[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Gorsameth]

Aside from the fact that D.B. Weiss himself said he did not see the Night King as a villain, the "human bickering" part of the show (which, by the way, was repeatedly stated to pale in comparison to the threat of the Night King) could have continued even if the Night King won at Winterfell. Only, it would be overshadowed by the Night King marching on King´s Landing to finish what he started.

That would actually be in line with GRRM's writing. Cersei dying for her stubborn refusal to see the real threat as the undead swarm over Kingslanding.
People dying because their stupid decisions have real consequences.

[Varodoc]

That would actually be in line with GRRM's writing. Cersei dying for her stubborn refusal to see the real threat as the undead swarm over Kingslanding.
People dying because their stupid decisions have real consequences.

Yes. And now that the Night King died at the expense of 50% of Daenerys´ army (still BS that so many survived), Cersei has basically been proven right, instead of being humbled and punished for her arrogance.

[Varodoc]

While I totally agree with you, I kind of understand where they come from. They kind of written themselves into a corner.

If they did make the night king the final villain, then cersie would have been a joke compared to daenerys army, it wouldn't make for a good war where you don't know who would win. But now that the night king nearly wiped out danny army, there is a good war where you don't know who will come out victorious.

I am pretty sure it is mentioned during the council scene in the last episode that the Night King wiped out only 50% of Daenerys' forces.

[Prokne]

ps.
You forgot Robb also lost most of the North's army just a few years before.

I wasn't sure how many of Rob's men died. Of course he did and a lot of his men that were nearby, but I thought it was possible a lot of them survived because they would have just surrendered when they heard Rob was dead. The Boltons were also his men and they survived by betraying him.

[eschatological]

Again, the Night King, like the Lich King (zing) is a good threat, but not a very good vilain for a show based on Human failings.

He perfectly highlights human failings. IE, everyone is bickering and scrambling for human power, when existential Doom is literally encroaching on them. The Night King, if powerful, should sweep away anyone caught up in the nonsense of Westerosi politics. For example, if the NK marched on KL, Cersei would be utterly unprepared and unable to fight him. That's why the compelling storyline is to have the humans defeated at Winterfell, killing all the "political schemers" (like Tyrion, Varys, Sansa, maybe even Dany), and forcing the remnants of the North to regroup and ally with the South, who would have to rely on their obsidian weaponry and know-how of the enemy. From there, you go to either a final defeat of the human race, or last second, by the brink-of-their-teeth victory.

And then, as a denouement, have someone who fought and won against literal Death, sitting weary on the throne, as the Game of Thrones starts again. There doesn't even need to be a war between Cersei and Dany. Let Arya sneakily kill Cersei during the allied battle against the dead in KL, and then, in a very Littlefinger-esque move, mirroring how she sneakily planted the seeds of Robert's death, paint her as heroic, saving lives, to placate the Lannisters who might otherwise go to war for killing her. She has no heirs, and Dany or Jon coming and saving KL would be reason enough to win them the throne.

This shit isn't hard.


Without the NK, Cersei just looks comical.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

We'll probably end up seeing a couple of them in a few movies/tv-shows in the coming years, but yeah they aren't anything special.
When I think of great GoT actors I think of Tywin and Olenna.

He doesn't get mentioned much now that he's been gone for several years, but I gotta given props to Jack Gleeson as Joffrey, though he retired from acting.

Davos is great to in my view

Upvote on Liam Cunningham as Davos. He really carried the Stannis storyline and brought a lot of life to the North.

I hear a lot of praise for Stephane Dillane, but I thought he was rather stiff. Maybe it's the direction he was given, but he also came off as the same, grim, stiff, "I must do what I must to fulfill my duty" caricature throughout.

[sarahtasher]

I will be blunt, I think that one of the plagues of the modern age is that anyone, without any qualification in the field of A) TV B)Videogame C)Writing (qualification would be here ''releasing a commercial product'') short of ''I liked it but I hate it now'' feel the need to pontify on how they would have done it better.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I will be blunt, I think that one of the plagues of the modern age is that anyone, without any qualification in the field of A) TV B)Videogame C)Writing (qualification would be here ''releasing a commercial product'') short of ''I liked it but I hate it now'' feel the need to pontify on how they would have done it better.

Please. You don't need to have written your own stories to be able to understand writing theory and to share what you did and did not like about a story. Feedback is how an author finds out how they can make their stories more appealing to their audiences. Whether or not they want to take that feedback and make changes, or ignore it and continue on in the name of staying true to their vision is up to them, but they cannot force someone to like their story.

[sarahtasher]

Please. You don't need to have written your own stories to be able to understand writing theory and to share what you did and did not like about a story. Feedback is how an author finds out how they can make their stories more appealing to their audiences. Whether or not they want to take that feedback and make changes, or ignore it and continue on in the name of staying true to their vision is up to them, but they cannot force someone to like their story.

Absolutely (for the record, Georges will have ample feedback to finish the story, that's for sure). People are quite free to not like something and to vote with their wallets. Except that not liking does not qualify them for suggesting ''fixes''. I mean sure they can suggest, it does not mean its valuable feedback.

The Night King being offed is not a good narrative, granted. Thing is, what would have been a good narrative ? I don't want to be a party popper, but fixes like ''and he fights zombies for 14 more episodes'' would have value in a world where time and budgets are infinite.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Absolutely (for the record, Georges will have ample feedback to finish the story, that's for sure). People are quite free to not like something and to vote with their wallets. Except that not liking does not qualify them for suggesting ''fixes''. I mean sure they can suggest, it does not mean its valuable feedback.

How are audiences not qualified to suggest what they would have preferred to have seen? The statement in of itself is valuable.

