[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[RoninaThorstone]

Attributing the lack of communication in 5 man dungeons to LFG is silly.
People aren't talking because they know, or think they know, the fights. This, like I mentioned earlier, is because the community has become better at playing MMOs. They use things like wowhead and tankspot rather than fumbling along, asking questions, and figuring out fights on their own.
Also, saying that the content has gotten "easier" due to LFG is also silly, for the same reason really. The average WoW player has a much better understanding of the game than they did years ago. If you look at the boss mechanics for 5 mans, they have gotten increasingly more complex and numerous over the years so, in fact, the opposite has happened. The average pug is just better than it was years ago so the dungeons SEEMS easier because people are using cookie cutter specs that offer the best DPS and they know which stats to stack and how high to avoid going over soft caps ect.

You don't see +spirit/stamina hunters spamming wingclip with a turtle pet and standing in fire so much these days.

[Nirawen]

Attributing the lack of communication in 5 man dungeons to LFG is silly.
People aren't talking because they know, or think they know, the fights. This, like I mentioned earlier, is because the community has become better at playing MMOs. They use things like wowhead and tankspot rather than fumbling along, asking questions, and figuring out fights on their own.
Also, saying that the content has gotten "easier" due to LFG is also silly, for the same reason really. The average WoW player has a much better understanding of the game than they did years ago. If you look at the boss mechanics for 5 mans, they have gotten increasingly more complex and numerous over the years so, in fact, the opposite has happened. The average pug is just better than it was years ago so the dungeons SEEMS easier because people are using cookie cutter specs that offer the best DPS and they know which stats to stack and how high to avoid going over soft caps ect.

You don't see +spirit/stamina hunters spamming wingclip with a turtle pet and standing in fire so much these days.

I'd say the drop in the level of communication in 5mans is due to several things, I think cross server LFG is one of those reasons but a very small one.

As for the difficulty of dungeons I would say they have definitely got easier but not because of LFG.

[zaxlor]

Attributing the lack of communication in 5 man dungeons to LFG is silly.

I've always said that the more complex the encounter, the harder it is to actually talk about it.

If a boss has say 3-4 abilities and 2 or more phases, there's no time to quickly type into chat "Get out of the fire!" or "Kill that monster first!". Even before the pull, i've always found that if you ask how to kill a "difficult" boss you'll get 2-3 different answers and in fighting on which tactics to use. For myself I just charge head first then try to react to what's going on. Once we've wiped i'll ask why, or even if we've won ask if what I did was right.

At the same time though, if the fight's a tank and spank like in dungeons such as Stockades or Sunken Temple people don't need to talk about the fights and can if they want to about other things. It wouldn't matter if the game played it's self and you were basically watching a video of gameplay footage with a chat box, if people don't want to talk, they won't.

With regards to the cross realm and self realm group finders, I can see the cross realm being used much more than the self realm one, unless they start adding in incentives to using your own realm to find players. We all know that players (generally), take the path of least resistance. If it's quicker to get into a dungeon at the exspense of not chatting to strangers, that's what's going to happen.

I do love that idea someone had a few pages back of being a construction crew and helping to build up the towns using the settler path. THAT builds community. THAT fosters actual relationships, chat and feedback between players. Even if it starts off as a "Hey, are there any buildings to construct in this zone, they all seem built?" to be asked in zone chat it gets people involved.

[Jibjub]

This is an unsubstantiated conclusion that doesn't have a direct correlation with facts that are present. Basically it's just your assumption that there is some form of causality there. If you think you are going to find some amazing pinnacle of a community in a game that requires millions of people to be successful, regardless of whether there are convenience features in the game, you are sorely mistaken.

It's an advancement in game design. It didn't bring any new problems that didn't already exist. It didn't magnify any problems to the extent everyone claims it is. It only serves to point things in a focused light as it is accessible to a broader range of people. No more, no less. Any opinions to the contrary are just bias.

Well since community quality is not quantifiable ... then why are you even bringing this up? Obviously this isn't science. I enjoyed the game before LFD was a thing ... that's all the causality I need. I know there are more than just a few people who agree with me. I know there are probably more that disagree ... and LFD won't keep me from playing Wildstar and it isn't the ONLY reason I quit WoW. However, I do think if you believe LFD has not had other consequences to MMOs then you are equally as biased. Or you haven't had much experience in WoW pre-LFD or other MMOs before WoW where you don't need any stats to know if the community is decent or not.

