[Books] A Dance with Dragons (MASSIVE spoilers a certainty)

[rayvio]

We don't need no Melisindre.
We don't need no burning men
No dark sorcery in the kingdom.
Stannis, leave those kings alone.
Hey, Stannis, leave those kings alone!
All in all I'm just another bloke on the wall.
All in all you're just another bloke on the wall.
We don't need no Melisindre.
We don't need no burning men.
No dark sorcery in the kingdom.
Stannis, leave those kings alone.
Hey, Stannis, leave those kings alone!
All in all you're just another bloke on the wall.
All in all you're just another bloke on the wall.

[XemnasXD]

Hmmm i wish my favorite characters had done more.

Dany was just mucking around. How do you have dragons and not bother to learn how to train them. How do you have an army of Unsullied and not bother to use them. How do you let someone basically sail 13 manned warships into your bay, knowing you need ships, let him threaten to kill you, and then let him go back to those 13 warships! I expected more from her but she was all pomp and no follow through. Finally when she got on that back of that dragon i was so relived. But now i feel bad for all of her followers back in Meereen trying to hold things together for HER while she goes off on her vision quest.

I had high hopes for Tyrion too but every time i thought he was on his way to something good (maybe a dragon?) some more shit got in the way and he ended up losing a few teeth and not accomplishing much of anything. Just floating along. But now he seems to be hatching a plan for the Second Sons, not sure how thats going to go for Brown Ben. And ugh, Penny, so annoying. I how martin kills her off early. If she and Tyrion hook up i'll be so disgusted, she's not even worthy. Anyone else think that Tyrione asking "where do whores go" was the wrong question because Tysha was never a whore to begin with? Like i know he probably meant it in a metaphorical way but he never seemed to think of it outside that context so it felt like he never really had any hope of finding her at all. Which is sad =/

Jon Snow grew to be one of my favorite characters but his chapters were agonizing knowing that w/e prophecy that red bitch mad was going to come true. I kept waiting chapter after chapter for the knives in the dark and when they finally came i actually didn't see it coming. Normally having an hall full of wildings cheering you on would make people think twice before stabbing you in the open.

Arya is well on her way to becoming a very dangerous woman. She's as likely to stick with the Faceless Men as she is to abandon it since she's got nothing to lose either way. She had some of the best moments in the book with that cat trick and the coin trick.

Bran has some amazing stuff happen to him and towards the end his chapters were really great, shame they were few and far between.

I knew Davos wasn't dead. Did not see Skagos in his future go. That guy doesn't get a break, if he's not in someones dungeon he's in mortal peril somewhere else.

Kind of want Victarion+Dany but i also want Dany to wear the pants in that relationship. Still he might not need her if he's got that horn. Such an enigma where martin is going with him.

There wasn't a character PoV that bored me this book unlike AFFC which required me to hunker down and power through nearly every chapter. Barristan sets himself apart nicely but he feels like he's surrounded by several giant nest of hornets and he's too noble (read: to Ned like) to survive. Quentyn wasn't worthy though i am pulling for Dorne so it was nice to see Doron send out the sand snakes on their missions. The whole Aegon thing was alright, i never believed he wasn't Aegon. I think at this point even considering that would give me a headache. There's such a thing as too many plot twist, it would be nice if something was as it seemed for once though where Varys is concerned you never know. Cersi is such a wildcard at this point, i feel her plottin but you'd think she'd be humbled by the whole naked walk. And if she hasn't gotten humbled then that bitch is about to let lose all hell. Seven save them.


So martins got two books to wrap this up. That feels like a very short time span considering the amount of time covered by the first 4. I hope he doesn't rush things along but at the same time at 1 book every 5 years he's likely to die if he drags it out to more than 7.

[Julian Rayne]

For me 90% of what I didn't like was in the Danaerys chapters. I like the different cultures that GRRM has shown us. I like the castles and knights of the Andals, the grittier Celtic-esque culture of the First Men and the Wildlings. I liked the Dothraki, the iron-born and the Dornish. I liked the Free-cities and the Rhonyar.

However the ONE people I just can't interest myself in are the dog-eating Ghiscari weirdoes with interchangeable names that just invite you to forget them after about twelve seconds.

[Disenchanted]

Hmmm i wish my favorite characters had done more.

