[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Theoris]

The episode made me think of the climax to the Zandalar Forever cinematic. Just can't put my finger on why.

[Sarethion]

It would have, but the idea was that Surrender means she can't simply due that without looking like a despot.

I don't know about that. Executing your enemies wasn't that uncommon in the Seven Kingdoms, so I imagine most people wouldn't really care about that or see Danny as a despot because she killed her enemy. What did make her look like a tyrant though is burning down the whole city while the battle was already won.

Most likely Cersei would be put to trial, or potentially escape justice in some form by the time the army really seizes the city proper.

If Cersei had a way of escaping the city, I'd say that it would be easier for her to do so in the chaos of battle, not after the defenders have surrendered and her enemies roamed the city freely looking for her. Also... Daenerys is a queen - she doesn't really need to put Cersei on trial. She could just declare that by not submitting to her rule Cersei commited treason against the crown and execute her for that pretty much on the spot.

She just lost it because she ultimately failed at ending the war the way she wanted to in her mind. Its been an endless slog with little payout and no satisfaction. Her success feels entirely worthless and hollow. And everyone she came to 'save' is going to hate her for simply being a Targaryen, one that isn't even the proper heir to boot.

To put it in perspective, even if she got the throne, killed cersei the way she wanted to. The secret is out that Jon is the true heir; that means she will be contested the rest of her life without any means to back her claim to the throne. Marrying Jon would have solved this, but Jon no longer can love her in that capacity. Killing Jon is out of the question because then she becomes an usurper, and her rule is delegitimized completely.

So even by winning, shes lost. No amount of complacency will save her. No matter what she does, she has become the very thing she sought to destroy, a tyrant.

I agree with this.

I'm not against Daenerys going crazy or burning the city. That's fine. I get that she went through a lot since she came to Westeros, I get that it was enough to break her emotionally to a point where she just snapped. That's absolutely fine, no issues here. I'm just saying that I wish it wasn't the bells, but something else that pushed her over the edge.

[Harbour]

When the most memorable scene in the season is the duel of two third-important characters (Hound/Mountain) you would realize how shitty this season is.

[mauserr]

First of all... I think that after this episode there's no doubt that the leaks were legit. I guess all we have left now is to see the great finale in which Jon kills Daenerys and takes the black, leaving the kingdom to Tyrion and our new king - Bran "I don't want anymore and mostly live in the past" Stark. Sigh.

---

As for the actual episode... I'm not going to lie - I didn't like it, but before I explain why, let me mention some of the good parts, because luckily there were a couple of nice moments in this episode too:

1. I loved the horror of the city being destroyed. It was a little dragged out, sure, but overall it was both beautiful and terrifying to watch. The best part about it was how eventually the Lannister troops and Cersei were shown as "good guys" and I actually felt bad for them.

2. Arya and the Hound. They were literally the best thing about this episode. That scene where the Hound stops Arya from going after Cersei and she calls him "Sandor" and thanks him... Just perfect. A great end to a great story between two great characters. Then was the whole sequence of Arya trying to escape, while the Hound fought the Mountain. Yes, the latter was basically fanservice, but I liked it. Just as much as Arya trying to save that woman who saved her earlier. Good stuff.

3. Finally, I liked the scene Jaimie and Tyrion had together. It was touching and I'm really happy that Tyrion didn't "kind of forget" about basically saying goodbye to his older brother and the only real family he ever had.

---

Now, the bad stuff...

1. Drogon wrapped in the plot armor.

I guess Daenerys smartened up and put some of that plot armor on her last dragon before the battle. It was so bad I actually laughed. I mean - you say that a couple of ships were able to easily take down Rheagal flying high in the air and basically force Daenerys to retreat on Drogon, but now Danny just swooped in and destroyed the whole Iron Fleet and the city walls armed to the teeth with scorpions without any issues despite flying super close to them? What the actual fuck?

