[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Shampro]

Stannis pretty much reached Mad King territory. There's no going back, even his men were pretty much disgusted with what was happening, if some of their faces is anything to go by. The comparison between a brother that was trying to kill/usurp him and a little girl that had no qualms in this is frankly stupid.

[Deleted]

Stannis pretty much reached Mad King territory. There's no going back, even his men were pretty much disgusted with what was happening, if some of their faces is anything to go by. The comparison between a brother that was trying to kill/usurp him and a little girl that had to qualms in this is frankly stupid.

Well we`ll finally have a justification for why Brienne as a character exists - all the not-that subtle foreshadowing about it isnt just a coincidence.

[Darth Belichick]

When it comes to Stannis, people aren't taking human nature into account. Stannis has seen her power work twice (technically 4 times cuz of the 3 leeches). Yes back in the day he had gotten through worse times, but he didn't have someone with some supernatural ability that could help turn the tide. Also, don't forget the Iron Bank has backed him and they expect something in return so he has extra pressure on him. Between all that, as well as being hell bent on becomming King because he feels it rightfully belongs to him (and he is right), he broke down for the good of his pursuit as well as the rest of his army especially with winter starting to really takes it's toll.

For sacrificing someone he cares about, he is basically hoping for an "I Win" button. Also, he may care about her, but I'm not sure he loves her per se. He does, but I don't think it's a deep love like Ned had for his children. He might have loved Shireen, but she was still a disspointment to him in the long run, even if he wouldn't say it out loud. Did he hate himself for doing it? Sure. But if it was a strong son who was his heir, I don't think he ever would have done it.

[Sooba]

He's not one dimensional at all.

Its people who have an idealized version of him that seem to be upset at this change. Even I was on the Stannis the Mannis train, but now I realize that I've been whitewashing the stuff he's been doing. And a lot of seeing that is because of the EW interview where one of the show runners talks about showing a death of somebody we care about vs people we don't and what that says about us vs the characters.

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It's like Garrosh having one redeeming moment surrounded by morally questionable ones.

Just because the show exhibits one moment where he's shown to be fatherly (Two, arguably), doesn't suddenly invalidate all of those other times where he's straight up burning people to death, killing his own brother, willing to sacrifice his own nephew, ect.

Ultimately I find it kind of funny that people would say those of us who aren't up in arms over what Stannis does are seeing him as "one dimensional," when I'd say actually the opposite is true. People who see Stannis as this noble figure are the ones doing so.

Don't lump us all into one group. All that does is serve to strawman the situation, and you're better than that.

I was never on "team Stannis" or thought of him as "Stannis the Mannis" or whatever the fuck else people said. I was irritated at show Stannis because they set him up as some uber justice guy when it was obvious from the books that he was brittle, easily irritated, inflexible, and manipulated. His ability for diplomacy sits somewhere South of "terrible", almost in Viserys territory. I never could understand why people loved him so much and thought that he somehow belonged on the Iron Throne. (I even remember getting into it with you about this very topic way earlier on in the thread. Surprise!)

That doesn't change that the show made him out to be that tad bit warmer. Then completely fucked both that AND his book innate law-incarnate sensibilities by making him throw Shireen into the fire at the drop of a hat. He simply wasn't shown to be brittle enough because D&D were too in love with the guy early on. Then when it came time to have to make his ethics crumble, it just didn't make sense. They painted themselves into a corner and realized too late that they had to get out.

Ignoring this most recent episode, book Stannis is actually much closer psychologically to the sort of guy who would burn his daughter. Ironically, he's nowhere near her geographically. If book Stannis snapped, as rigid, brittle people are wont to do, it'd make sense. I'm betting GRRM would even then give more time to the issue because even in the books Stannis' character arc would need a bit of travel-time to get to that space. But show Stannis just doesn't have that moment, or any of the requisite lead up.

Which for me all comes back to the time they've dedicated to fluff uselessness. They could have made Stannis make sense. Instead they were too busy with broody-smoky-look and nubile-no-personality in the most futile romantic arc ever. Or too busy making 90's-music-star into more than just a sellsword. They fucked the pooch on the characterization they needed in favour of the ones they liked, forgetting entirely that the people they ignored have to go somewhere.