I had high hopes for Tyrion too but every time i thought he was on his way to something good (maybe a dragon?) some more shit got in the way and he ended up losing a few teeth and not accomplishing much of anything. Just floating along. But now he seems to be hatching a plan for the Second Sons, not sure how thats going to go for Brown Ben. And ugh, Penny, so annoying. I how martin kills her off early. If she and Tyrion hook up i'll be so disgusted, she's not even worthy. Anyone else think that Tyrione asking "where do whores go" was the wrong question because Tysha was never a whore to begin with? Like i know he probably meant it in a metaphorical way but he never seemed to think of it outside that context so it felt like he never really had any hope of finding her at all. Which is sad =/

Oh, come on. I liked Penny... in an annoying kind of way. She's a true innocent. There's so very few of them in the World of Ice and Fire.

And it was touching to see Tyrion go out of his way for her... even though she annoyed him to no end! I don't think you have to worry about Tyrion hooking up with her. There's no way in hell that happens. GRRM pretty much made us certain of that already.

That was actually one of my favorite moments in the book. When she puts on a half helm and Tyrion scolds her to find a full helm. she asks why, and he taps his scar and tells her a half helm doesn't protect her face and he's fond of her nose. You know, just his joking way of getting a point across. Her response is "You like my nose?"

"Oh, Seven save me." LOL

[XemnasXD]

i lol'd there too. She's a bit more than innocent though, she's kind of childish and extremely naive. Also she's basically willing to bend the knee to anyone who is bigger than her simply because they are bigger. Tyrione made dwarfs cool. That priest back in AFFC made dwarfs cool. Penny has spent her whole life undoing the good work of those two guys in a kind of ignorant self depreciating way.

In a way she reminds me of Sansa before she became Alayne. She was vulnerable and constantly surrounded by danger but choose to bury herself in some fantasy version of reality. That kind of attitude barely held up in Westeros, Penny doesn't stand a chance of survival in Slaver's Bay. I'd like her more if she realized that.

[rayvio]

I liked Penny but wouldn't want to see her with Tyrion. it's kind of fun to see her crushing on him, but of course less funny when you think of it from her perspective. I think meeting her has actually been a big help for Tyrion though, he's been less self-pitying and more focussed again. not just because of her, I think Griff stopping his drinking helped somewhat as well but seeing her, the other kind of coping with being a dwarf, has served as something of a reality check for him as well

[Snakebite]

there's so much in the book that i'd love to discuss, but ultimately: why kill Jon!

why does everyone who you like have to die? i'm still reeling from the Red Wedding and i genuinely feel the storylines suffered for losing Robb. If Jon is dead for good i doubt i'll be buying the 6th book, there's nobody left i care about except Arya and Bran, who got about 3-5 chapters each in the last two books.

i guess i might get shot down here, but i feel that GRRM has gone too far with the merciless killing. Sure, it was his hook and it's how he made his name, but having invested in characters and watched them progress only to see them ALL get cut down is getting pretty tiring.

[aej]

The dead don't stay dead like with Catelyn and Aegon. I feel there's still A LOT left to Jon's story arc. It would be like killing off Daenerys, then the story wouldn't even touch Essos. So if Jon's fate truly ends.. there's no one to tell the story of the Wall and the coming invasion of the Others (although I'll be happy with a Dolorous Edd narrative).

There's a ton of wild theories toss around Jon's fate and I think the biggest one is that Jon has to die so he can be released from his Night's Watch oath and be reborn as Azor Ahai.

[Disenchanted]

there's so much in the book that i'd love to discuss, but ultimately: why kill Jon!

why does everyone who you like have to die? i'm still reeling from the Red Wedding and i genuinely feel the storylines suffered for losing Robb. If Jon is dead for good i doubt i'll be buying the 6th book, there's nobody left i care about except Arya and Bran, who got about 3-5 chapters each in the last two books.

i guess i might get shot down here, but i feel that GRRM has gone too far with the merciless killing. Sure, it was his hook and it's how he made his name, but having invested in characters and watched them progress only to see them ALL get cut down is getting pretty tiring.

Here's some hope I can give you. An interviewer asked GRRM why he killed Jon off. GRRM's response was, "Oh? So you think he's dead?"

For the record, I don't think he's dead at all. I'm not sure where it's going, but he's most certainly not dead (or dead for long. We have a flippin Red Priestess at the wall. )

[Notalent]

Here's some hope I can give you. An interviewer asked GRRM why he killed Jon off. GRRM's response was, "Oh? So you think he's dead?"

For the record, I don't think he's dead at all. I'm not sure where it's going, but he's most certainly not dead (or dead for long. We have a flippin Red Priestess at the wall. )

I pretty much agree with this right here, Jon's almost without a doubt going to be revived by Mel, ESPECIALLY if Stannis is actually dead. Without Stannis she will have nothing to cling to but Jon, and shes got no hope of actually being able to revive Stannis if Ramsey gets his hands on him.