2. The "LOL Company".

The Golden Company, heralded as the best mercenaries the money could buy, literally didn't do anything in this episode. They didn't even put up a fight. They just stood there looking cool and then they were dead. Their leader died running, the survivors died running. Like come on... If you set up this deadly mercenary company that's presented as a legit threat in earlier episodes and invest time to show Cersei figure out how to buy them, at least give them a short battle scene, not just slaugther them in a few seconds...

3. The "big battle".

It was very lackluster. Yes, the scene where the gate blows up from inside looked cool, but that's about the only thing that was nice about the whole battle sequence. The LOL Company didn't even put up a fight, the Iron Fleet burned in a few seconds, the scorpions on the walls didn't do anything... Even the Lannister forces, who at least tried to resist here and there, were ultimately just there to be slaugthered. I get it, this was supposed to be a decisive victory to emphasize that Daenerys didn't need to burn the city and make the viewer feel worse that she decided to do so. Fine, but you can't win a battle that just isn't there - and this wasn't a battle, it was a slaugther.

4. The elephant in the room - the city surrenders.

Let's recap - Daenerys used Drogon (now with +10 to Evasion plot armor) to rotflstomp the Iron Fleet and the city walls. The LOL Company and the Lannister troops were slaugthered, the walls breached... All of that in like what - 5 minutes? We saw clearly that Jon's army was comfortably marching through the city, the remaining Lannister forces were surrendering en masse, the bells were rung to signal that the city defenders give up. Just before she snapped, Daenerys was already victorious. King's Landing was basically hers. All that was left was to accept the surrender, take prisoners and march to the Red Keep to seize Cersei.

Why would I have a problem with that? Well, ever since Daenerys landed in Westeros, we've been told that the only reason she doesn't just attack King's Landing is because she doesn't want to risk killing innocent civilians. Today we've seen that Daenerys was perfectly capable of achieving a complete victory and taking the city with minimal collateral damage. She didn't burn the city, she didn't murder innocent people - her victory was overall really clean, much cleaner in fact than most sieges and city assaults in history.

Now, if Daenerys was able to take the city without any effort and with minimal collateral damage now when her forces were depleted in the North, two of her Dragons were killed and the enemy had the time to build a ton of scorpions and hire a huge mercenary company - why couldn't she have done it earlier when her advantage over Cersei was even bigger?

Back then there wasn't even any need for a battle. Daenerys could have just taken Drogon into the harbor to burn the Iron Fleet and destroy the city walls on her way back. Heck, it would have been even easier, because there weren't nearly as many scorpions... After that, just ask Cersei to parlay, show her the wight and basically say this: "well, we have this to deal with in the North, so I'll make it quick - your city defenses are destroyed, your fleet is gone, I have a lot more troops and two dragons that you have no way to deal with - surrender the city now, commit your armies to our expedition north and I will let you live out the rest of your life in an exile; either that or we'll storm your defenseless city tomorrow and kill you".

I doubt Cersei would refuse, but even if she did, Danny could have just taken the dragons on a couple of rounds above the city and burn some of that desert that apparently is around King's Landing now for extra fear value, while Varys uses his spies to distribute a message to the Lannister soldiers and the people - "we're only after Cersei, surrender now and you will be shown mercy". I bet that a lot, if not most would surrender and the Unsullied could just march into the city and take it without any issues. Bonus points for securing the Lannister forces for the expedition north.

So why didn't Daenerys do it? Or more importantly, why didn't Tyrion advise her to try something like that instead of constantly stopping her from attacking King's Landing? He's supposed to be smart. I mean, he was smart, because last season the writers have purposefully made him a total idiot that's only capable of giving bad advice that does nothing, but harm her queen, so that the instead of having a story that actually makes sense, the show could end with a surprise twist where it's Cersei, not the Night King, who is the final "villain". Sigh.

