Affliction and Proper Use of Dot Applications with Trinket Procs

[rap87]

I'm typically always within the top 2 dps and top 4 dps in 10s/25s. I read elitist jerks and all of the class guides and properly set up my addons to help me accomplish my goals. With that said I generally feel on top of my class. However, recently when interviewing with some more professional guilds I ran across a bit of information I hadn't considered and wanted to clarify it. He liked my knowledge of the class and was happy to see I gemed and reforged correctly. When were were getting into what separated a good from a great warlock though, he was talking about timing cooldowns with trinket procs and such and I'd like to step my game up to that level and understand how to do it appropriately.

With that said, I've set up Need to Know to show my trinket procs and the ICDs of the trinkets. From what I understand the key is to try to get at least one trinket to proc in the beginning of the fight pretty quickly and apply Unstable Affliction and then Bane of Doom so it can benefit from the increased spellpower and then try to reapply UA again with the trinkets still going.

My main question is say after a few casts you feel you've waited long enough and you trinkets haven't procced so you apply your dots. If you get your 2 trinkets or 1 to proc should you say reapply bane of doom after 15 secs? That way you at least get 1 tick off not wasting that time its been on...but quickly getting the higher spellpower version up? I'm thinking UA won't be a big problem because of its short renewal time? Thanks for the help? Also I imagine the best time to use Demon Soul is with 2 trinkets up and then again below 25%? Thanks

[Norzaki]

When you reapply UA on new buff, you are gaining DPET for the fresh UA, but loosing cast time for this UA instead of doing something else. If we take SB (the lowest DPET spell in rotation), with reasonable gears SB DPET is around 9k. DPET of UA with reasonable gear is around 72k. If you are using ~1 second UA cast, reapplying UA only pays off when the buff increases DPET of UA by more than 9k (cost of one second cast of SB). That is - you need at least 13% damage increase buff in order to consider reaplying UA. BoD requires something like 8% damage increase buff in order to be considered for re-casting. BoA - you should not recast this one anyway. And your corruption will be refreshed automatically by Haunt (no need to bother loosing GCD for recasting it)
Means that if you get something really strong (like Engulfing Magic or Essence of Red), you want to recast your dots since it will worth it. If is a single trinket proc, you may consider to recast BoD if you didn't lose your DI stacks in a mean time, but recasting UA may actually reduce your DPS in most of cases. And if it is your weapon enchant proc, then recasting your DoTs will be a direct DPS loss. Going further: if you get both DMCV and HBell procs at the same time - recasting UA and BoD will pay off when you recast your DoTs once, even if you lost DI, but if you recast them second time during double trinket buffs - you will be loosing DPS as result (because you cut down DPET of first recast of your DoTs). Demon Soul: Felhunter usually give enough DPET increase for both UA and BoD (the case when it doesn't worth recasting under Demon Soul: Felhunter is when you suddenly lost your stacks of DI that was on you previously)... And if you managed to get several procs at the same time and press your Demon Soul without loosing DI stacks, you may want to let your high-proc BoD to fall off the target instead of refreshing it before the last tick (ex. DMCV+HBELL+Demon Soul will increase BoD tick around 14-15k - enough for up to 1.5 second delay in reapply of BoD)...

All in all - in normal situations (without getting some uber buffs like engulfing magic or essence of red) to correctly recast your DoTs without loosing your DPS, you need to be plugged directly into the server (0 lag) and have machine reaction on when to use your on-use CDs, plus you'll need quite a bit of luck on top of that.

[infernity]

so you're saying that without an outside actual damage buff, or unless you happen to get all your procs off at one go, it's best of to leave your dots as is?

[Jessicka]

Procs will last more than long enough until you refresh your DoTs anyway, so it's very unlikely to be worth refreshing anything early, other than perhaps Bane of Doom because of it's very long duration.

Also worth noting that if you use Fel Flame because of Fel Spark, or through movement that too will refresh UA. To be honest, if you start getting caught up in such minutiae you're at risk of refreshing stuff all the time and end up loosing more damage than you could ever hope to gain.

[Norzaki]

so you're saying that without an outside actual damage buff, or unless you happen to get all your procs off at one go, it's best of to leave your dots as is?