This is mostly just me spouting my personal opinions. I would simply prefer for a game to find more things for end game players to do so there wasn't a need for MUST RUN DUNGEONS NOW CANNOT WAIT FOR GROUP ME NEED REWARDS IN 10 MINUTES OR FEWER. If you had things to do while you waited to form a group it wouldn't be a big deal ... every body wins.

[RoninaThorstone]

As for the difficulty of dungeons I would say they have definitely got easier

Lets look at BRD.
Emp thaurissan has a stun and a spell that makes him immune for a few seconds with a weak princess who tossed him heals. That was not complicated or hard.
Or ST.
Eranikus had an acid breath attack and a banish ability. That's it.

Now compare that to Rajh in halls of origin or Siamat in lost city.

The average joe shmoe player just got better at WoW over the years.

[zaxlor]

Lets look at BRD.
Emp thaurissan has a stun and a spell that makes him immune for a few seconds with a weak princess who tossed him heals. That was not complicated or hard.
Or ST.
Eranikus had an acid breath attack and a banish ability. That's it.

Now compare that to Rajh in halls of origin or Siamat in lost city.

The average joe shmoe player just got better at WoW over the years.

I wouldn't say people got better at playing the game. They probably were easily able to over-gear for certain encounters and were able to be healed through damage. At least when they nerfed all the Cata Heroics that is. The boss that drops fire on the floor, then hatches open pheonixs was a pain in the ass, as well as the Djinn boss at the end.

I think they could have had most of the Cata Heroic bosses as raids and then had a much easier dungeon experience. The entire game while running quests and killing things out in the world dosn't teach you any skills in how to dungeon or raid. There's a few mobs that will barf up red circles, but as quickly as they're introduced (the big scorpion in the Orc starting zone), they're tottally forgotten untill you get to Pandaria. Even then I can't really think of any mob on Pandaria with the exception of the rare spawns that telegraph any kind of move. They're all tank and spank right from level 1 all the way up to 90.

I do like that they added in extra moves to bosses in Deadmines, Stockades and Shadowfang keep, but they're till pretty weak training dummys on teaching you to not stand in the bad shit, use offensive and defensive cool downs correctly and work as a team.

I'm not saying it's vastly difficult to pick up on what to do in a raid while playing inside one, but it dosn't help that the WoW is basically leveling content and then dungeons/raids with no real bridge between the two. It's a very flat line of single player content, then a small bump with dungeons, before a huge wall with the difficulty of raids.

I really like that from the footage i've seen of Wildstar, even the low level monsters are telegraphing stuff at you. Things like wooly mammoths running and charging at you, stomping their feet while a big red bar gets laid down on the ground showing where it's about to charge. It probably won't kill you if you take the hit, but at least you can relate your leveling experience to your dungeon or raiding experience if they all play by the same rules.#

When Blizzard remade the old world with Cataclysm, I was really hoping they'd remake all the older dungeons too. It's unfair to only give players tank and spank content, then the first raid involves a random mechanic, twin tanked, DPS race with bad crap to not stand in. I'm not saying that the first raid boss of Pandaria should have been a training dummy, but I think Wildstar is off on the right foot by helping to teach players how it's end game works while leveling.

[Kelimbror]

that's all the causality I need

Then I guess you don't like to rationally think about things. You know how many other things have changed since the introduction of automated group finders? You have to look at encounter design, reward structures, not to mention just the fact of time, the whole market, etc.

Basically I said there's no causality because you are attributing what you perceive as negative occurrences as being attributed to LFD/LFR when there's no evidence that is caused these problems. The fact that many of these 'negatives' existed before LFR did is actually evidence against what you believe, opinion or not.

[fengosa]

This is mostly just me spouting my personal opinions. I would simply prefer for a game to find more things for end game players to do so there wasn't a need for MUST RUN DUNGEONS NOW CANNOT WAIT FOR GROUP ME NEED REWARDS IN 10 MINUTES OR FEWER. If you had things to do while you waited to form a group it wouldn't be a big deal ... every body wins.

LFD doesn't give you less to do, in fact it gives you more to do because you're not confined to a city spamming a chat channel.

[RoninaThorstone]

I wouldn't say people got better at playing the game. They probably were easily able to over-gear for certain encounters and were able to be healed through damage. At least when they nerfed all the Cata Heroics that is. The boss that drops fire on the floor, then hatches open pheonixs was a pain in the ass, as well as the Djinn boss at the end.

That's the patch I quit, btw.

Gearing, or rather knowing how to gear, is part of the learning curve. Like I said, you don't see hunters running around in of the whale gear anymore. This is, in part, due to blizzards intervention. They not only made it more clear to players, what each class needs, but also made it easier to get the right gear and almost impossible to wear the absolute wrong gear.