5. Northern Bloodlust.

I get that soldiers are often carried away in battle. I understand that Greyworm is not in a good place and wants blood. I get that the Unsullied are loyal to him and that the Dothraki are generally happy to kill and rape and other... stuff. Fine. But soldiers from the North and the Vale who have just been traumatized by fighting the dead and had to endure a long march for a queen they don't generally like? Why on Earth would they join the slaugther when their commander who they've previously elected as their king straight up orders them to stop? What? I get that a couple could have went berserk, but the vast majority of northern armies should have stayed in line with Jon.

6. The Ceiling Boss.

I went into this episode knowing that Cersei is going to die and thinking that the Night King dying to Arya's "Teleportation Strike" was the worst villain death D&D could muster, but man, was I wrong. My worst case scenario was that Arya will kill Cersei, but when I saw that the one who got to do the deed was the Ceiling Boss, I wish that it was Arya. Or anyone else. The Hound, Greyworm, Daenerys on the dragon, Jaimie... Not the f...ing ceiling. So disappointing.

7. The Golden Hand problem.

Let me get this out of the way - I'm fine that Jaimie abandoned Brienne to go rescue his sister/love of his life and their child. Despite what people might say about "throwing his character development and redemption arc out of the window", it actually made perfect sense as I've previously explained in this topic. In short, Jaimie was always set up as a dramatic character that can't catch a break and whatever he does, it will not lead to a happy ending. He has also always valued his family above all else. It would have felt more out of place if he just chilled in the North while Danny murdered his sister and their child. I have no doubts that Jaimie heading down to King's Landing felt bad for people who liked him, but that choice made perfect sense and it wasn't "bad writing" - just the outcome that we didn't like. However...

I get why Jaimie agreed to Tyrion's plan, even though chances are that Cersei wouldn't listen to him anyway. Whatever, let him try. What struck me as odd in this episode is Jaimie's journey to King's Landing. First of all, Jaimie has a headstart on Danny's army. Moreover, armies usually march a lot slower than a single person. So how on Earth did Jaimie reach King's Landing just before the attack started and not literally hours earlier? The only somewhat feasible explanation is that Tyrion fucked up and didn't provide Jaimie with a horse, though if this was the case then Tyrion is even dumber than I've thought. Why? Well, Tyrion's whole plan relied on Jaimie convincing Cersei to give up - if so, it would make sense to get Jaimie as much time with Cersei as humanly possible, so that he'd have more time to get her to listen. This could be achieved by getting Jaimie to King's Landing as fast as possible by, for instance, making sure he has a horse waiting for him. And if Tyrion was able to plant a boat near the city, he should have also been able to get one horse ready for Jaimie. But even if this was the case, most of Daenerys's army was marching on foot, so Jaimie should have been able to easily outrun them. Especially considering that they likely weren't that far from the city.

But nope, Jaimie had to arrive right before the battle for the extra drama. So now we don't just have a show that allows characters to teleport, but also slows them down to a snail's pace if that's convenient for the plot. Awesome. But wait, there's more. Jaimie says he was captured, because the northeners have seen the golden hand, even though he somehow managed to get all the way north and into Winterfell before... Anyway - why didn't Jaimie show his golden hands to the guards the moment he entered the city, but waited until the gates closed? It's not like the Lannister troops would have killed him on the spot, even if Cersei officially declared her brother an enemy of the state. For f... sake, Jaimie, just show the damn hand to literally the first guard you see. The worst that will happen is that they will seize you and escort you straight to Cersei, which is what you want. Like, come on...

8. The bells.

Finally... The big issue that most people will be angry about - Denerys. I liked her and I'm sad to see her become full on Mad Queen, but... I get it - she lost Jorah and Missandei, two of her closest friends. Plus two of her dragons/children are dead. Plus the people she was risking her life for don't love or even appreciate her. Finally the man she loves has a better claim to the throne, putting her life's goal at risk. And now also doesn't want to be with her, because they're family. No matter how you put it, that's way more than enough to break Danny.

