PvP Gear on a Bear Tank?

[Dyzon]

Stop macroing Maul to every ability.

[bigbuddt]

Stop macroing Maul to every ability.

Don't think anyone does that anymore. But as a tank, I always find the pvp hands to be helpful with the changes to innervate, I can afford to get out of bear form and innervate a healer when I'm not tanking and switch back and be ready for interrupts or stuns. Maybe its a psychological thing but always felt more comfortable with anything that reduce my rage requirement esp in transition phases in Rag where I can skullbash/charge, and dps a bit to slow all the adds down and still have rage. Again may not be of significant to the majority of you but I like it.

---------- Post added 2011-08-13 at 08:19 PM ----------

Because most of us know how to manage our rage generation.

Someone just hates PvP gear =P. But serious, I'll upgrade into my 4 piece when I have a chance (but still hating that I'll lose the 2 piece pvp bonus a bit). But if the argument is that if PvP gear is viable (not the best) in normal Fireland or even 2/7 heroic, sure it is. During progression through normal, the healers actually noticed no difference between healing me in 4 piece PvP gear (shoulder/hands 371 while neck/boot (yes it's a haste boot) = 385) compare to a combination of 372/365/359 gear. Even know when the other tank has his 4 set bonus and in all 378, the healers doesn't find that much of a difference between me and the other tank granted all my other slots are filled with 378 gear. Again is PvP BIS for normal Fireland, prb not but is select pieces viable as placeholders, heck yeah .

[Auroro]

Someone just hates PvP gear =P. But serious, I'll upgrade into my 4 piece when I have a chance (but still hating that I'll lose the 2 piece pvp bonus a bit). But if the argument is that if PvP gear is viable (not the best) in normal Fireland or even 2/7 heroic, sure it is. During progression through normal, the healers actually noticed no difference between healing me in 4 piece PvP gear (shoulder/hands 371 while neck/boot (yes it's a haste boot) = 385) compare to a combination of 372/365/359 gear. Even know when the other tank has his 4 set bonus and in all 378, the healers doesn't find that much of a difference between me and the other tank granted all my other slots are filled with 378 gear. Again is PvP BIS for normal Fireland, prb not but is select pieces viable as placeholders, heck yeah .

I may dislike PVP, but PVP is not BiS for normal FL.

Sure you can use PVP gear for progression for normal FL. However the PVE gears does give the right amount of ToL/EH/Threat and you can get more stats from PVE gears when both gear are the same ilvl.

[bigbuddt]

I may dislike PVP, but PVP is not BiS for normal FL.

Sure you can use PVP gear for progression for normal FL. However the PVE gears does give the right amount of ToL/EH/Threat and you can get more stats from PVE gears when both gear are the same ilvl.

Hmmm don't think I said PVP was BIS Just like you said for an entry lvl gear to Fireland it's fine, and slowly replace it with each progression run. I am still sitting with 2 piece PvP gear now even after 2/7 heroics (just bad drop rate and a stupid hunter/kitty in raid) and had 4 piece when we downed Rag. I didn't crunch any numbers and love what my PvP hands offers (esp if I need to tank any randoms or T11 raid) so don't get the hate on PvP gear. They are fine for starting off Firelands and even superior than what's offered if one doesn't raid. Slowly replace them but it's not going to be the biggest or most essential upgrade over say a 353 bracer or neck.

[Deleted]

I was having a discussion with one of the new recruits to our guild. He is a bear tank and was asking for help in optimizing his gear. I know fairly little about bear tanks as I've only ever played resto/boomkin. One of my first comments was that he should replace his PvP gear with PvE pieces because resil is a wasted stat. (He's wearing Vicious pants/chest and also has the Vicious staff (ilvl 365)). His reply was that haste is also wasted, and also to a certain extent hit/expertise, assuming threat generation wasn't an issue. He also said that the PvP 2-piece bonus is +70agil which is the primary bear stat. I come from the opinion that PvE gear is always superior to PvP gear, assuming similar ilvls. I told him that the shoulders from Cho'gall are easily farmable, and tier legs can be bought in a day with JP. He stuck to his previous reply that because of the haste/hit/expertise on the PvE gear, the +70 agil bonus wins out.

Who is right here? Is the 2-piece PvP bonus of 70 agil worth the loss of the secondary stats on the PvE gear? Or should PvP gear stay in PvP?

Note: I'm not looking for affirmation. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. I just wanted a wider perspective than from someone I just met today.

pvp gear fom pvp pve gear for pve end of the story i think its simple

[bigbuddt]

pvp gear fom pvp pve gear for pve end of the story i think its simple

I laugh when I see a bear tank still in 346/353 that thinks this way....

[iifaustii]

as a 377 bear tank ive noticed that ilvl= better for a druid tank.. with the exception of an item with a significant ammount of mastery on it. granted my only piece is the 371 pvp helm, ( getting 384 this week). ilvl = armor agility and stamina. since crit hit haste and expertise are useless unless you fail at agro, i will take the 384 pvp item over the 378 unless i would lose a lot of mastery. sadly most people dont see it that way. You should have every item slot reforged to dodge and no piece of pvp gear is lacking a stat that you can reforge over to dodge.

