should we leave Power Torrent alone? (holy)

[Skulldancer]

I know there is ALOT of theory crafting around power torrent and the raid enviorment.... but getting away from theory and being practicle is heart song still the way to go? I recently went back to heartsong and noticed a positive difference.

[Deleted]

I know there is ALOT of theory crafting around power torrent and the raid enviorment.... but getting away from theory and being practicle is heart song still the way to go? I recently went back to heartsong and noticed a positive difference.

Its really a personal choice. Power Torrent is a throughput enchant while Heartsong is a regen enchant. If your at the stage where your comfortable with regen, you would use Power Torrent for the greater throughput. On the other hand, if you need more regen and find your mana dipping low alot, then perhaps stick with heartsong.

[Skulldancer]

Its really a personal choice. Power Torrent is a throughput enchant while Heartsong is a regen enchant. If your at the stage where your comfortable with regen, you would use Power Torrent for the greater throughput. On the other hand, if you need more regen and find your mana dipping low alot, then perhaps stick with heartsong.

being that our mana on spells that we used has been nerfed, can any one say that mana isn't an issue? Especially if we are healing at high hps

[lifteez]

lower gear levels spirit means more. Higher intel means more. Its s convertion rate of mp5 = intel times (x) times spirit times (x)..so yeah.

[Daymanmb]

being that our mana on spells that we used has been nerfed, can any one say that mana isn't an issue? Especially if we are healing at high hps

Interesting thing about mana nerfs is that you gain back the difference with more intellect. It goes both ways. Yes spells cost a bit more but crits hit for 200% and wog is 30% stronger not to mention all the intellect on the 378+ gear more than makes up for the healing cost increases.

For PvP hands down Power Torrent; more crit and spell power..

For PvE though don't forget that we ONLY get 50% beneficial use out of spirit as mana regen while casting...so that 200 spirit quickly become 100...So vs. 500 of our #1 stat? I don't see how heartsong even comes out close...

[Liminal]

Heartsong

Despite what people will tell you, Spirit is Thoroughput. More DLs is More DLs.

[Skulldancer]

HeartsongDespite what people will tell you, Spirit is Thoroughput. More DLs is More DLs.

the proc rate is 3-1 heartsong. Power torrent prods once every minute and 15 sec while heartsong proccs every 20sec

[Deleted]

Heartsong

Despite what people will tell you, Spirit is Thoroughput. More DLs is More DLs.

Spirit Thoroughput? Afaik Spirit is a regen stat...

[Taygete]

Power Torrent for sure.. It has a better animation

^^ This.

It's just so... pretty...

[Ealyssa]

Spirit Thoroughput? Afaik Spirit is a regen stat...

More regen mean more spam, mean more healing done. That's clearly why blizzard try to limit our regen in cataclysm.

[Ethes]

I personally went for Power Torrent. I actually don't have any mana problems at the moment, and I don't think the bit of procs from hearthsong you get are worth the ride. I'd rather use a spirit flask over a intellect flask if I would have problems with mana.

[Deleted]

Spirit =/= more mana
Spirit = More mana Regen
Int = More mana and more mana regen.

[Deployed]

Spirit =/= more mana
Spirit = More mana Regen
Int = More mana and more mana regen.

I'm of the understanding that Int increases your max mana, not the amount of mana you currently have. So, unless it procs whilst you're drinking, your not going to actually have that extra mana.

However, that's assuming I am right with how the proc from Power Torrent and all those trinkets actually work.

To math it out so people understand my confusion,

You have max mana of 100,000
You cast a spell which leaves you with 50,000 mana that procs Power Torrent.
Your max mana is increased to 107,500
Question: Is your current mana after and during the proc, before another spell cast, left at 50k, increased to 57,500 or adjusted to remain at 50% of your max mana (i.e. 53,750)?

If it's the first answer, then the int proc can only be valued on it's spell power and mana regen effects, the latter should be significantly inferior to what heartsong performs.

Nevermind, I found my answer.

[Deleted]

I'm of the understanding that Int increases your max mana, not the amount of mana you currently have. So, unless it procs whilst you're drinking, your not going to actually have that extra mana.

However, that's assuming I am right with how the proc from Power Torrent and all those trinkets actually work.

To math it out so people understand my confusion,

You have max mana of 100,000
You cast a spell which leaves you with 50,000 mana that procs Power Torrent.
Your max mana is increased to 107,500
Question: Is your current mana after and during the proc, before another spell cast, left at 50k, increased to 57,500 or adjusted to remain at 50% of your max mana (i.e. 53,750)?