She didn't go full on Mad Queen, because she's a Targaryen and her coin landed on the wrong side - she did it, because of all the trauma the writers put her through this season. It's a completely rational outcome - just like with Jaimie: it's not bad writing, just the outcome many won't like. Perhaps it should have been less rushed, the whole "Imma fly and burn civilians" part could have been skipped and some steps along the way (like Missandei's capture) could have been better written, but personally I'm fine with this development. I mean - I wish it was different, but it was actually one of the few things this season that were actually pretty well set up and make sense.

What I've hated, though, was that the straw that broke the camel's back were the bells... How? Why? Why not make some Lannister loyalist charge and kill Greyworm (he's useless now anyway) while Daenerys watches from that building? Or have Cersei detonate some wildfire on Danny's toops? Anything that could actually trigger Danny, not some stupid bells ringing to signal the city's surrender. Sigh.

---

Overall, this was a really stunning episode from the visual side of things, but even though it has some nice moments, it once again gets dragged down by some really stupid and terrible writing, some examples of which I've listed above. It's a shame. Game of Thrones used to be this one show that made sense and even though sometimes it hurt your feelings, you enjoyed watching it. This season, though... It just hurts to watch. Bummer.

P.S. I know it's too long and nobody will read it, but damn... I really had to vent after this episode.

Rhaegal was quite badly wounded (tattered wing, a deeply clawed chest) after fighting Sindragosa Viserion during the Long Night. Drogon was only stabbed a few hundred times by a bunch of toothpicks and had time to recover after that before Daenerys flew him into the final siege of the city. They were also "surprised" the episode before, now she was the one doing the surprise, so they didn't have time to prepare and turn their scorpions fast enough.

This episode was much more realistic though, these fucking scorpions can't and couldn't have turned so fast to actually be able to easily shoot down a fast dragon. Those weapons were sort of a "luck out" kind of a weapon. You get lucky, you get the dragon down, but if you don't get lucky, you're fucked because the dragon can fly fast and can change altitude whenever it feels like it while also breathing fire at you simoultaneously.

[Sarethion]

now she was the one doing the surprise, so they didn't have time to prepare

They seemed pretty prepared to me, though.

Anyway, that's a fair argument, I'll give you that. Rhaegal was wounded and they were surprised (even though it's kinda iffy that Danny didn't see the fleet, but whatever), but I still feel that it would have been better if Rhaegal either died in the Long Night or was shot down today.

[Ihavewaffles]

A better episode, not too many hot takes because it was very predictable. I just thought the invasion would initially fail this episode but conclude the next.

Jon is an idiot as always. It was good seeing his face when he realized that he helped the monster everyone warned him about.

I wish we say a bit more of Jamie's loyalty to Cersei. I never left her side but just wanted to see the Wights dead. I wanted Dany's coalition to see him with Cersei.

I expected Varys attempt to kill Dany to be a little better but I knew his days were numbered.

Euron's death was a Euron as you could get

The Hound was great this episode. I liked his farewell to Arya. His fight vs Darth Vader Gregor was cool. The battle seemed kind of pointless though since Cersei's reign was over at that point. All fanservice, I ain't mad.

How they went from being able to hit dragons with pinpoint precision to Drogon not getting a scratch is just something I had to not think about.

Where did they find Dothraki?

Why did Northerners participate in Dany's genocide?


Its going to be something talking to all the people who say Dany as a saint despite the foreshadowing of her going mad since day 1. A lot of people are going to swear it came out of nowhere even though Dany's own dialogue expressed how she felt. Westeros has no attachment to her but here is trying to conquer them. They dont know her and have no reason to follow her but fear of the dragons. No one in Westeros loves her and yet the only thing she wants in the world is to rule over them. Mad Dany makes 100% sense.

Cersei was a more benevolent ruler than Dany. Cersei was just extremely selfish.

Lol did u forget eddark stark, red wedding, boltons etc? Now the north are ridd of their northern n southern enemies. The circle is complete.

How is she any "madder" than aegeon the conquer? Ruthlessness doesn't = madness. You should go watch harry potter or something, it's brutality that rules the world.

