Bring back TBC raid progression.

[sicness]

Anyone who thinks the BC raid model was better for the game either didn't raid in BC or were overly lucky in being in a top server guild. I mean no offense by that, but it's just so obvious that the current system is better for the overall raiding community than how BC was designed.

[Cognition]

No-one's ever been proud of clearing content when it's not top-tier anymore, because it's not an achievement to brag about when it's old.

Ahum... LOL

When my guild killed Rag about 5 months before TBC came out, everybody was amazed and it was the best feeling ever, ppl from other guilds congradulated us, even guilds who had almost cleared BWL already. It WAS an achievement and ppl DID brag about it and other were happy to hear it, even tho it wasnt current content, current being naxx 40. The same story goes with killing Kael/Vashj /Archimond/ Illidan.. no matter WHEN you killed them, the start of the expac, or 3 months before wrath, your guild was the shit for a small time, and you had moved up in the world.

I remember people braging in trade chat that their guild just downed kael - that was when BT was the "current" highest progression. That whole feeling died with WOTLK, nobody would brag about killing kel'Thuzad, when Yogg'saron was the "current". They broke the feeling. As for your statement, that tells me you must have started playing in Wrath. and you are well off with that blind statement.

[kratos23]

completely agree with the op. this game has become so trivial. but this forum is full of scrubs who like it when they getting it all shoved up in the ass without putting any work in it.

[Rork]

Anyone who thinks the BC raid model was better for the game either didn't raid in BC or were overly lucky in being in a top server guild.

You are wrong

[Exera]

You are wrong

No actually he is 100% right, the TBC raiding formula was terrible.

[Rork]

No actually he is 100% right, the TBC raiding formula was terrible.

Well no he is wrong, I wasn't in a top guild and I did raid in TBC and really enjoyed it ... so he is wrong.

[Deleted]

the raids were not all self contained lore.... did none of u play Wc3. u dont even have to read the books to know how kael and vashj and kil'jaeden were all connected. cause u know besides ICC which isntance had lore in WOTLK. in Cata how would u even know about BWD? bastion is a bit differnt if u do all the quests out there but still. none of the current teir in cata really has anything to do with firelands.

another thing even back in BC u carried about half your raid and u could make it through hyjal and BT.
also heroic modes are a joke. its so blizzard can be lazy and make more money on a game they dont care about anymore.

That's it, i'll bring out my BS hammer now.

SLAM!

You see, first of all, you're right that Kael, Vashj and Kil'Jaeden is and was connected. That's as correct as it can be.
But your point falls to the floor when you reach Wrath. Naxx, yes, that was just a reuse to fill out the demands of a content patch for a new expansion. A lot complained, i understand, lorewise that was a fail.

To jump in time, TOTC was also a major fail lorewise.

Ulduar, however, IS part of World of Warcraft lore. You see, just because WC 1-2-3 was the first games created about the warcraft world, it does not mean that it's ONLY that they should follow. One of the WoW books describes the old gods, and Yogg-Saron is actually mentioned as well. Therefore, it makes him part of Warcraft lore, and he makes sense, lorewise, exactly like C'thun and the upcoming old god, ehm, whatever his name was.

In cata, the point falls even more. This expansion links together with the entire Twilight Cult and Deathwing. Deathwing, allied with the Cult, brought Ragnaros to Hyjal to cause devastation and to attack the world tree and end the realm's life. We "defeated" him, and banished him to the firelands, in which we are now to enter to finally slay him. How is this not connected with the other raid instances? Deathwing brought back Nefarian and then Nefarian created Blackwing Descent. BoT is the Cult we're fighting, allied with dragons and Cho'Gall which is under control by Deathwing. Al'akir has been corrupted by Deathwing, to serve him and eliminate the other elemental lords, with Ragnaros as well, maybe even against him to plot a elemental war, if that's Deathwing's ultimate thought. Point?

It's all connected together as pre-events to the final Deathwing raid later on. Maybe even connected to the new old god...
Therefore, raid instances in cata makes perfect sense.