In the end I definitely think Shireen gets sacced. (There was way too much haunting foreshadowing going on with Patchface for it not to happen.) I'm betting Stannis might even somehow be involved. (The guy isn't a religious zealot, but he seems to have no issues leading them.) But GRRM's interpretation is (with my crystal ball here) simply much more likely to make sense, because he's proven to me he knows how. D&D lose the script when they wander too far from his guidance. They were fantastic at adapting what was already written, even with some wrinkles. They're not so good at forging ahead without it.

[Grimbold21]

I think that at this point, to sort of bring this discussion to an end, people should just consider that there's original Stannis and Show Stannis.

[Wyattbw09]

I hope Davos reminds him of his words, and Stannis acts accordingly. No matter what else he has done he is now a kinslayer (and at a particularly heinous level) and should by his own words suffer accordingly.

"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good."

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I refuse to believe she is dead until we see it

While I think it is fairly plain she is dead, I also am hoping that somehow this ends up being a convoluted glamoring trick, for a VERY bit character she was one of my favorites, and her presence makes Davos so much more interesting.

Guess the obvious is made official.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-shireen/?_r=0

[Frontenac]

What Stannis did last episode was G.R.R. Martin's idea. Watch the "Inside Episode 9" commentary. David Benioff says:

"It's obviously the hardest choice he had in his life, and what it comes down to is just ambition and familial love, and for Stannis sadly that choice is ambition. When George first told us about this, it was one of those moment when I'd be looking at Dan, it was just like, God! it's so, so horrible and so good in the story sense, because it all comes together."

It looks like Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in Winds of Winter.

[Deleted]

You actually think he believes in all that AA non-sense?

Fuck sakes, he questions her beliefs this season and has massive doubts if the magic is legit at all.
''I will have no burnings, pray harder.''.

The guy is borderline atheist.

I seriously doubt that. Even if in the beginning he was like, meh if it works, it works, he must have changed his mind later on. After Mel burning the leeches representing the three false kings, guess what? All three died. Also, the one time Stannis agrees to leave Mel behind (because Davos convinced him), his army is crushed (Blackwater). So I do think he believes in the whole Red God stuff.

[Grimbold21]

What Stannis did last episode was G.R.R. Martin's idea. Watch the "Inside Episode 9" commentary. David Benioff says:

"It's obviously the hardest choice he had in his life, and what it comes down to is just ambition and familial love, and for Stannis sadly that choice is ambition. When George first told us about this, it was one of those moment when I'd be looking at Dan, it was just like, God! it's so, so horrible and so good in the story sense, because it all comes together."

It looks like Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in Winds of Winter.

He will have to get himself an ice dragon to leave the siege and head back to Castle Black to do that.

[Gaman]

What Stannis did last episode was G.R.R. Martin's idea. Watch the "Inside Episode 9" commentary. David Benioff says:

"It's obviously the hardest choice he had in his life, and what it comes down to is just ambition and familial love, and for Stannis sadly that choice is ambition. When George first told us about this, it was one of those moment when I'd be looking at Dan, it was just like, God! it's so, so horrible and so good in the story sense, because it all comes together."

It looks like Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in Winds of Winter.

I do belive Shireen will be roasted in books aswell, but I doubt it will be by Stannis command. So I can understand the uproar about it for book people, but if you only follow the show, or manages to actually seperate them, it did not come off as a suprise at all.

People needs to understand Stannis belives he is the only one that can save Westeros, as of now, he is the only one that actually cares about the confilict beyond the wall, as in, I do think he belives Jon Snow about the WW threat. Nobody else of the "High Lords" have given it a secounds thought, hell, no one but Stannis even belives they exist (with the exception of The NW).

Fuck everything about Stannis wanting to become king, its not about wanting to become, its about needing to become king so he can save Westeros. If he retreats back to CB, he wont get anywhere, NW will have more men for the war against the WW, but probably not enough, they all die at the wall and the WW comes for the rest of Westeros. He marches on Winterfell, he have a way better "camp" there than CB to keep on marching south towards KL.

So as it currently stands, Stannis needs to become king to win the war against the WW, unless Dany sends a dragon and roast them all...

