The League of Legends thread

[Deleted]

Let's just take ... Ahri as example. I think we can all agree she is reasonably balanced. Not the strongest pick out there, definitely not the weakest.

Her mechanics are pretty straight forward:
Q - line damage, magic/true; allows for counterplay by dodging it - preferably twice. Good Ahris can hit you twice exactly on the point where it returns.
W - Three magic charges, hit closest enemy. Counterplay: Stay away from Ahri and she will hit minions instead.
E - skill shot, Charm; works well with her R and her W. Counterplay: stay behind minions.
R - Repositions Ahri, deals damage. Strong ability to hit E with and for engaging when you want. Makes you safe in mid lane. Plenty of counterplay as Ahri's mobility is tied to those three charges.

Now nerf her damage by making all the Ratios not even half of what they are. Her gameplay didn't change, she just won't kill anything. She is not balanced.

Now keep her damage the same, but instead of E being a skillshot, it's similar to Ryze's W and will always hit the Champion. Additionally, her passive now is Katarina's. Numerically, nothing much changed. But this would completely break Ahri in lane and teamfights.

Uhm, huh?

Numbers (ratios, etc) + gameplay (champion kit) = balance. Not just numbers alone.

They're both variables in the equation which equals balance. (I hope I got this analogy right, I suck at math l0l).

Now keep her damage the same, but instead of E being a skillshot, it's similar to Ryze's W and will always hit the Champion. Additionally, her passive now is Katarina's. Numerically, nothing much changed. But this would completely break Ahri in lane and teamfights.

In this case for example, her ratios might be fine. But her kit isn't. This means she's not balanced.

Darius is meant to counter melee's. That's fine. I can live with that, in fact, that's actually good. But the problem lies in the fact that the only two melee champions who can keep up with him in a lane, is Garen or Riven. Mechanically, there's no wriggle room for other melee's to outplay Darius besides just sitting back and hoping to god he's too stupid to realize he's capable of killing you under his turret.

Now take Kassadin as an example. Meant to counter AP Casters. He does a very great job doing this, and that's awesome. The difference between Kassadin and Darius however, is the fact that with Kassadin, AP Casters has a solid chance of outplaying him and winning the lane purely by skill. With Darius, everything comes down to picking a ranged champion and staying longer than 550yards from him. That's not countering a champion. That's like saying "CC counters Darius herpaderp". Well, buddy, CC counters everyone. It's.. you know.. CC...

But yeah. I get your point, I just think there's more to balance than numbers.

[Deleted]

The exact reason why balance is so hard to grasp with champions such as Shen or Karthus is because numbers alone are not enough to call a champion balanced. You have to take it all into equation, utility included, and then think about making sure the strength stays relatively constant at all skill levels, assuming skill-wise balanced teams.

[Axethor]

I literally do not understand what makes Darius different than any other melee bruiser like him. Maybe people just hate true damage. Renekton, Olaf, Riven, and Jax. Melee champs that can beat Darius.

Melee champs that work like Darius, in that they murder you if you get close. Tiger Udyr, Olaf, Jax, Riven, Renekton, Tryndamere, Yi, Fiora, Garen. The list goes on because pretty much every Bruiser + melee AP fall into this category.

One thing separates them from Darius, his ult. This is what everyone hates about him, yet they forget about all the champs that do his job in a much more subtle way.

There is a great post on RoG about this issue. It also goes into why the mobility creep has gotten so bad. Ranged needs to escape the melee which needs to catch the range, which needs to escape the melee, etc. Infinite loop. Those who cannot easily catch the ranged champs need to be able to murder them fast. And Darius was born.

[Deleted]

By the way, this might be somewhat off-topic, but...

I browse the other sections of the forums from time to time, and I see a lot of people with LoL avatars/signatures, that never ever post here. Just seems a bit weird to me.
I just hope we're not alienating people from posting here. I know we're a bit special, but still.

I bet they're all just scared of Old Man Grumpy Grading, for sure.

[Axethor]

I need Fizz Counters. Go!

[Deleted]

I literally do not understand what makes Darius different than any other melee bruiser like him. Maybe people just hate true damage. Renekton, Olaf, Riven, and Jax. Melee champs that can beat Darius.

Melee champs that work like Darius, in that they murder you if you get close. Tiger Udyr, Olaf, Jax, Riven, Renekton, Tryndamere, Yi, Fiora, Garen. The list goes on because pretty much every Bruiser + melee AP fall into this category.