Always go big dick


Tywin sacked the city, Stannis would have done so too. Also, imagine what they would have done with dragons...
Remember when Tywin ordered the common folk to be massacred? "Let them know what happens when they side with the enemy"



Only one was a mad queen, cersei..

Another gem from tywin, 2:13, sending out the mountain..

[mauserr]

They seemed pretty prepared to me, though.

Anyway, that's a fair argument, I'll give you that. Rhaegal was wounded and they were surprised (even though it's kinda iffy that Danny didn't see the fleet, but whatever), but I still feel that it would have been better if Rhaegal either died in the Long Night or was shot down today.

Yeah, it was kinda BS, the only reason Rhaegal died was because of his wounds and being "surprised" while they were just fucking around in the sky. Once they were aware of the fleet Drogon was able to outmaneuver the scorpion spears, was also able to dodge the 1tap spear from the nightking that made Sindragosa Viserion his mount. So it's entirely normal for him to be able to outmaneuver the fleet.

I feel like the only time Drogon could have died would've been if he was flying in at them and they saw him from a long distance away, thus being able to like point all their scorpions in his direction and fire them all at once (since there were a lot of them assuming each ship had one mounted on it), then it could've been really hard to dodge them all even if Drogon wanted to either go up or down, since gravity would be dragging these spears down over time so it would be harder to dodge them, especially if they all staggered the firing so not all spears would be in the same spot/altitude.

Lol did u forget eddark stark, red wedding, boltons etc? Now the north are ridd of their northern n southern enemies. The circle is complete.

How is she any "madder" than aegeon the conquer? Ruthlessness doesn't = madness. You should go watch harry potter or something, it's brutality that rules the world.

Tywin sacked the city, Stannis would have done so too. Also, imagine what they would have done with dragons...
Remember when Tywin ordered the common folk to be massacred? "Let them know what happens when they side with the enemy"

Only one was a mad queen, cersei..

Yup, Cersei doomed the city. They got an ego boost by killing a wounded dragon and thought they could do the same to Drogon, but this time they didn't have any element of surprise whatsoever, and that was what gave them the first kill. That delusion brought ruin to the city. Felt good seeing Cersei watch the city get melted down by dragonfire and her entire weaponry being powerless against a healthy dragon.

Drogon is also the biggest and the strongest of the three.

[jakeic]

Yeah, it was kinda BS, the only reason Rhaegal died was because of his wounds and being "surprised" while they were just fucking around in the sky. Once they were aware of the fleet Drogon was able to outmaneouver the scorpion spears, was also able to dodge the 1tap spear from the nightking that made Sindragosa Viserion his mount. So it's entirely normal for him to be able to outmaneouver the fleet.

The only reason Rhaegal died was so Jon wasn’t on a dragon so Danaerys could burn the city unmolested.

[PACOX]

Lol did u forget eddark stark, red wedding, boltons etc? Now the north are ridd of their northern n southern enemies. The circle is complete.

How is she any "madder" than aegeon the conquer? Ruthlessness doesn't = madness. You should go watch harry potter or something, it's brutality that rules the world.

Always go big dick


Tywin sacked the city, Stannis would have done so too. Also, imagine what they would have done with dragons...
Remember when Tywin ordered the common folk to be massacred? "Let them know what happens when they side with the enemy"



Only one was a mad queen, cersei..

No one is talking about the tactics Dany used while people were actually fighting her army and putting up a resistance.

Everyone had already threw down their arms and surrendered. That Dany did after was go street to street murdering innocent civilians. That's why she is 'mad'. Then for the Northerns to just go along with it was out of character. Or are you saying that Jon should joined in on the raping, looting, and pillaging?

[Cannibalus]

Keep was destroyed and instead of snow it was ash falling.

Althugh you can clearly see it's snow. Ash doesn't pile up like that or is as white.

And according to Vanity Fair, who recently combed through the Game of Thrones scripts that are on display at the Writers Guild of America West library, the season two scripts hold the answer.