[Auroro]

as a 377 bear tank ive noticed that ilvl= better for a druid tank.. with the exception of an item with a significant ammount of mastery on it. granted my only piece is the 371 pvp helm, ( getting 384 this week). ilvl = armor agility and stamina. since crit hit haste and expertise are useless unless you fail at agro, i will take the 384 pvp item over the 378 unless i would lose a lot of mastery. sadly most people dont see it that way. You should have every item slot reforged to dodge and no piece of pvp gear is lacking a stat that you can reforge over to dodge.

You better not be telling me that you are willing to skip T12 set bonus or take the pvp weapon over the pve weapon.

PVP gears, that are higher than 359, are only good for entry lvl gear to Fireland, you have to replace them once you get PVE gears from Fireland ilvl.

[iifaustii]

t12 4p i would not skip even for ruthless. but the 2p is worthless and the weapons are the same ilvl so no i would not trade those out

[Deleted]

" "Although this statement can be true, I feel it's very confusing to make. Your first statement shows PvP Gear (Similar tier, so 384 and 378 are regarded as "Similar tier", yes?) to be generally inferior to the PvE gear. However, afterwards you say it is "Roughly the same". So, is it roughly the same but always a little under, or am I reading into your message in the wrong way?"

You're reading it the wrong way; 384 gear is half a tier better than 378. So pvp gear that is the same ilvl (say, a weapon) loses to pve gear unless one is horribly itemized and the other is really outstandingly itemized for some reason.

384 gear and 378 gear are very, very close to each other in value. You trade 23 agi, 35 stam and some mastery for 200+ expertise and a secondary stat. That's pretty close. 23 agi and 35 stam are better for survival than 200 expertise but 200 expertise is a lot better for consistent and immediate threat and slightly better for savage defense. That's the sort of trade off you'll make.

Also note that all the pvp gear has a 2-piece +70 agility bonus, making the tradeoff even more lucrative if you have it.

I'd personally recommend going with head and shoulder PvP pieces until obtaining pve ones. While you'll eventually want the 4pT12 for bear tanking, having something in the meantime that is strong will help."

I asked this in

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t121412-...l_feedback/p3/

pre-nerf, and these are the kinds of tradeoffs we are making. Rawr backs this up too, given the low value a bear will need for threat (High DPS tanks with a 500% threat boost) - I use 5 pieces of ruthless + Ruth Weapon fully bear-gemmed, reforged and enchanted in FL H with no threat issue (As my offset). If you run a rawr and set up the sim properly, it will show the 378 gear and 384 to be remarkably close together.

A few in this thread have claimed that they're backing the other side of this with maths, but I've yet to see anything solid. Someone went as far as to quote with a simple "No, you're wrong, wrong, no".

Where's the evidence that is being alluded to? The mitigation is very close for ruthless and 378 gear. 378 wins on threat, but as I said threat isn't an issue, and 4t12 should be obtained when one can (But I never will, this being my offset I can't spare the valour). But before that special scenario I really, really can't see why not.

HOWEVER: Items without armour in their itemisation (Such as rings) sim out differently, I found the 359 rings I have to be slightly better than my 371 rings overall.

Necks, Trinkets(duh!) and rings should still be PvE if you can get them.

[coldfiredragon]

Who is right here? Is the 2-piece PvP bonus of 70 agil worth the loss of the secondary stats on the PvE gear? Or should PvP gear stay in PvP? .

On my healers when I see a BearTank (only a Bear tank) in PvP I love it. The extra AGI and STA on the PvP gear far outweighs the secondary stats that mos the PvE gear has.

[Tareum]

Kek at this discussion. Gearing up is so easy nowadays...
In no time any decent player showing average dedication can get a decent set of both PVE and PVP gear. And I don't mean ilvl359.
Imo that guy has a valid point, but he's also a slacker. A little grind will come a long way making your healers' lives easier. Not to mention yours.

For what it's worth I never accept people wearing PVP gear doing PVE. Even at equal skills, they always sub perform.
And I uphold the same rule in RBG. I expect people to make the effort to wear PVP gear. The only exception I'm willing to make is for weapons.

[Arielle]

384 gear and 378 gear are very, very close to each other in value. You trade 23 agi, 35 stam and some mastery for 200+ expertise and a secondary stat. That's pretty close. 23 agi and 35 stam are better for survival than 200 expertise but 200 expertise is a lot better for consistent and immediate threat and slightly better for savage defense. That's the sort of trade off you'll make.

Nope.

23 + (35 * 0.2) = 30.
200 * ~0.3 = 60.

And that's under valuing Exp and over valuing Stamina.

I asked this in

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t121412-...l_feedback/p3/

Well there's your first mistake. EJ hasn't exactly been on top of things for....quite some time.