One thing separates them from Darius, his ult. This is what everyone hates about him, yet they forget about all the champs that do his job in a much more subtle way.

There is a great post on RoG about this issue. It also goes into why the mobility creep has gotten so bad. Ranged needs to escape the melee which needs to catch the range, which needs to escape the melee, etc. Infinite loop. Those who cannot easily catch the ranged champs need to be able to murder them fast. And Darius was born.

As I've stated so very often, the difference being that you can outplay all the others. Riven, Trynda, Fiora, Garen, Olaf, Renekton, Jax (Although fuck this cunt, but that's another reason entirely).

You have no room to outplay Darius. He'll always win trades unless your name is Riven or Renekton who has 2 dashes and a stun.

You can't straight out go ahead and completely stomp Darius' face. His damages makes up for his mistakes which, I'm sorry, but is just fucking sad and pathetic. He's the Death Knight's of LoL. Punishes everyone SEVERELY for their SMALL mistakes (which is a good-ish thing), but whenever they themselves make a huge bummer, they get away with it because of their kit (which is a very frickin bad thing).

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 07:48 PM ----------

I need Fizz Counters. Go!

I think Rumble is pretty strong against Fizz, I have absolutely no idea though. Bruisers in general I think have a pretty decent time against him.

[Shiny212]

As I've stated so very often, the difference being that you can outplay all the others. Riven, Trynda, Fiora, Garen, Olaf, Renekton, Jax (Although fuck this cunt, but that's another reason entirely).

You have no room to outplay Darius. He'll always win trades unless your name is Riven or Renekton who has 2 dashes and a stun.

You can't straight out go ahead and completely stomp Darius' face. His damages makes up for his mistakes which, I'm sorry, but is just fucking sad and pathetic. He's the Death Knight's of LoL. Punishes everyone SEVERELY for their SMALL mistakes (which is a good-ish thing), but whenever they themselves make a huge bummer, they get away with it because of their kit (which is a very frickin bad thing).

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 07:48 PM ----------



I think Rumble is pretty strong against Fizz, I have absolutely no idea though. Bruisers in general I think have a pretty decent time against him.

No. Darius is a fun champion to play and an easy champion to counter. You don't need to "outplay" him any more than you have to "outplay" anybody else. I routinely demolish Darius players with a multitude of MELEE champions.

[Duronos]

By the way, this might be somewhat off-topic, but...

I browse the other sections of the forums from time to time, and I see a lot of people with LoL avatars/signatures, that never ever post here. Just seems a bit weird to me.
I just hope we're not alienating people from posting here. I know we're a bit special, but still.

If you notice the views we get a day it definitely has more than us posting by a long shot. I think yesterday it was 969,000ish and now it's much higher.

[Deleted]

No. Darius is a fun champion to play and an easy champion to counter. You don't need to "outplay" him any more than you have to "outplay" anybody else. I routinely demolish Darius players with a multitude of MELEE champions.

Yeah, so do I. Bad players. Very bad players, now what's your point? That you can stomp inexperienced players? Good job son.

I've destroyed a Shaco jungle once, as Fiddlesticks. Does this mean Shaco isn't a strong jungler, or does it mean that this particular Shaco player is just inexperienced?

Please, some examples of you demolishing these Darius players, how'd you do it? I'd love to know.

[Deleted]

No. Darius is a fun champion to play and an easy champion to counter. You don't need to "outplay" him any more than you have to "outplay" anybody else. I routinely demolish Darius players with a multitude of MELEE champions.

So, how do you outplay a Darius? He can't really miss any of his skills if you're on a melee champion AND he will out-trade you with his AS slow and passive. Every time you go in to CS you risk getting apprehended and obliterated into smithereens.

Oh, also, we are going on an assumption that you both are equally skilled. Anyone can outplay a shitty player no matter the champion, I once won my lane as Karthus against a Talon.

[SargorVirm]

I find the issue with darius is more in the lower bracket of players. What happens when say Nasus gets matched with Darius? Notorious shitty early game vs a strong early game powerhouse like darius... He farms what he can, and plays safe, then the jungler ganks. You can do that with JUST ABOUT any champ that gets "countered" by darius. You have to accept it. You see a darius pick? Grab a top with cc /burst and a jungler with speed. Shut his ass down EARLY. He is garbage without farm / kills. It's not rocket science.