Heroic modes are not a waste of time, to be honest with you. It's giving the hardcore raiders something to do, while the normal modes are for those, casual players who should have a chance to look at the raid too. Why, o why have this anything at all to do with Blizzard being lazy? That's like saying not fixing a bumping road with holes is because the authorities are too lazy to fix it. But in reality, they are focusing on other aspects like keeping the city clean. This is normal humanity, and this leads me to these words:

"You can't please everyone."

With that said, i'm done.

[Bloodfire]

I don't understand the whining about this all.

"Bring that back, nerf sucks..."

Are you NUTS? You mean we have to stop do a normal things instead get ourselves into monitor (i.e. game) and throw away everything except for eating, and going to W.C.? For just clearing 1 raid, by raiding 8 - 12 hours in a day. Or maybe more. I think no one will like such kind of idea. Besides, if you want so, you could write a letter to Blizzard to open such kind of special servers for you, and reroll all whiners to there WITHOUT a possibility to return. I think that will brainwash those idiots's minds and make them understand that times have changed. If you don't like this, why makes you think that you're the MOST SUPER UPER DUPER person, whose's opinion weights more than everyone else?

P.S.: I think everyone remember the mindblowing quest line of BT, when most of times was -EPGP/DKP because the tank forgot the Medallion of Karabor in his bank. Are you really to go back to these times? Guess no.
So stop whining or quit WoW forever. Nobody will cry if you leave.

[sicness]

Well no he is wrong, I wasn't in a top guild and I did raid in TBC and really enjoyed it ... so he is wrong.

How was it better exactly? Do you have something to actually support this other than just saying it was better?

The system favored the top guilds so heavily that it was extremely difficult for anyone who was leading a guild below them. It favored guild hopping due to attunements and it favored players using guilds to gear up so they could move on to another guild. It was nothing but bad and for the most part everything they've done in the game since that has effected raiding has been much better for the game.

I raided in BC too, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. But I also helped run a raiding guild and know the difficulties that came with it that were so ridiculous at times that it made progression seem worthless.

[Kaneiac]

Thanks OP. I remembered that I loved having to clear TK and SSC to get a new recruit attuned to Hyjal and eventually BT.

Wait, no, I didn't. Fuck the BC model. If you think that anyone who was in BT/Hyjal/Sunwell honestly went back and did those two for the fun of it, you're delusional. The current tier has always been the tier that mattered.

[sadface]

This is blizzard

How many players got to see naxx in vanilla 5%
How many players got to see sunwell in tbc 5%
How many players got to see ICC heroic lich king in wotlk 5%
How many Players got to see Nefarian in cataclysm EVERYBODY because its easy.. YOU JELLY?

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

I go through the grueling process of attuning my Paladin for a raid. It takes possibly weeks and a great deal of effort. Half way through progression of the raid my GM decides he'd like some of us to bring our alts instead. In TBC the raids would have to wait weeks for us to earn attunement again. Very unpractical. Glad it's gone. Love the new system

[Kaneiac]

This is blizzard

How many players got to see naxx in vanilla 5%
How many players got to see sunwell in tbc 5%
How many players got to see ICC heroic lich king in wotlk 5%
How many Players got to see Nefarian in cataclysm EVERYBODY because its easy.. YOU JELLY?

Wait...you're comparing heroic LK to normal Nefarian now?

Boy, you guys never quit. Are you claiming Cata is easier than Wrath?

[sadface]

Why would you create content and players not be able to see it?

THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE BRO

[Theronus]

This is blizzard

How many players got to see naxx in vanilla 5%
How many players got to see sunwell in tbc 5%
How many players got to see ICC heroic lich king in wotlk 5%
How many Players got to see Nefarian in cataclysm EVERYBODY because its easy.. YOU JELLY?

Except those were the last tier from each expansion, as Nefarian/Cho'gall are the first.
Your logic failed.

[rhorle]

This is blizzard

How many players got to see naxx in vanilla 5%
How many players got to see sunwell in tbc 5%
How many players got to see ICC heroic lich king in wotlk 5%
How many Players got to see Nefarian in cataclysm EVERYBODY because its easy.. YOU JELLY?

Naxx in vanilla would be a heroic mode now. Sunwell pre-nerf would be a Heroic mode now (since after nerf plenty saw it). You compare 3 heroic-level encounters to a non-heroic encounter. No wonder one is way easier then the other 3.

