[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[Stormkhan]

Let's say it's in a downed state.

You can still play DAoC, although Uthgard and ToA don't live up to the original. WoW was also quite enjoyable for solo PvP at times. Unfortunately all other games since then have either copied WoW's mistakes or tried to make square wheels happen.

WoW arenas were still strong until MoP. MMO pvp is never balanced and probably never will be. Some argue its broken/unfair/gear-dependant/etc; but many people still enjoy it. I know it did until Mid-Cata <3

[RoninaThorstone]

WoW arenas were still strong until MoP. MMO pvp is never balanced and probably never will be. Some argue its broken/unfair/gear-dependant/etc; but many people still enjoy it. I know it did until Mid-Cata <3

Fun is sort of independant of balance. Sometimes imbalance can ruin fun but perfect balance isn't needed for fun. I remember for a while there in wotlk, MLG dropped wows 3v3 because people were sick of watching MPR v MPR every match. I think that they picked it up again after blizzard 'convinced them' (with money) to host wows arena again.

There's a bunch of aspects of MMO pvp that make it so "true pvpers" won't enjoy it. The main problem is that "true mmoers" hate all the things that "true pvpers" would want implemented.

[Feranor]

WoW arenas were still strong until MoP. MMO pvp is never balanced and probably never will be. Some argue its broken/unfair/gear-dependant/etc; but many people still enjoy it. I know it did until Mid-Cata <3

WoW Arena is not MMO PvP. It reduces the game's overworld to a mere lobby from which you join instanced matches.

[Stormkhan]

There's a bunch of aspects of MMO pvp that make it so "true pvpers" won't enjoy it. The main problem is that "true mmoers" hate all the things that "true pvpers" would want implemented.

Agree somewhat, disagree a teeny tiny bit. I believe myself to be a pvp-pro person and I`m quite good at MoBAs (LoL Diamond at the moment) and FPS games like counterstrike back in the day. However WoW-Arenas were the `hardest` PvP I`ve done in any game. The sheer amount of focus and co ordination was insane just to get to gladiator title let alone Rank 1.

I love balance in PvP. But the sort of imbalance created in MMOs is not that bad in my opinion. Sure, some comps are better than others in areans, or someone outgears you and outright owns you. But thats the fun part in MMOs! You can always catch up eventually and deliver the punishment in due time.

So all in all you can say a true-pvper can be a true mmoer!

- - - Updated - - -

WoW Arena is not MMO PvP. It reduces the game's overworld to a mere lobby from which you join instanced matches.

Sure its not GW2 WvWvW, but its better than that in my opinion. We`ve seen mindless zergs in largescale battles. Its fun for a week or two until you realize numbers matter and nothing else. MMOs using arena and rated battlegrounds are more competitive when it comes to PvP and cater to a hardcore pvp audience. Zerg-fest 100 player+ battles are a good side-line though and this traditional form of MMO-pvp should be kept alive imo.

[RoninaThorstone]

WoW Arena is not MMO PvP..

However WoW-Arenas were the `hardest` PvP I`ve done in any game. So all in all you can say a true-pvper can be a true mmoer!

Are you seeing the issue now? This is why I put scare quotes around "true pvpers".

You have the arena people saying they are the true pvpers, the rbg people saying that they are the chosen people, and the wpvpers saying that the government is listening to them via cheerios.

[Stormkhan]

Point is, any form of pvp which can be competitive whereby only a few can be consistently on the top, is true pvp. Whether it be Arenas/RBGs/Wpvpers/Tetris-champs/monkeys-with-bananas w/e

- - - Updated - - -

As long as the same rules are followed in Wildstar I`ll be happy. However I do not like Rift PvP, because anyone can grind up to Prestige rank 80 (highest pvp rank) just by playing or even afk-grinding. There is no way to distinguish a good player from a bad.

- - - Updated - - -

Titles/Ladders/Gear/shiny armor pieces etc all help make the differentiation visible.

[RoninaThorstone]

Point is, any form of pvp which can be competitive whereby only a few can be consistently on the top, is true pvp. Whether it be Arenas/RBGs/Wpvpers/Tetris-champs/monkeys-with-bananas w/e

Ah, but competitive is subjective! People say that arena isn't a competitive pvp form because of class imbalance and gear ect. Imbalances in classes and comps make it so it's just minmaxing gear and following a flexiable combat script. People say rbgs take more strategy but again, you run into certain classes dominating certain maps ect. And wvwvw is considered a skilless zergfest.

Put another way, all mmo pvp would be considered competitive by your definition. AoC, War, WoW, swtor, rift... Because within those communities there are those who consistantly excel in pvp.

[Valeron]

pvp is competitive by its very own nature

[Stormkhan]

Put another way, all mmo pvp would be considered competitive by your definition. AoC, War, WoW, swtor, rift... Because within those communities there are those who consistantly excel in pvp.