Sacrificing Shireen, to in the end win against the WW, thats a sacrifice worth taking. And looking from show prespective only, that is what Stannis did. Even if that sacrifice only helps him get Winterfell, its still better than dying where he is currently camping, or retreat back to CB, because if he does either of that, all is lost.

[RobertoCarlos]

I do belive Shireen will be roasted in books aswell, but I doubt it will be by Stannis command. So I can understand the uproar about it for book people, but if you only follow the show, or manages to actually seperate them, it did not come off as a suprise at all.

People needs to understand Stannis belives he is the only one that can save Westeros, as of now, he is the only one that actually cares about the confilict beyond the wall, as in, I do think he belives Jon Snow about the WW threat. Nobody else of the "High Lords" have given it a secounds thought, hell, no one but Stannis even belives they exist (with the exception of The NW).

Fuck everything about Stannis wanting to become king, its not about wanting to become, its about needing to become king so he can save Westeros. If he retreats back to CB, he wont get anywhere, NW will have more men for the war against the WW, but probably not enough, they all die at the wall and the WW comes for the rest of Westeros. He marches on Winterfell, he have a way better "camp" there than CB to keep on marching south towards KL.

So as it currently stands, Stannis needs to become king to win the war against the WW, unless Dany sends a dragon and roast them all...

Sacrificing Shireen, to in the end win against the WW, thats a sacrifice worth taking. And looking from show prespective only, that is what Stannis did. Even if that sacrifice only helps him get Winterfell, its still better than dying where he is currently camping, or retreat back to CB, because if he does either of that, all is lost.

nice post.

Also for the tv show its interesting how much this will effect stannis going forward with a great actor playing him.

[Grimbold21]

That's pretty great version of the Rains of Castamere for the Walk of Shame part of the finale, specially the ending of the tune.

[Gallahadd]

It looks like Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in Winds of Winter.

Well... Fuck. There goes my top pick for the throne...

Team Little Griff it is!

[BloodyAngel12]

Well... Fuck. There goes my top pick for the throne...

Team Little Griff it is!

What if he is a Blackfyre and not a Targaryen

[Boricha]

I'm so glad the dragon didn't die. When he was getting all the spears thrown into him at the end, I was like "nooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

Is that as big as the dragons will get? I expected them to grow to like huge, skyscraper levels.

[Ilikegreenfire]

I'm so glad the dragon didn't die. When he was getting all the spears thrown into him at the end, I was like "nooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

Is that as big as the dragons will get? I expected them to grow to like huge, skyscraper levels.

May i direct you to this prime specimen

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Balerion

In other words no, the dragons will grow much much larger their scales will grow and thicken to the point that those spears probably wouldn't even tickle them. Their breath with grow in power until they can easy melt stone and steel. The thing is they still have decades of growth to go to become real war dragons.

[Adam Jensen]

I'm so glad the dragon didn't die. When he was getting all the spears thrown into him at the end, I was like "nooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

Is that as big as the dragons will get? I expected them to grow to like huge, skyscraper levels.

Well, story-wise, they never stop growing their entire lives.

[BarelyLegalBear]

May i direct you to this prime specimen

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Balerion

In other words no, the dragons will grow much much larger their scales will grow and thicken to the point that those spears probably wouldn't even tickle them. Their breath with grow in power until they can easy melt stone and steel. The thing is they still have decades of growth to go to become real war dragons.

This is really the only reason why I hope we get a prequel, really would love to see the Targaryens ruling in their prime.

[Ilikegreenfire]

This is really the only reason why I hope we get a prequel, really would love to see the Targaryens ruling in their prime.

I also wanna see a Robert's rebellion prequel as well. There is just so many plots they could base a show out off. Age of heros, War of conquest, dance with dragons ect. Really hop HBO picks up more plots after Got finishes.

[ciggy]

I'm so glad the dragon didn't die. When he was getting all the spears thrown into him at the end, I was like "nooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

Is that as big as the dragons will get? I expected them to grow to like huge, skyscraper levels.

From what i've read, watched and heard, dragons never stop growing, only limited by what they consume and have no theoretical upper limit. Balerion was MASSIVE!!