---------- Post added 2011-05-25 at 08:43 AM ----------

To jump in time, TOTC was also a major fail lorewise.

Not anymore of a failure then any other raid. Remember the argent tourney was supposed to be in crystal song forest. It had to be moved because Dalaran was a resource hog and the tourney would have but to much strain on the servers being so close to Dalaran. The tourney fits perfectly with the lore of Crystal Song and the lore of the Argent Crusade. Most medieval tourneys were meant as much to train as they were for entertainment.

[Rork]

How was it better exactly? Do you have something to actually support this other than just saying it was better?

The system favored the top guilds so heavily that it was extremely difficult for anyone who was leading a guild below them. It favored guild hopping due to attunements and it favored players using guilds to gear up so they could move on to another guild. It was nothing but bad and for the most part everything they've done in the game since that has effected raiding has been much better for the game.

I raided in BC too, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. But I also helped run a raiding guild and know the difficulties that came with it that were so ridiculous at times that it made progression seem worthless.

I think it was better because it was a continuous progression, I'm really not into this heroic thing, I like discovering new bosses new places this tier (elevator thing push the button to go to the next tier) feels very bad immersion wise.

And I WASN'T in a top guild did karazhan over and over before merging with an other guild to do 25 ... we managed to progress it was very difficult and very long but it's a mmorpg no ???

I don't say everything was perfect but better sure it was.

[Deleted]

I'll never understand the appeal in downing a boss, which effectively has had its legs broken, blind folded and arms selotaped to its sides.

Whilst I agree that Heroic Modes are semi-necessary, I despise them bitterly. This isn't me being elitist, I have never played a game through twice on different difficulty settings once I finish it first time, I know what's going to happen, all the appeal and mystery is completely taken away as you know precisely what's comming, only it'll be a bit trickier to beat.

Currently, there are FOUR different ways to down each boss, be it 10 or 25 man, normal or heroic. Is that really appealing?

The TBC raid model wasn't appealing to all, but it certainly was what you'd expect from an RPG / MMO game. Zelda wouldn't be the same for example, if you went straight into the final dungeon - the fun comes from progressing through the story, fighting your way to the top. There was no shame during TBC or Vanilla to be doing bosses perhaps a tier behind other guilds, as one poster has mentioned, downing Ragnaros (the equivalent to say Kel'Thuzad in Naxx, or Cho'Gall / Nefarian during Cataclysm end-game) during Vanilla was an impressive achievement, and marked your guild out.

Whilst you might all flame the OP, I would have the TBC system back in a heartbeat, not because I'm trying to be elitist, but I want my GAME back. It's like playing call of duty online, and every time there's a new map pack, the old maps are dressed up like clowns and every weapon deals 20% less damage. Nobody therefore plays them, and instead is solely interested in the new things.

Don't any of you see the appeal in a game where there is excessive quantities of end-game content to look forward to rather than an individual flavour of the mont raid?

[Cognition]

Well no he is wrong, I wasn't in a top guild and I did raid in TBC and really enjoyed it ... so he is wrong.

And you are spot on. I know countless people who played both casual and pro and they all agree that TBC was better. Hell i know people that didnt even raid, and just agree that the current give away gear is a joke.

[sicness]

I think it was better because it was a continuous progression, I'm really not into this heroic thing, I like discovering new bosses new places this tier (elevator thing push the button to go to the next tier) feels very bad immersion wise.

And I WASN'T in a top guild did karazhan over and over before merging with an other guild to do 25 ... we managed to progress it was very difficult and very long but it's a mmorpg no ???

I don't say everything was perfect but better sure it was.

You can still do continuous progression, the difference is players have a choice of whether they want to or not and that's how games should be. They should not be limiting content only to people who start it as soon as the game is released or people who have more time to dedicate to progressing.

---------- Post added 2011-05-25 at 04:47 AM ----------

And you are spot on. I know countless people who played both casual and pro and they all agree that TBC was better. Hell i know people that didnt even raid, and just agree that the current give away gear is a joke.

And I know countless people who have played both and agree that BC was terrible for running a raiding guild. Your personal experience with people's opinion on the matter doesn't justify your argument.