went out of her way to protect the downtrodden at every possible opportunity, and that entire aspect of her character just got thrown away because the show needed a one dimensional villain.

This simply is not true. It's never been true. "Evildoers" is framed as "people who don't do what Daenerys wants them to do", nothing deeper. The first person she had killed, the woman who killed her unborn child, was the very kind of "downtrodden" you claim she always protects; she was lashing out at the Khal who had conquered and oppressed her people. She burned the Khals alive when they wouldn't bend the knee, and they really had no reason to; she had no proper claim on their loyalty. And so forth. And so forth.

This wasn't the huge leap for her that you make it out to be.

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As for burning people: that's just her method of execution. I don't know why you proscribe that to be more ruthless or heinous than beheading wrongdoers. All the landed lords in this setting execute wrongdoers.

Burning to death is a sadistically cruel means of execution. Beheading is comparatively humane.

Also, she isn't implementing the mandated penalty for a crime according to a set code of laws. She kills people by her own whims, because she says so, and she's the one with the dragon. That's as deep as it goes; there is no "law", no "code".

[RobertoCarlos]

Burning to death by drogon is instant death. It's not like burning at the stake

[Koriani]

All I can think now is...

Damn.. D&D are slated to write the next Star Wars.

Thats gonna suck.

[Tekkommo]

And that's basically where the show writers came in. Seasons 1-4 followed the first books, which were full-on glorious pantsing at its best, but then they moved past that and tried to clean some of the mess up, and now that we're beyond the written and HBO wanted this wrapped up, they handed it off to D&D to finalize, with a strict deadline.

HBO wanted more seasons and episodes, it was entirely D&Ds decision to do fewer.

[Endus]

HBO wanted more seasons and episodes, it was entirely D&Ds decision to do fewer.

Was it? If that's the case, fuck 'em. There's no reason to rush this unless you're being asked to.

But I'm pretty sure they're not the ones setting the budget and such, which effectively limits how many episodes you can shoot.

[Tekkommo]

Was it? If that's the case, fuck 'em. There's no reason to rush this unless you're being asked to.

But I'm pretty sure they're not the ones setting the budget and such, which effectively limits how many episodes you can shoot.

They were offered more money as well.

HBO make a huge profit from GoT.

[Beazy]

Anyone else find it strange that we don't see Daenerys once she starts wrecking KL?

Would have been nice to see her frame of mind while doing what she did.

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Well GRRM will most likely do it in a way that makes sense.

Martin will dedicate the next book to the dead army. It wont be an hour long single battle like in the show. And a dream of spring will prob be about Danny going insane and nuking everyone in the end. Martin will spend an entire book on it and it will be so much better than the show.

If he finishes them that is . . . . /cry

[Endus]

They were offered more money as well.

HBO make a huge profit from GoT.

Then I don't fucking know. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they really are the ones who pushed for a lower budget and lower episode count, they're the only ones to blame.