Rawr backs this up too

Rawr has the most terrible boss handler known to man. I wouldn't trust a single thing it says.

Where's the evidence that is being alluded to? The mitigation is very close for ruthless and 378 gear. 378 wins on threat, but as I said threat isn't an issue, and 4t12 should be obtained when one can (But I never will, this being my offset I can't spare the valour). But before that special scenario I really, really can't see why not.

Individually a 384 PvP item will lose to a 378 PvE item unless the PvE item is Hit/Haste. However you will definitely want to drop offset PvP items (Bracers / Belt / Boots) as you require 378 replacements. Also drop the gloves as soon as you get new ones. After that drop Legs / Chest once you can replace them at the same time.

And not having enough valour isn't really a viable excuse anymore. I'm almost done filling out my kitty offset at this point.

[Tareum]

On my healers when I see a BearTank (only a Bear tank) in PvP I love it. The extra AGI and STA on the PvP gear far outweighs the secondary stats that mos the PvE gear has.

Yeah maybe, except that a tank isn't geared only to please healers. With serious raid damage, a tank also has a job to do generating quick aggro and holding it. And I bet you that a PVE geared tank outperforms a PVP one.

[razisgosu]

Don't think anyone does that anymore. But as a tank, I always find the pvp hands to be helpful with the changes to innervate, I can afford to get out of bear form and innervate a healer when I'm not tanking and switch back and be ready for interrupts or stuns. Maybe its a psychological thing but always felt more comfortable with anything that reduce my rage requirement esp in transition phases in Rag where I can skullbash/charge, and dps a bit to slow all the adds down and still have rage. Again may not be of significant to the majority of you but I like it.

---------- Post added 2011-08-13 at 08:19 PM ----------



Someone just hates PvP gear =P. But serious, I'll upgrade into my 4 piece when I have a chance (but still hating that I'll lose the 2 piece pvp bonus a bit). But if the argument is that if PvP gear is viable (not the best) in normal Fireland or even 2/7 heroic, sure it is. During progression through normal, the healers actually noticed no difference between healing me in 4 piece PvP gear (shoulder/hands 371 while neck/boot (yes it's a haste boot) = 385) compare to a combination of 372/365/359 gear. Even know when the other tank has his 4 set bonus and in all 378, the healers doesn't find that much of a difference between me and the other tank granted all my other slots are filled with 378 gear. Again is PvP BIS for normal Fireland, prb not but is select pieces viable as placeholders, heck yeah .

It's not a matter of he hates pvp gear, it's a matter of he knows what he's talking about. You obviously don't know who Katarn is if you're arguing over theorycrafting.

[Braindwen]

Yeah maybe, except that a tank isn't geared only to please healers. With serious raid damage, a tank also has a job to do generating quick aggro and holding it. And I bet you that a PVE geared tank outperforms a PVP one.

Maybe, except it's a non-issue since a competent bear in pvp OR pve gear won't have issues with threat... pretty much ever. MAYBE a pvp-geared tank would have more issues at the start due to less expertise, but I don't see that as a large concern. Before you blast me for my reforging (which basically contradicts what I just said), I've long since stopped caring about threat. I go for hit/expertise for the damage, and for my kitty set since I don't have much duplicate gear.
On the topic: I don't really have much more to add. PvP gear was great for gearing my mostly 359 bear up for firelands, doubly so since the stats it has in abundance (agi, dodge, armor) help the most when bosses hit hard. However, it's nothing but a temporary fix, and I was very happy when I was able to replace it all. It's not bad, but it's not better than "equivalent" PvE gear.
I switch to 384 gloves for heroics, because I <3 that interrupt cost reduction. I also throw the shoulders on, but that's just for the 70 agi bonus, cause I'm already using 1 piece, might as well grab it.

[Deleted]

The increase on armor agi and stam is much more important than any even significant loss of dodge and mastery towards resilence. Basically if it's higher ilvl - it's better is a good feral tank gearing strategy. Yup, pvp can be awesome for tanking.

I see few people raising threat points up there. Let's not be ridiculous, any tank with at least one neuron still dimming up there can pick up adds before they aggro on the healer, that's not a dps stat matter, it's a skill matter. In long term threat generation (not that it's not useless these days) agi is the best stat anyway and that comes with ilvl.

[iifaustii]

I agree the stam armor and agility (dodge) increase out weighs 2nd stats because realisticly you dont lose dodge either way cuz the higher ilvl item has more agility.. but all pvp items have 1 2nd stat which can be reforged to dodge. as for threat.. im pushing 2-3 million threat in the first minute if not more and im not the most amazing druid by far. if your having threat issues you should go play something else

[Arielle]

This thread makes me lol.

[Jinto]

Honestly if people cared so much just do 7/7H with full PVP gear. It is definitely doable and when someone trashes on your gear again just go "hey I am a Firelord in pvp gear and you are not".