Not all of them or all categories of PvP within them. Anything that is competitive enough to have titles/awards attached based on getting to the top X% of the total player-base, but it is important that the position is gained not just by 100% grinding, but a factor of skill involved. The string attached here (and where you are on the right track) is that that `skill-factor` has to be recognizable, or at the least very hard to attain.

Counter-argumentatively, not everyone can possess that skill/determination/focus in some categories. Like WoW arena, where not everyone can get to the top 0.5% just by playing all day. You have to be good at it. Competitively then those get the titles are actually very good at pvp in that game.
Arenas in WoW clearly made that distinction (epitome of pvp-skill in WoW); Anyone good in arenas would automatically be good at every form of pvp in WoW, whether they be BGs or world-pvp.

Wildstar with rated bgs and areans follows the same pattern as i see it. Therefore I`m looking forward to it more than I am with EQ Next and other 2014-15 incoming MMOs.

[Lycanroc]

I'm just checking against a list of things that are known to smother any chance of decent PvP developing in this particular genre. This particular faux-pas killed TERA, for instance. Why won't it kill Wildstar?

While I'm at it, let's try a couple more potential death sentences:

• lack of spammable direct targeted heals
• lack of passive CC immunities
• sprint meter
• "active defense" (e.g. GW2's dodge rolls, AoC's shields)
• "dynamic combat" (e.g. skill shots, AoC's combos)
• downed state
• forced movement (e.g. Fear, Knockback)
• being locked into animations
• melee attacks requiring the user to stand still
• volatile targeting / unreliable abilities (e.g. GW2 abilities missing for stupid reasons and still going on full cooldown)
• classes that combine burst with CC or Stealth
• "immersion" (e.g. blur, screen shaking)
• sluggish / floaty controls (including camera movement)
• slow strafing
• low maximum camera distance
• narrow FoV
• gear progression through PvP
• ELO
• instanced PvP
• corpse looting (that's PK, not PvP)
• "criminal" systems (that's RP, not PvP)
• unavoidable underwater combat
• flying

And of course a lot more. But those should cover most of the reasons why there haven't been any MMORPGs with good PvP since DAoC. Maybe I should make those into a Bingo chart.

I'm quite sure Wildstar already has a fuckton of those you listed. We have dodging, telegraphed moves, sprinting, animation locking (I've heard from a few reports), and I'm sure there will be gear/rank progression in Wildstar PvP. And you apparently think fucking WoW arenas are great, yet you hate 'instanced pvp'?

[Valeron]

Well it's a list of his "don't likes" and seems to think that only his ideas are what makes a successful mmo

[RoninaThorstone]

I'm quite sure Wildstar already has a fuckton of those you listed. We have dodging, telegraphed moves, sprinting, animation locking (I've heard from a few reports), and I'm sure there will be gear/rank progression in Wildstar PvP.

Well, wildstar doesn't have action locks but it does have abilities that you need to hold still to use.

And yeah, like I said to him a bit back, he will not have fun in wildstar.

(Heh, imagine what would happen if he learned about the "mash a random button to escape from cc!" thing)

[Lycanroc]

Well, wildstar doesn't have action locks but it does have abilities that you need to hold still to use.

And yeah, like I said to him a bit back, he will not have fun in wildstar.

(Heh, imagine what would happen if he learned about the "mash a random button to escape from cc!" thing)

How about the "Sprint to get away from everyone" button?

[Kelimbror]

While I'm at it, let's try a couple more potential death sentences

I didn't realize WoW, GW2, and every other MMO was dead. I'd like to know how you access the alternate dimension where this is true.

[Feranor]

As long as the same rules are followed in Wildstar I`ll be happy. However I do not like Rift PvP, because anyone can grind up to Prestige rank 80 (highest pvp rank) just by playing or even afk-grinding. There is no way to distinguish a good player from a bad.

Titles/Ladders/Gear/shiny armor pieces etc all help make the differentiation visible.

Not all of them or all categories of PvP within them. Anything that is competitive enough to have titles/awards attached based on getting to the top X% of the total player-base, but it is important that the position is gained not just by 100% grinding, but a factor of skill involved. The string attached here (and where you are on the right track) is that that `skill-factor` has to be recognizable, or at the least very hard to attain.

Counter-argumentatively, not everyone can possess that skill/determination/focus in some categories. Like WoW arena, where not everyone can get to the top 0.5% just by playing all day. You have to be good at it. Competitively then those get the titles are actually very good at pvp in that game.
Arenas in WoW clearly made that distinction (epitome of pvp-skill in WoW); Anyone good in arenas would automatically be good at every form of pvp in WoW, whether they be BGs or world-pvp.