On other note: The original name for Winds of Winter was A Time for Wolves, changed because it gave a bit too much away perhaps?

[Disenchanted]

On other note: The original name for Winds of Winter was A Time for Wolves, changed because it gave a bit too much away perhaps?

Not quite. We were always going to have TWOW. The book AFTER that was originally going to be called A Time for wolves. It probably is too spoilery, so it was changed to A Dream of Spring.

[XemnasXD]

I can't imagine that being too spoilery. Theres not that many starks left. None of them are after the Throne. So even if they all get happy endings which at this point they'd deserve cept maybe arya, theres still a large amount of Westeros that will has its story to be told. Just like AFFC wasn't about the glories of the Nights Watch but about several factions picking over the corpse of westeros, A Time for Wolves could just as easily be referring to several non-stark characters, probably coming together to form a pack, survive, and devour their enemies. Or whatever wolves do. Renaming it might have more to do with people reading too much into the wolves part or a change in the direction he was taking the story. O maybe he just think it fits the book better.

As for Jon, i kinda figured he wasn't dead but he's definitely in a bad position right now. If he's just wounded we might have to sit through several imprisonment chapters. If he did actually die and Melissandre is going to res him and make him Azor Ahai he's probably going to have to kill Mel to get that sword glowing. Also then that would mean the Red Priest over in Essoss were wrong about Dany being Azor Ahai which is odd because they always struck me at being much better priest than Mel.

[Notalent]

I can't imagine that being too spoilery. Theres not that many starks left. None of them are after the Throne. So even if they all get happy endings which at this point they'd deserve cept maybe arya, theres still a large amount of Westeros that will has its story to be told. Just like AFFC wasn't about the glories of the Nights Watch but about several factions picking over the corpse of westeros, A Time for Wolves could just as easily be referring to several non-stark characters, probably coming together to form a pack, survive, and devour their enemies. Or whatever wolves do. Renaming it might have more to do with people reading too much into the wolves part or a change in the direction he was taking the story. O maybe he just think it fits the book better.

As for Jon, i kinda figured he wasn't dead but he's definitely in a bad position right now. If he's just wounded we might have to sit through several imprisonment chapters. If he did actually die and Melissandre is going to res him and make him Azor Ahai he's probably going to have to kill Mel to get that sword glowing. Also then that would mean the Red Priest over in Essoss were wrong about Dany being Azor Ahai which is odd because they always struck me at being much better priest than Mel.

Dany fulfills most of the Prophecy, however she's out of position and there is no Ice in her song of Ice and Fire so far. Meanwhile Jon is pretty much the only character who has dealt with ice and fire in a way that makes the song of ice and fire make sense. Hes also the only character actively fighting the Others.

As for A time for Wolves not being spoilery, Nature fact: Wolves are at they're peak in winter and are arguably at they're weakest in Summer, as they feast upon they're weakened prey in the depths of winter. Winter is coming therefore could actually be taken as a threat/boast just like that of the other houses when you consider it. Consider the fact that all the surviving Starks have been training in one way or another besides perhaps Jon (who may have peaked) and it could mean that book would be the time when it all came together for them.

[Disenchanted]

Well, the Red Priests all seem to think that Azor Ahai and The Prince that was Promised are one and the same, so the prophecies also get combined.

I'm thinking they're not the same. It's 2 different people.

And I'll be Team Arya until the end. She doesn't deserve a happy ending? BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!

[XemnasXD]

I like arya as much as the next guy but she killed that man from the nights watch in cold blood. It wasn't her place to judge him or kill him like that and she had absolutely no qualms with it. I liked her more for that tbh but after that i don't think there's any going back. She's going to have a lot of blood on her hands when should could've always chosen to walk away. The faceless men have offered her multiple positions and occupations. It might not be a glamorous life but she is choosing to go down this path.

Is the Song of Fire and Ice mentioned in the book. I always thought it was a metaphor for a lot of things. Either way there can't be two Azor Ahais' so be it John or Dany someones got to be wrong unless they've gotten their elder scrolls mixed up.

[Disenchanted]

I hear everything you're saying about Arya... and I don't care. He deserved to die even if Arya didn't have the legal (nor possibly moral) right to do it. The Faceless Men also don't condone killing without reason (or permission, contract, however you want to put it). It's funny how this knight or that, or Brienne, or ANYONE kills someone and fans shrug it off or even fist pump. But Arya kills someone and they're outraged. Whatever. I'm with the Hound on this one.