[Redblade]

Basically I said there's no causality because you are attributing what you perceive as negative occurrences as being attributed to LFD/LFR when there's no evidence that is caused these problems. The fact that many of these 'negatives' existed before LFR did is actually evidence against what you believe, opinion or not.

So prove that it had no negative effects...

I know how WoW was before and after LFD, it was a huge shift in attitude, if you deny that you have to have been on some really shitty server community compared to mine.

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 02:14 AM ----------

LFD doesn't give you less to do, in fact it gives you more to do because you're not confined to a city spamming a chat channel.

While you may not have enjoyed it, the act of finding a group before LFD was content.

[CursedEmbrace]

So prove that it had no negative effects...

I know how WoW was before and after LFD, it was a huge shift in attitude, if you deny that you have to have been on some really shitty server community compared to mine.

So you want him/her to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his/her anecdotal evidence and reasoning is better than yours? Okay then, just thought I'd check.

While you may not have enjoyed it, the act of finding a group before LFD was content.

I'm not sure how you can really call waiting around, asking a chat channel for a group content, but okay.

While I'm here I'll just give my opinions on the LFR/LFD system and my opinion is that the system is what the community made of it. Ultimately it has probably done more good than bad and it is only a tool to be used, nothing ever stops anyone from forming a group the ol' fashion way and try and keep what they see as the "server" community alive.

Now, the obvious rebuttal to what I just said is "But the LFD tool is all anyone ever uses and all that, it'd be next to impossible to start a group like we used to nowadays."

To which I'd say; maybe, but then it seems like that is what the people wanted, they voted with their feet, so to speak, probably because the system offers more conveniences and benefits over the old ways, but that's what the people wanted, even back in the old day or surely this innovation would never have caught on? It'd have been rejected like Blizzard's in game voice chat thing which I have (personally) never heard anyone suggest using.

[Redblade]

So you want him/her to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his/her anecdotal evidence and reasoning is better than yours? Okay then, just thought I'd check.

If he's to claim others viewpoints on the subject as biased, then yeah.

I'm not sure how you can really call waiting around, asking a chat channel for a group content.

You interacted in the game and it took up your time...

nothing ever stops anyone from forming a group the ol' fashion way and try and keep what they see as the "server" community alive.

Overused flawed argument, first of all this argument is based on the assumption that you find it OK that one group has longer wait times than the once using LFD yet can't accept the old system for the very same reason, further more it's in human nature to take the path of least resistance hence a lot will use it no matter what they think of it as it's the most efficient way, finally as it's more rewarding (WoW's system) to use LFD it would simply put you at a disadvantage by not using it as efficiently as possible.

To which I'd say; maybe, but then it seems like that is what the people wanted, they voted with their feet, so to speak, probably because the system offers more conveniences and benefits over the old ways, but that's what the people wanted, even back in the old day or surely this innovation would never have caught on? It'd have been rejected like Blizzard's in game voice chat thing which I have (personally) never heard anyone suggest using.

You use the same flawed logic as Blizzard when they design a new system. Design new system -> attach extra rewards to said system -> see everyone use it for a number of reasons but most of all for the extra reward -> proclaim the features overwhelming success...

[Jibjub]

If there is enough engaging content in the persistent world (good world pvp and group activities) then I don't think LFD would be AS BAD. Like Kittyvicious mentioned, and I agree, the reward structure that goes along WITH LFD is also flawed. You felt forced to do your daily or weekly caps to keep up ... it became a compulsive act that you logged in and just got done as fast as you could ... leading to the terrible and anonymous runs, over and over. I also think where WoW messed up was incentivizing LFD so much, especially for tanks and healers (which caused all sorts of issues, among them: superiority complex of the /needed/ roles (though I'll admit this belonged before LFD), people queueing for roles they were terrible at, and making it harder to find tanks and healers while not using LFD) ... I think the incentive should be given to groups with same server make-ups.

ALSO: it hasn't been mentioned yet, but the sheer fact that WoW had to implement a "luck of the draw" buff shows the flaw in LFD. And this buff, in my opinion, is a band-aide fix at best. "We know you aren't going to talk, that you aren't going to be willing to wipe to learn your class or mechanics or to teach a struggling player, so we will just make it face-roll easy so you can still get your rewards in 20 minutes or fewer." ... so YES, by design fights are made deliberately easier because of LFD. It's science

[CursedEmbrace]

You interacted in the game and it took up your time...

While it did do that I do feel that is stretching the definition of the word and the spirit in which it is normally meant to breaking point.