[Deleted]

I find the issue with darius is more in the lower bracket of players. What happens when say Nasus gets matched with Darius? Notorious shitty early game vs a strong early game powerhouse like darius... He farms what he can, and plays safe, then the jungler ganks. You can do that with JUST ABOUT any champ that gets "countered" by darius. You have to accept it. You see a darius pick? Grab a top with cc /burst and a jungler with speed. Shut his ass down EARLY. He is garbage without farm / kills. It's not rocket science.

But. He's not garbage without kills.

And Nasus' early game isn't really all that shitty either. (Just.. you know.. to throw that out there ^_^)

[Shiny212]

So, how do you outplay a Darius? He can't really miss any of his skills if you're on a melee champion AND he will out-trade you with his AS slow and passive. Every time you go in to CS you risk getting apprehended and obliterated into smithereens.

Oh, also, we are going on an assumption that you both are equally skilled. Anyone can outplay a shitty player no matter the champion, I once won my lane as Karthus against a Talon.

The same is true of literally ALL melee champions that are strong early, Renekton, Olaf to name a couple will punish bad traders early just has hard as Darius; harder actually since Darius has 1 gap closer and it has a really short range and a seriously long CD.

[NotValidAnymore]

I'm sorry, but how is Darius any worse than Olaf who runs up to you and hits you for true damage, Renekton who spins at you or Riven who just jumps at you, stuns then dashes away? Along a multitude of other champions. Have you met a good Rumble, even?

This sounds fishy.

[SargorVirm]

Sure he falls off.... No kills or farm from being shut down means he can't afford to be tanky. Means he gets eaten ALIVE in team fights. Thus he can't do his job.

[Geist19]

Olaf's true damage has a cooldown, and also does damage (even if minimal) to himself. It also does not do nearly as much as Darius' and will not reset if it kills the champion.

I honestly don't think the biggest problem is the true damage, it's the reset. I dislike reset champions in general. Yes they can be screwed if they mistime and don't get it, but if they do they are absolute monsters.

[Shiny212]

Olaf's true damage has a cooldown, and also does damage (even if minimal) to himself. It also does not do nearly as much as Darius' and will not reset if it kills the champion.

I honestly don't think the biggest problem is the true damage, it's the reset. I dislike reset champions in general. Yes they can be screwed if they mistime and don't get it, but if they do they are absolute monsters.

Who is comparing olafs true damage to darius?.. Of course Darius will be stronger, his true damage comes from his ultimate, Olaf has his from lvl1 if he should so please, it also falls off badly late game, but early? He'll shrug off decimate, and laugh when he gets apprehended and proceed to cut Darius to pieces.

[NotValidAnymore]

Olaf's true damage has a cooldown, and also does damage (even if minimal) to himself. It also does not do nearly as much as Darius' and will not reset if it kills the champion.

I didn't compare Olaf's E to Darius' ultimate, I compared them in general, in the laning phase.

I just can't fathom why people complain about Darius when there are bruisers who are just as bad, if not worse, to meet in lane.

(Also, you can't tell me a Darius spinning a little bit and pulling people places is more scary than an Olaf who pops his ulti, ghosts in and just proceeds to not give a damn while he crushes your squishies to a tiny pulp? Olaf's ultimate doesn't even do damage, yet it's that scary.)

[Deleted]

I didn't compare Olaf's E to Darius' ultimate, I compared them in general, in the laning phase.

I just can't fathom why people complain about Darius when there are bruisers who are just as bad, if not worse, to meet in lane.

(Also, you can't tell me a Darius spinning a little bit and pulling people places is more scary than an Olaf who pops his ulti, ghosts in and just proceeds to not give a damn while he crushes your squishies to a tiny pulp?)

Darius does, way, way more damage than Olaf. A lot of champions can become stronger than Olaf during the laning phase.

That said, even though many champions are at a huge disadvantage playing vs Darius, there is always something you can do to win. Hit him when he just used Q, fake all ins to bait his ult when you know you can escape. Get your jungler to gank, abuse your mobility etc. I am convinced there is always something you can do with every champion to win lane, that I probablly don´t know of. I´ve come up with a lot of stuff I can do in the Irelia vs Darius matchup to win even though it heavily favors Darius.

I like Darius the way he is, makes top lane kinda interesting. I actually enjoy laning vs him because it´s a challenge and a bit of a thrill.

[Duilliath]

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