The Night King being offed is not a good narrative, granted. Thing is, what would have been a good narrative ? I don't want to be a party popper, but fixes like ''and he fights zombies for 14 more episodes'' would have value in a world where time and budgets are infinite.

You are attaching arbitrary conditions here. Some people like to think of how they could rewrite the story using what is available at hand like the Lorerunner, but most people speak thinking about what they thought would've made for a more interesting show in general. I see no reason why such arbitrary qualifiers should be attached.

[Tekkommo]

So Jaime stabbed the "Mad King" in the back when he was ordering KL to be burned by wildfire, would seem quite fitting if he did the same to Cersei.

[eschatological]

So Jaime stabbed the "Mad King" in the back when he was ordering KL to be burned by wildfire, would seem quite fitting if he did the same to Cersei.

I think if he kills Cersei (who knows, with the leaks), it should at least have some narrative oomph to it. I imagine Cersei will be stark raving mad, maybe after miscarrying. Like a babbling fool, unable to do anything, but still a huge danger to herself. Feeling suicidal or something, maybe she threatens to really blow up the outside, and he'll have to mercy kill her. Because he loves her. And then he utters his famous line, "The things I do for love."

Then he completes the cycle, kingslayer and kinslayer. And the slayer of one's love, whatever that is, and maybe he's executed for it by some Lannisters who won't see him as a fit heir to Casterly Rock (let's forget he's not the heir to Casterly Rock in terms of continuity, Tyrion is, since D&D have forgotten any semblance of continuity).

[Isilrien]

Absolutely (for the record, Georges will have ample feedback to finish the story, that's for sure). People are quite free to not like something and to vote with their wallets. Except that not liking does not qualify them for suggesting ''fixes''. I mean sure they can suggest, it does not mean its valuable feedback.

The Night King being offed is not a good narrative, granted. Thing is, what would have been a good narrative ? I don't want to be a party popper, but fixes like ''and he fights zombies for 14 more episodes'' would have value in a world where time and budgets are infinite.

I completely disagree with you because one of this medium's aims is to sell books, which means that people have to like the storytelling and story well enough to buy the books. While they can vote by not purchasing the products, authors also take their audience's opinions into consideration for various reasons (increase the size of their audience, believe that the criticisms are helpful and insightful in improving their work, etc.). While you cannot please everyone, authors do consider audience opinion. They also ignore it at times, but that doesn't mean that giving said opinion is always invaluable to the author in question. In short: isn't the accepting or rejecting of constructive criticism up to the author to decide, not a member of the audience?

However, if an author creates products for a different purpose, then I think your criticism holds more weight.

[Varodoc]

I still don't understand why they didn't seize the opportunity to have a three-way battle in KL between Jon/Daenerys, Cersei, and the Night King. Were they afraid that it would get too confusing?

What a letdown. And here I thought that the sunny and carefree King's Landing would suffer the full terror of winter. I guess I was wrong. Do the people of KL even realize that winter has... supposedly... come?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I still don't understand why they didn't seize the opportunity to have a three-way battle in KL between Jon/Daenerys, Cersei, and the Night King. Were they afraid that it would get too confusing?

I don't see how anyone would dare attempt to weaponize the Night King. From the perspective of the Lannister's forces, if Cersei were to try to have the Night King and Jon/Dany kill each other, leaving a remaining faction to mop up, the chances that the Night King would defeat Jon/Dany and raise their forces and thereby become exponentially stronger is too great. If the Night King's forces reached Kingslanding, I don't see how it wouldn't turn into everyone vs the Night King anyway.

[ohiostate124]

Watch this gif from Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter and tell me if anything looks familiar

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HandsomeSi...con-mobile.mp4

[Endus]

I don't see how anyone would dare attempt to weaponize the Night King. From the perspective of the Lannister's forces, if Cersei were to try to have the Night King and Jon/Dany kill each other, leaving a remaining faction to mop up, the chances that the Night King would defeat Jon/Dany and raise their forces and thereby become exponentially stronger is too great. If the Night King's forces reached Kingslanding, I don't see how it wouldn't turn into everyone vs the Night King anyway.

From Cersei's perspective, if she thinks the Night King is real, the ideal solution would have been to head North, but delay your arrival so you show up in the aftermath of the Battle of Winterfell. Either the Starks took care of the Night King with massive casualties (true), and you can roll over them with your fresh-rested full-strength forces, or the Starks have died gloriously but in vain and have weakened the Night King and you can hopefully find a solution before he annihilates all life in Westeros.

Dicking around in King's Landing is just . . . spectacularly stupid. She's letting the Starks and Daenerys get their feet back underneath themselves after being overextended. That's a tactical error.

[Gorsameth]

From Cersei's perspective, if she thinks the Night King is real, the ideal solution would have been to head North, but delay your arrival so you show up in the aftermath of the Battle of Winterfell. Either the Starks took care of the Night King with massive casualties (true), and you can roll over them with your fresh-rested full-strength forces, or the Starks have died gloriously but in vain and have weakened the Night King and you can hopefully find a solution before he annihilates all life in Westeros.

Dicking around in King's Landing is just . . . spectacularly stupid. She's letting the Starks and Daenerys get their feet back underneath themselves after being overextended. That's a tactical error.

How do you arrive to a weakened army of the dead when they can be raised at will and are now standing on the bodies of an extra few 10k soldiers?

[Soulwind]

Watch this gif from Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter and tell me if anything looks familiar

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HandsomeSi...con-mobile.mp4

Unlike GoT, that movie was intended to be silly and over-the-top.

[Varodoc]

and you can hopefully find a solution before he annihilates all life in Westeros.

All life in the world*

The Night King was the only global threat in Game of Thrones.