[aej]

The man was a deserter of the Night's Watch. His life was forfeit.

[namelessone]

I finished it in 3 days reading almost non-stop and pretty much hated it. Whenever the next book comes out, I'll just read summary. 1000 pages of the book, resolves exactly ZERO of plots that I was interested it, creates some new unresolved ones, advances the story by 5 baby steps and is a boring boring BORE.

[XemnasXD]

I hear everything you're saying about Arya... and I don't care. He deserved to die even if Arya didn't have the legal (nor possibly moral) right to do it. The Faceless Men also don't condone killing without reason (or permission, contract, however you want to put it). It's funny how this knight or that, or Brienne, or ANYONE kills someone and fans shrug it off or even fist pump. But Arya kills someone and they're outraged. Whatever. I'm with the Hound on this one.

The thing about life, like tyrion is said, is that it's so full of possibilities. Whereas death is so final. He might have changed his mind later on. Not saying he would've but he might've. Jon Snow left the nightswatch too and he broke his vows by sleeping with that wildling and he broke his vows again by choosing to take sides and ride south. So does that mean his life was forfeit? The man was drunk and full of dreams. What arya did was murder. And she justified it by saying he broke his vows but the wall is full of people with broken vows in some form. What happened was she was a child who knew how to kill, she was mad at this man for abandoning her brother, so she killed him. Please don't try and act like she was carrying out a sentence or that she did this for some noble reason. It was a petty anger. When you try and justify it with all that BS you're just lying to yourself and lying about Arya's character which seems extremely hypocritical if like her so much. Thats for you and aej.

I'm not outraged that she killed someone. I'm calling a spade a spade. I didn't see Brienne going around killing anyone she was mad at, though this business with Jaime might make her no better than the rest of the filth she's been killing. You could say Catlyn has a right to her vengeance and i would agree but i'd also agree that there is no redeeming her either. Right now the only character in the book who deserves a happy ending is probably Sansa but that could change. If they're not playing the game of thrones their playing some other game with their own rules. The thing i love about these books is there is no Good Vs Bad when it comes to the humans. Just people being people, everyone is doing what their doing for their own self interest. Even Ned wasn't innocent between Roberts Rebellion and his extremely foolish sense of nobility in King's Landing that managed to get so many people killed, just so he could keep his sense of honor. Some characters are better than others but they're all wading through some kind of shit at this point, theres no going back for most of them, and they choose this path for themselves. Arya is no different now from the rest of them. I think that adds a lot to her character but like i said, she doesn't deserve to just go home to a rebuilt winterfell, marry gendry, and spend the rest of her life hunting and horseback riding into the sunset and i think giving her an ending like that would be hypocritical and very un-game of thrones-like.

[Disenchanted]

The thing about life, like tyrion is said, is that it's so full of possibilities. Whereas death is so final. He might have changed his mind later on. Not saying he would've but he might've. Jon Snow left the nightswatch too and he broke his vows by sleeping with that wildling and he broke his vows again by choosing to take sides and ride south. So does that mean his life was forfeit?

Under orders. He was under orders. HUGE difference. The black singer... I don't know. I think Arya only got "mad" at him and decided to kill him after he declared he was NEVER going back. We're not justifying her actions, we're only saying she had a motive other than just wanting to kill someone.

The man was drunk and full of dreams. What arya did was murder. And she justified it by saying he broke his vows but the wall is full of people with broken vows in some form. What happened was she was a child who knew how to kill, she was mad at this man for abandoning her brother, so she killed him. Please don't try and act like she was carrying out a sentence or that she did this for some noble reason. It was a petty anger. When you try and justify it with all that BS you're just lying to yourself and lying about Arya's character which seems extremely hypocritical if like her so much. Thats for you and aej.

And I say that you're inserting modern sensibilities into the story. Even in Westeros' code of ethics, Arya may be wrong. But 1) Under that code, she felt justified. And 2) She's still just a kid without the ability to see shades of gray. I'm not disputing she may be wrong to do it. I'm disputing she's evil because of it. And "going down a dark path" is hogwash. She's entering a profession no different than Knighthood. Again, I'm with the Hound on this one. People like to pretty up murder by calling it honor and duty. In the end, killing for a living is still killing. I just don't think it's necessarily evil. If Arya is evil, and heading down a dark path, then so is every. single. character. Even Sansa. She was an accomplice in her own aunt's murder.