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Every time you recast - you gains something and you loose something. With amount of possible buffs/debuffs combination its really difficult to keep track of what you already have on your target without some kind of addon. If you happen to recast your dots twice during normal DoT run duration - you will be missing lot more than with single time recast/refresh (that I was talking in the first post in this thread). Before 4.0, when it was possible to have corruption rolling, it was really important to recast it at the highest buffs state on me, so I made me a custom addon that kept the information about buffs state of my current corruption on the target and alerted me when I get higher buffs state in order to recast corruption (for rolling it). Since 4.0 this addon got broken and I didn't even care to fix it because we can't roll high mod DoT for more than one DoT duration anyway. If got you lucky enough with several procs on you at the same time, then go ahead and recast UA/BoD earlier (preferably also pressing some of your on use CDs + summon guardian as well if its out of CD).
Trying to recast your DoTs early on every buff you get, will only decrease your DPS (you will be loosing more than you gain with recasting your DoT, you will also end up rewriting higher mod DoT with lower DoT mod because you simply forgot what mods you had on your previous cast).

And as jessicka wrote - buffs usually have long enough duration so that you will be refreshing your UA anyway while you are still affected by these buffs.

[rap87]

Procs will last more than long enough until you refresh your DoTs anyway, so it's very unlikely to be worth refreshing anything early, other than perhaps Bane of Doom because of it's very long duration.

Also worth noting that if you use Fel Flame because of Fel Spark, or through movement that too will refresh UA. To be honest, if you start getting caught up in such minutiae you're at risk of refreshing stuff all the time and end up loosing more damage than you could ever hope to gain.

Yep, basically I'm a player that reads how to reforge, our rotation, and our proper opening and goes from there. It's worked out great and in general I feel just the way you stated. That if I get caught up in the little stuff I'll end up doing less. I just thought maybe I missed a gem that might get me to my simcraft number lol.

I think from this and another thread I posted that its Bane of Doom that is the one to really worry about as one guy had said his BoD goes from 15k ticks to 30k ticks. He mentioned not to worry about UA...which int KISS I intend to agree with. He did say this though that I wanted to clarify:

"rom your post it wasn't clear whether you're aware of this or not so I'll mention it. Once a dot is applied, its tick interval is determined until the dot falls off. This means that you can recast at any time without worrying about missing ticks.

Example: Cast bane of doom. 5 seconds later, procs hit, recast bane of doom. First tick of doom will come 10 seconds later (15 seconds after the initial cast)."

See I was under the impression your dots wouldn't clip as long as your casting it on the last tick, and that tick would roll into the new one. I'm unsure how to take this info. Basically it sounds to me like all I would lose is one GCD to re-cast BoD. And if all I need to do is watch out for 2 trinket procs and only recast BoD...thats pretty easy my trinkets proc all the time in the begin of a fight.

[Norzaki]

Unnecesary wasting GCDs and mana is bad (unnecessary waste of mana will also translate into another waste of GCD for the life tap).

Recasting the same DoT while it is still active on the target is using Refresh mechanics since 4.0. That means - the following tick of the existing dot will be moved to the next DoT duration. However, it is one and only one tick that will be moved by the refresh. If you recast BoD anywhere between two last ticks, the next BoD will be running for extra tick and you don't loose DPS (you just got freedom to use this GCD any time between two last ticks).
But if you recast BoD earlier (for example after the second tick) - you are using one GCD at least 15 seconds earlier than you should during this fight (GCD is minimum 1 second) and you are using more mana than what you actually should have used on this fight. Means - you've just spent this second+ on early refresh of BoD, while you could have used this second for casting shadow bolt with around 9k DPET, i.e. you did aprxomately 9k less damage on your target than you could have done otherwise. Now, let say you did 2nd refresh of BoD 5 seconds later.. i.e. even before the refreshed tick did any damage. Only one tick will be moved through both these BoDs refresh and resulting DPS loss will be even more. In this case - you've just wasted 2xGCDs, and wasted even more of your mana that means that you'll need to life tap even earlier (wasting one more GCDs)... that's already 3xGCDs that you could have avoided/postponed otherwise, which translates into around 27k less damage on your target...

[Penguin FTW]

For the record, essence of the red updates your dots without you having to recast them

[rap87]

Unnecesary wasting GCDs and mana is bad (unnecessary waste of mana will also translate into another waste of GCD for the life tap).