If it's the first answer, then the int proc can only be valued on it's spell power and mana regen effects, the latter should be significantly inferior to what heartsong performs.

It increases your max mana but not your actual mana, thats correct. But with an increased max mana, you gain increased regen from things such as replenishment and percentage based returns, hence the increased regen.

[Deployed]

I see. Have people worked out the threshold of max mana you need before Heartsong ceases to offer improved mana regen? I know people can argue that it's down to preference, but we are dealing with numbers here.

You also spend more time without the extra mana regen with Power Torrent than you do with Heartsong. I can see that in raids, Heartsong should be more valuable, but in 5-mans, PT is more useful.

From the way I see it, the mana regen from Power Torrent needs to be 6.6 times more effective than Heartsong's regen in order to be on equal terms for regen alone. Since Power Torrent only grants 75 mana over ten seconds from replenishment, I must admit I have no idea how it can be competative in the current mana regen state of the game.

[thoukaia]

From the way I see it, the mana regen from Power Torrent needs to be 6.6 times more effective than Heartsong's regen in order to be on equal terms for regen alone. Since Power Torrent only grants 75 mana over ten seconds from replenishment, I must admit I have no idea how it can be competative in the current mana regen state of the game.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Since PT is throughput and HS is regen, the only way to compare them is to translate the mana from HS into heals and compare these heals to the extra healing PT gives. Like for example, say PT gives you on average X extra healing every minute, and HS gives you say Y mana every minute which translate into Y/2200 Holy Lights which make Z healing. Compare X with Z and you know which enchant is better (hint: X>Z for most 4.0 raidboss scenarios), keeping in mind that the mana provided by HS also need time in order to be turned into healing whereas the extra healing from PT happens on its own.

[Deleted]

Use whatever feels best, REALLY.


I used Heartsong - Swaped to PT.....And I like it. But everytime I raid as holy..I miss HS.

[Skulldancer]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Since PT is throughput and HS is regen, the only way to compare them is to translate the mana from HS into heals and compare these heals to the extra healing PT gives. Like for example, say PT gives you on average X extra healing every minute, and HS gives you say Y mana every minute which translate into Y/2200 Holy Lights which make Z healing. Compare X with Z and you know which enchant is better (hint: X>Z for most 4.0 raidboss scenarios), keeping in mind that the mana provided by HS also need time in order to be turned into healing whereas the extra healing from PT happens on its own.

and all of that is on a random procc with long gaps between each proc while heart song proccs every 20 sec..... steadily ....... and with replenishment in raid environment how can it bring andmore regen? When PT is evry minute and 20 sec AT BEST.

[thoukaia]

and all of that is on a random procc with long gaps between each proc while heart song proccs every 20 sec..... steadily ....... and with replenishment in raid environment how can it bring andmore regen? When PT is evry minute and 20 sec AT BEST.

While your post easily qualifies for the position of most uneducated reply i've seen today due to lack of punctuation and sense, i will try to reply as clearly as possible.

Yes PT is a random proc, but its healing can be averaged out to a passive amount of HPS. so for example if PT gives you 20k healing (not counting overhealing) every time it procs, and it procs once per minute, the average healing is 333 HPS.
HS is a regen buff with nearly 100% uptime that lets say restores 1k mana each minute. Thats half a HL. One HL restores usually 30k health if not used on beacon (again not counting overhealing) which means half a HL is 15000 healing so thats an average 250 HPS.

So with these random numbers, PT is better than HS. This is the only way to compare PT with HS, or any throughput buff with a regen buff. Blindly saying "HS is regen and pally need regen, not throughput omg!" is a sign that you havent adapted to the Cata playstyle yet which favors throughput a lot more than WotLK did. In any case, it's been proven in EJ forums that they're almost equally good enchants and which one is better always depends on RNG and circumstances, so use your own criteria to determine the enchant for you. I go with PT because of the glow.

[Hyve]

Heartsong

Despite what people will tell you, Spirit is Thoroughput. More DLs is More DLs.

Bad logic, is really bad.

I'm at 100% mana on almost all fights, in which if I do go low, I just pop Mana Regen Cd's, and back to 100% again within seconds. More intellect is more throughput, compared to having more mana.

Power Torrent > Heartsong