Overused flawed argument, first of all this argument is based on the assumption that you find it OK that one group has longer wait times than the once using LFD yet can't accept the old system for the very same reason, further more it's in human nature to take the path of least resistance hence a lot will use it no matter what they think of it as it's the most efficient way, finally as it's more rewarding (WoW's system) to use LFD it would simply put you at a disadvantage by not using it as efficiently as possible.

You use the same flawed logic as Blizzard when they design a new system. Design new system -> attach extra rewards to said system -> see everyone use it for a number of reasons but most of all for the extra reward -> proclaim the features overwhelming success...

Lets just bunch these two together, now... I'm not sure I see my reasoning as flawed, in fact I'd say you've highlighted some of the perks of the system that I did mention somewhat. The reward of painstakingly putting together your own group MAY be the feeling of community you got (which, to some would be worthwhile no?), the newer system is automated, often faster for all involved and offers an additional reward in the form of extra points, badges, items ect but its only real drawback is the possibility for a rather impersonal group experience, which is, of course down to the group itself, not the tool.

Both of these group finding methods exist side by side in WoW now and it seems people (including some if not most of the old guard who remain used to make groups the old way) prefer the often quicker, more personally rewarding (in terms of raw character progression anyway) system, if the masses didn't it wouldn't be flourishing and, much like my stance on a lot of other things to do with game systems and design if one competing grouping system, or method for falls by the wayside because the people using it (some of whom are the same people who experienced years of self-forming groups) then it probably deserves its fate.

LFD tools are something that I'm sure most games would like to launch with and are a serious boon, whether they give any additional progression rewards or not, they have an incredible amount going for them over the older "LF2M DM" method, which you would still be free to use, if you wanted and providing people with more options for how they want to do something (even though one will inevitably become the more popular) seems like a good thing to me.

-- One thing I will say is that the LFD system lacks a sense of accountability that may, somewhat have been present in the olden days, if someone was a pain, but outside of reporting an offender or creating some League of Legends style Tribunal system for people who use the LFD type tools I can't see an easy way to do much about it.

[Evilmaniac]

I gotta say at first I thought it was just another mmo that looked stupid, but after looking a little more into the system of the game I think I'll keep my eye on it. The esper class and settler path look real interesting to me.

[Kelimbror]

So prove that it had no negative effects...

1)I'm not claiming anything other than you can't blame any perceived problems on this one game feature. I don't need to prove that. It's a logical truth.

2)All of the perceived problems being fallaciously attributed to LFD/LFR existed prior to those features in some capacity. Ergo, it's borderline illogical at best and completely false at worst to blame these problems on this system.

3)The perceived problems are a combination of many factors including, but not limited to:

General population issues
Reward structures
Player mentality in the F2P age
Expectations stemming from subscription games
Decade long player expectations from MMOs in general
Prevalence of specific behavior types on the internet

Do I need to go on?
------------------------------------

Now, whether people want to like it or not, automated grouping features are an advancement in the technology available for MMOs. It improves the ability to form groups to complete group content, heightens and streamlines reward systems, and makes content more available to a higher percentage of players. Regardless of what your personal feelings or experiences are about anything related to this, it is an advancement and an improvement to the game.

It's a similar progression to how quests evolved. Leveling used to be grinding mobs. Purpose and rewards were not freely given. Paths weren't set concretely and generally playing was aimless. Some people loved it, some hated it. Then the evolution of proper questing to guide you through a leveling process, complete with rewards and stated group quests in order to facilitate group content. Instead of just having really hard mobs to be discovered, you had a set path that required groups.

Questing improved leveling the same way that automated grouping improves group content. To look at it any other way is biased. It's just a fact of what happened. It's the difference between walking -> biking -> driving a car. Every advancement isn't going to improve a function 100%. Drawbacks will exist for any number of scenarios.

[Redblade]

While it did do that I do feel that is stretching the definition of the word and the spirit in which it is normally meant to breaking point.

I don't know, with the introduction of LFD the process was automated and you spent less time in game, while not the clear cut description of content it was still a part of the dungeon run back then, also the larger social aspect where you got to know who was good and who was bad on your realm.

Lets just bunch these two together, now... I'm not sure I see my reasoning as flawed, in fact I'd say you've highlighted some of the perks of the system that I did mention somewhat. The reward of painstakingly putting together your own group MAY be the feeling of community you got (which, to some would be worthwhile no?), the newer system is automated, often faster for all involved and offers an additional reward in the form of extra points, badges, items ect but its only real drawback is the possibility for a rather impersonal group experience, which is, of course down to the group itself, not the tool.