Recasting the same DoT while it is still active on the target is using Refresh mechanics since 4.0. That means - the following tick of the existing dot will be moved to the next DoT duration. However, it is one and only one tick that will be moved by the refresh. If you recast BoD anywhere between two last ticks, the next BoD will be running for extra tick and you don't loose DPS (you just got freedom to use this GCD any time between two last ticks).
But if you recast BoD earlier (for example after the second tick) - you are using one GCD at least 15 seconds earlier than you should during this fight (GCD is minimum 1 second) and you are using more mana than what you actually should have used on this fight. Means - you've just spent this second+ on early refresh of BoD, while you could have used this second for casting shadow bolt with around 9k DPET, i.e. you did aprxomately 9k less damage on your target than you could have done otherwise. Now, let say you did 2nd refresh of BoD 5 seconds later.. i.e. even before the refreshed tick did any damage. Only one tick will be moved through both these BoDs refresh and resulting DPS loss will be even more. In this case - you've just wasted 2xGCDs, and wasted even more of your mana that means that you'll need to life tap even earlier (wasting one more GCDs)... that's already 3xGCDs that you could have avoided/postponed otherwise, which translates into around 27k less damage on your target...

I think I understand what your saying hrensgory. About wasting mana and such, but I guess your getting a bit over my head on some of your explanations. Can you explain why this example would be good or bad as posted by someone in another thread:

This is true. Here's an example from my raid last night. Note when I first apply BoD and when the first tick occurs. The refresh is because all of my procs came up.

[22:02:56.794] Dotsalad casts Bane of Doom on Chimaeron
[22:02:57.234] Chimaeron afflicted by Bane of Doom from Dotsalad
[22:03:06.478] Dotsalad casts Bane of Doom on Chimaeron
[22:03:06.797] Chimaeron's Bane of Doom is refreshed by Dotsalad
[22:03:12.206] Dotsalad Bane of Doom Chimaeron 39398


I end up getting five 40k ticks out of that bane of doom where it normally would have been 20k.

*Me again* I mean this looks like they guy didn't lose anything but 1GCD and got 5 40k ticks...I think if I worked on the KISS method and just refreshed BoD when both trinkets were up at the same time, I'd end up doing more dps? Otherwise keep going with priority list as it is?

[Norzaki]

I end up getting five 40k ticks out of that bane of doom where it normally would have been 20k.

*Me again* I mean this looks like they guy didn't lose anything but 1GCD and got 5 40k ticks...I think if I worked on the KISS method and just refreshed BoD when both trinkets were up at the same time, I'd end up doing more dps? Otherwise keep going with priority list as it is?

I thought I've answered this in my first post to this thread...

When you reapply UA on new buff, you are gaining DPET for the fresh UA, but loosing cast time for this UA instead of doing something else. If we take SB (the lowest DPET spell in rotation), with reasonable gears SB DPET is around 9k. DPET of UA with reasonable gear is around 72k. If you are using ~1 second UA cast, reapplying UA only pays off when the buff increases DPET of UA by more than 9k (cost of one second cast of SB). That is - you need at least 13% damage increase buff in order to consider reaplying UA. BoD requires something like 8% damage increase buff in order to be considered for re-casting.
...
...

[Palmz]

For single target bosses you could always start by casting Agony, wait until your two trinket procs, power torrent, light-weave embroidery, Demon Soul and with your Volcanic Potion cast Doom. 95% of the time, as long as you didn't proc anything from Life Tap, etc pre-fight they all should line up together at the beginning of the fight. Fully raid buffed I will get 80k+ tick crits from Doom with ilvl 369 gear. It's well worth the wait.

To help clarify with the other posters, just cast normally. The ONLY time you want to waste a GCD to recast a DoT is if you get lucky with trinket procs again for Doom. But always wait until the 15 second mark to recast so you don't waste any DPS. You should always be casting, but being efficient. Following the priority list of course and you'll start to see top 10 parses like I do.

[rap87]

So Palmz, your casting Agony in the beginning to get a few ticks rolling quicker until you get the procs lined up for you bad ass doom, I'm assuming. After you get doom rolling with your procs then of course you only recast doom under 15secs as thats the last tic right?

[Palmz]

Yeah, I use agony in the beginning. It would be a dps loss to sit there and wait to cast doom, even if its 5-10 seconds but it's a pretty big dps boost to wait.