The script reads: “She looks up. The roof is missing and snow falls from the sky. [. . .] At the far end of the room, the Iron Throne waits for her, dusted with snow. Her dream made manifest.”

[Ragedaug]

Since the leaks are legit, is it fair to ask for spoiler tags before adding leaked future episode information or does the **"Spoiler Discussion*** also include legit leaked information that hasn't aired yet? Was looking forward to seeing what folks had to say about Episode 5, but kinda scared that it will mostly be about episode 6. Probably just safer at this point to just come back next week I suppose.

[Amaterasu65]

Ok so Hound remains the only completely likeable character. Maybe Arya.

Honorable mentions to Cersei and Jaime. Always loved Cersei, Lena was splendid. I felt sad when they died. Dany's next to hit the grave.

[Ihavewaffles]

No one is talking about the tactics Dany used while people were actually fighting her army and putting up a resistance.

Everyone had already threw down their arms and surrendered. That Dany did after was go street to street murdering innocent civilians. That's why she is 'mad'. Then for the Northerns to just go along with it was out of character. Or are you saying that Jon should joined in on the raping, looting, and pillaging?

As if she should trust lannisters, n what if war had been win for lannisters, would they have spared danny's forces? They got too much blood on their hands, also this will give satisfaction to the reach n dorne n riverlands n stormlands who hate the lannisters.

As for jon snow, he is too naive, soft, n good hearted for that world...he doesn't fit in.

[Tekkommo]

Why are people shocked at the Northman carrying on killing after the surrender? Have you forgotten what the Lannisters have done to them in the past?

Are you under the false illusion that they are all like Ned/Jon?

I wouldn't exactly call Dany a mad Targaryen yet as well, we'll see how she is acting next episode before that. At the moment she is just extremely pissed off. She is not the first person on this show to massacre civilians.

[ophion1990]

Why are people shocked at the Northman carrying on killing after the surrender? Have you forgotten what the Lannisters have done to them in the past?

Are you under the false illusion that they are all like Ned/Jon?

I wouldn't exactly call Dany a mad Targaryen yet as well, we'll see how she is acting next episode before that. At the moment she is just extremely pissed off. She is not the first person on this show to massacre civilians.

I agree, I think that's just it. The north hasn't forgotten that it was a Lannister who ordered the beheading of Ned Stark, who seems to be the last Stark that everyone in the north respected and liked. Ofcourse they're itching to pay the Lannisters back, it really didn't seem like it was OOC for them.

[Amaterasu65]

Loved this episode, realistic, not the stupid shit with Euron being op.

FIRE N BLOOD!

Oh, remember that king's landing cheered when they took eddard stark's head, turned against tyrion after he saved them from stannis.
Sometimes u need a clean slate Now she will get 7 kingdoms. From Dragonstone she could conquer Essos as well.

Fire n blood, give men no choice is how aegon da conquer created a dynasty. But i guess arya will f00k it up so incompetent jon snow can "rule"...

I really hate to break it to your dany fanboy brain, but that's not gonna happen.

[Shurkien]

give men no choice is how aegon da conquer created a dynasty

But he let the ppl live who surrendered.
Dany just "burn 'em all"

[Doctor Amadeus]

Never watched a single full episode of GoT but honestly people going on and on about it all over social media, I had to read and watch the clips people talked about. Honestly GoT did an awesome job.

Give people what they should have not what they want, when I read about the context of the Woman on the Dragon I was blown away, I say bravo much respect to the writers.

[Sorshen]

Dany was never good. The shock value of her going full genocidal mostly comes from the rushed nature of season 7/8 tho. Would've preferred a slower transition, but whatever.
The thing that really bothered me was the 'lulz, guess we just rape and murder everyone now' attitude of all the footmen instead of just retreating.

Oh, and throwing Jamie's whole character arc in the dumpster.

[Skulltaker]

I'm resubbing to WoW after this episode. I need something with a relativly good story after this.