Both of these group finding methods exist side by side in WoW now and it seems people (including some if not most of the old guard who remain used to make groups the old way) prefer the often quicker, more personally rewarding (in terms of raw character progression anyway) system, if the masses didn't it wouldn't be flourishing and, much like my stance on a lot of other things to do with game systems and design if one competing grouping system, or method for falls by the wayside because the people using it (some of whom are the same people who experienced years of self-forming groups) then it probably deserves its fate.

So if we where to change the LFD tool in WoW to have 30min minimum waiting time and remove any and all incentive rewards for using it do you still think it would be used as much? I mean if the feature it self is the attraction this shouldn't change anything really.

-- One thing I will say is that the LFD system lacks a sense of accountability that may, somewhat have been present in the olden days, if someone was a pain, but outside of reporting an offender or creating some League of Legends style Tribunal system for people who use the LFD type tools I can't see an easy way to do much about it.

People where shunned back in the day fairly frequently if they where proper a-holes so it can work. While anecdotal, I can count on my fingers the times I had some one ninja a piece of gear between vanilla and LFD launch, in the first two weeks of LFD launch I had gone past what I would count on fingers alone...

1)I'm not claiming anything other than you can't blame any perceived problems on this one game feature. I don't need to prove that. It's a logical truth.

Never blamed "any" problems on LFD, just that it's inception removed any and all consequences and as such changed peoples behavior quite drastically.

2)All of the perceived problems being fallaciously attributed to LFD/LFR existed prior to those features in some capacity. Ergo, it's borderline illogical at best and completely false at worst to blame these problems on this system.

Again never said the issues didn't exist, LFD amplified them beyond control though, not to mention how game design changed to accommodate this change.

3)The perceived problems are a combination of many factors including, but not limited to:

General population issues
Reward structures
Player mentality in the F2P age
Expectations stemming from subscription games
Decade long player expectations from MMOs in general
Prevalence of specific behavior types on the internet

Do I need to go on?

And your point is, I could list a multitude of negative affects it's had, you dismissing issues just because there where around in some shape before is just being blind to the fact that problems can be more problematic due to outside influences.

To make an example out of your first item, LFD helped Blizzard ignore population issues which in return most surely affected people outside of the 5 man dungeons, not to mention raid guilds recruiting. I'm sure if you wanted to you could go look at free transfers made available post LFD launch to confirm, from what I remembered they completely stopped for the longest time in the games history.

it is an advancement and an improvement to the game.

Clearly some people disagree with that, you dismissing their views doesn't make your any more right.

It's a similar progression to how quests evolved. Leveling used to be grinding mobs. Purpose and rewards were not freely given. Paths weren't set concretely and generally playing was aimless. Some people loved it, some hated it. Then the evolution of proper questing to guide you through a leveling process, complete with rewards and stated group quests in order to facilitate group content. Instead of just having really hard mobs to be discovered, you had a set path that required groups.

Bad example as content requiring no interaction with other players that is optional as you can still grind mobs if you so chose is completely different.

Questing improved leveling the same way that automated grouping improves group content. To look at it any other way is biased. It's just a fact of what happened. It's the difference between walking -> biking -> driving a car. Every advancement isn't going to improve a function 100%. Drawbacks will exist for any number of scenarios.

Again, prove that it improved grouping content, I'd disagree and say LFD and LFR has negatively impacted the game and group content far more than it's only positive effect that is convenience has. If you can't prove that it has all you have is an opinion that is as subjective as mine, and to call a subjective opinion biased is quite arrogant.

[shamestia]

Last time I checked this is the fucking wildstar thread not the whiney ass old school wow tough guy defender thread. Take your lfr argument elsewhere FFS.

[Frigiddeath]

I have to say that I am impressed that the whole LFD debate is still going for the last 4 pages even though I shouldn't be as it has been going on since it was put into WoW. At the end of the day it is probably a pointless thing to even debate as LFD is going to be in the game. The best thing to do is to try and think of solutions to fixing the problems with a LFD system so you can offer them up to Carbine instead of the whole should it exist or shouldn't it exist.

LFD fixed some problem with how people wanted to play a MMO and caused some new problems and exacerbated other ones. No solution is ever going to fix everything so the best thing to do is fix the problems you can as they arrive and account for what you can during formulation and implementation. If you don't like how current LFD system works; what improvements would you make? What issues will they cause and are they actually better than what you have now. I rather see a conversation about that than the same old debate that has been going on for 3 or so years now. If you want the system to see improvements it is best to try and convince Carbine now instead of when the game is in late beta/early release.

[athlonmax]

Some cool in-game screenshots from this link and,

Fixing an abandoned outpost for the settler path?