No, let doom finish like you would agony. Under the right circumstances, if I can cast a more powerful doom, assuming the bad ass doom is gone and I'm onto a "unbuffed" doom, I would wait until at least one tick of that unbuffed doom has ticked before I cast the buffed Doom. General rule is, if you need to recast Doom ( for a more powerful Doom), you wait for a tick before you recast. So it can be a 1 second wait to 14 seconds. More powerful I mean, if both trinkets proc and they usually do. Im mostly sold on my first doom. Mid fight, If I can get all stars to align again Ill do it, but typically I worry mostly about my first doom and just go with my rotation for the rest.

[rap87]

Yeah, I use agony in the beginning. It would be a dps loss to sit there and wait to cast doom, even if its 5-10 seconds but it's a pretty big dps boost to wait.

No, let doom finish like you would agony. Under the right circumstances, if I can cast a more powerful doom, assuming the bad ass doom is gone and I'm onto a "unbuffed" doom, I would wait until at least one tick of that unbuffed doom has ticked before I cast the buffed Doom. General rule is, if you need to recast Doom ( for a more powerful Doom), you wait for a tick before you recast. So it can be a 1 second wait to 14 seconds. More powerful I mean, if both trinkets proc and they usually do. Im mostly sold on my first doom. Mid fight, If I can get all stars to align again Ill do it, but typically I worry mostly about my first doom and just go with my rotation for the rest.

This is pretty much what I was already thinking to do, I just wanted to clarify my game plan. My last question for you be:

You say to let it fall off like Agony if its a buffed doom. I'm assuming this is because when you reapply doom that last tick that was buffed will get screwed for the lower stats of a new one? Correct?

Lastly, Bane ticks every 15 secs so your saying I should cast a new doom if it gets buffed for instance at the 45 sec mark for instance if I got 2 procs after I had casted an unbuffed doom? I understand this, my only question concerning this is, when you get more haste and this gives you more dot tics, does this change the timing off the ticks from 15secs any? And according to Dotsalad's logic it seems he didn't wait at all and got 5 ticks all buffed? Unsure how that is the case...

[Palmz]

I'm not sure what Dotsalad did there too tbh. BoD isn't actually modified by haste so dot ticks will always be 15 seconds. In the end you'll be wasting time and dps recasting BoD after ticks you "might" think would be a dps increase. If you don't get two trinkets together or anything better then that it's not worth recasting. Just let Doom fall off.

In a nutshell I do...
SB (if im the one putting up Shadow and Flame for the locks), Haunt> UA> corruption> agony. Then I wait for Volcano, Bell, Power Torrent, Lightweave + Volcano Pot to line up and then cast my Doom.

Let that doom fall then recast for doom #2. Let #2 completely fall. Typically on my third Doom about the 45 second mark I'll see two trinket procs so I'll recast my 4th doom 30 seconds into the third doom. So I got two ticks from my third doom and now letting my fourth "buffed" doom have it's 4 ticks. After that timers are off and I can't get a better doom so I just BoD w/o any care.

[tyden49]

I think I understand what your saying hrensgory. About wasting mana and such, but I guess your getting a bit over my head on some of your explanations. Can you explain why this example would be good or bad as posted by someone in another thread:

This is true. Here's an example from my raid last night. Note when I first apply BoD and when the first tick occurs. The refresh is because all of my procs came up.

[22:02:56.794] Dotsalad casts Bane of Doom on Chimaeron
[22:02:57.234] Chimaeron afflicted by Bane of Doom from Dotsalad
[22:03:06.478] Dotsalad casts Bane of Doom on Chimaeron
[22:03:06.797] Chimaeron's Bane of Doom is refreshed by Dotsalad
[22:03:12.206] Dotsalad Bane of Doom Chimaeron 39398


I end up getting five 40k ticks out of that bane of doom where it normally would have been 20k.

*Me again* I mean this looks like they guy didn't lose anything but 1GCD and got 5 40k ticks...I think if I worked on the KISS method and just refreshed BoD when both trinkets were up at the same time, I'd end up doing more dps? Otherwise keep going with priority list as it is?

HOLY SHIT

so BoD works like other dots even if u refresh it early it will tick after 15 seconds no matter what that is awesome i never knew that