Reputation. The premise that you need the game to proclaim you as the best instead of your fellow players is one of the root problems why WoW Arena is dysfunctional. And to call this pitiful mess of a FotM setup- and choreography-driven circlejerk the "epitome of PvP-skill in WoW" is just silly. I've played on the "elite" German arena server and the Gladiator title was pretty much a guarantee that you were dealing with a lowlife sadist incapable of much more than reeling off his Arena rotation. The only way you'd see them in WPvP was in a setup like Frost Mage + Disc Priest fighting 2v1. They're only good at something not worth being good at.

I'm quite sure Wildstar already has a fuckton of those you listed. We have dodging, telegraphed moves, sprinting, animation locking (I've heard from a few reports), and I'm sure there will be gear/rank progression in Wildstar PvP. And you apparently think fucking WoW arenas are great, yet you hate 'instanced pvp'?

No, WoW Arena is the worst PvP system I've experienced so far. It has all the disadvantages of an MMORPG (gear dependency, RNG, biased devs buffing their pet classes and nerfing others, PvE changes messing with PvP etc.) but none of the advantages (persistent overworld, variety, freedom, surprise etc.) That's its major shortcoming from a technical design perspective.

Well it's a list of his "don't likes" and seems to think that only his ideas are what makes a successful mmo

Ah, the good ol' "That's just your subjective opinion!" fallacy. As intellectually dishonest as it is vapid.

I didn't realize WoW, GW2, and every other MMO was dead. I'd like to know how you access the alternate dimension where this is true.

I clarified this in another post shortly after:

"Dead" as in "Any PvP player worth taking seriously wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole."

[Ashana Darkmoon]

"Dead" as in "Any PvP player worth taking seriously wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

PvP means different things to different people. Arena PvPers like that format because it is the best representation of individual skill + small group coordination. WvW PvPers like that format because it emphasizes group tactics and the chaos of big battle. World PvPers like that format because it is the most random/unscripted/dangerous and because a lot of them like ganking.

There are currently games for all of those.

[Feranor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

PvP means different things to different people. Arena PvPers like that format because it is the best representation of individual skill + small group coordination. WvW PvPers like that format because it emphasizes group tactics and the chaos of big battle. World PvPers like that format because it is the most random/unscripted/dangerous and because a lot of them like ganking.

There are currently games for all of those.

I never modified my assertion. I included the "no true" from the start. Thus, no No true Scotsman fallacy has been committed.

The best representation of individual skill is solo PvP. For small group coordination, "small man" (i.e. WPvP with a group smaller than the group limit). Arena is mostly a representation of who spent the most time learning a fairly static choreography where the only factors are your own group setup and your opponents' (and maybe whether it's the map with the bridge...) The biggest misunderstanding, however, is that WPvP is nothing but zerg fights. If your game isn't hostile towards non-zerg group PvP (e.g. DAoC), the players are going to do just that. That's one of the things GW2 did absolutely wrong. They consider WvW to be a "casual" endgame and thus designed it around nothing but zerging because, after all, in their mind, the serious PvP players want repetitive "scenarios" where all that matters is that you're running the current "meta". Guess who quit the game after one or two months? The 8vs8 players from DAoC.

[Valeron]

Ah, the good ol' "That's just your subjective opinion!" fallacy. As intellectually dishonest as it is vapid.

Right because only your opinion matters. Carry on then.

[Stormkhan]

Right because only your opinion matters. Carry on then.

LaL +1, in my opinion MMO arenas are very skill based even if you talk about fotm comps. Not many people end up being rank 1 or gladiator only due to fotm.

Any form of arena is fun for me in MMOs at least; I know this was traditionally hated because MMOs meant big-ass-battles-only. Times change, things change, and I lub smaller battles than bigger ones. Same reason I love 25 man raids instead of 40 man. Every member counts instead of only a few. And unless every player pushes to the limit, the objective cannot be reached!

[RoninaThorstone]

Any form of arena is fun for me in MMOs at least; I know this was traditionally hated because MMOs meant big-ass-battles-only. Times change, things change, and I lub smaller battles than bigger ones. Same reason I love 25 man raids instead of 40 man. Every member counts instead of only a few. And unless every player pushes to the limit, the objective cannot be reached!

Keep in mind that a small team of horde (as few as 3-4) were able to hold IBGY against 40 allys back in the old days. I remember in TBC when they added 'reinforcements' to AV... Pretty much meant the horde could win every single time.

SH bunker and gy were completely undefendable so the horde got a forward GY and a 100 point advantage. A few horde could kill the allies by defending the elites and snaring / aoeing down the allies in the pass at IBGY. All those who died spawned back at the top of the map. This was back when entrapment didn't have a DR and could spam proc on frost trap. So 1 hunter could snare all of them for like 20 seconds. Once they all were cleared out, they were forced to the top of the map and unable to retake SHgy. Just a matter of grinding them after that. Taking the tower next to SHgy was just icing... and an insurmountable advantage of 2 towers burnt for the horde.

mmm.

That was back in the days when hunters were able to hp stack to have 10 to 30 % more hp than top geared tanks.