[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[RoninaThorstone]

you believe these devs but not the people working on wildstar.. awesome.

If you want to find out about what a shark attack is like... You ask a shark attack victim.

[Deleted]

If you want to find out about what a shark attack is like... You ask a shark attack victim.

so people with a track record of lying.. suddenly become credible. got ya.

[Kelimbror]

it's pretty obvious if you simply look at the trend of business models over the years.

Apparently we aren't allowed to use that logic, or the fact that most new games are launching as free or buy to play, or that their continuous production of expansions and new games means that they are making revenue. Also not allowed are pointing to all of the other genres of games that use free to play models and using their figures to back up the claim.

I mean I guess subscriptions are the only way to go if you are going to discredit every piece of information that says otherwise. Whoo-hoo communism! Not a great start to this game's fan base. I hope there are lots of quiet people out there who don't feel this way that will come support this game at a later date.

[RoninaThorstone]

so people with a track record of lying.. suddenly become credible. got ya.

They can't lie when talking to their investors. If you want to go read the Q reports go for it. The rest of us already have.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 05:17 PM ----------

EQ = now f2p
EQ2 = now f2p
War = still subscription with less than 50k subscribers (we think)
Rift = still subscription with about 400k subscribers (estimates)
lotro = now f2p
Aion = now f2p
Tera = now f2p
TSW = now b2p
AoC = now f2p
swtor = now f2p
gw2 = launched as b2p (still getting content updates)
firefall = launching as f2p
defiance = launcing as b2p
Vindictus = launched as f2p
dcuo= now f2p
marvel heroes= launching as f2p
path of exile= launched as f2p
eve = subscription, 500k (with a way to pay for your subscription in game)
NWO = launching as f2p
DDO = now f2p
EON= launching as f2p
Dust514 = f2p

Btw, this is what they are talking about when they say 'the entire industry is going f2p'

F2P/B2P outnumbers subscription games by a lot and now people are starting to skip trying subscription.

[Deleted]

They can't lie when talking to their investors. If you want to go read the Q reports go for it. The rest of us already have.

should of used that link rather than the video then.. but anyway as this is just going round and round lets just agree to disagree.

[RoninaThorstone]

should of used that link rather than the video then.. but anyway as this is just going round and round lets just agree to disagree.

First, the game many of you have been tracking closely, Star Wars - The Old Republic. Although it launched well, subscriptions have been on a declining trajectory and have now slipped below 1 million. Last year we announced that the breakeven point was roughly 500,000 subscribers. While we are well above that today, that is not good enough. The message from players exiting the game is clear -- 40% say they were turned off by the monthly subscription, and many indicate they would come back if we offer a free-to-play model.

And if you need me to find where they say they've gained players and subscribers since going f2p I can. that was obviously post nov 15th.

[Deleted]

i guess i was part of the 60% who thought the game wasnt very good.

[RoninaThorstone]

i guess i was part of the 60% who thought the game wasnt very good.

Yep. However, I bet EA would have preferred not losing 600k+ subscribers to launching as a subscription only game.

[Deleted]

Yep. However, I bet EA would have preferred not losing 600k+ subscribers to launching as a subscription only game.

hiring bioware for an mmo was the first mistake, then pushing it through the door relying on fan loyalty for success was the second.

[Delanath]

So essentially the reason people left SWTOR was because they didn't want to pay a subscription for a game that wasn't polished. However, the game is compelling enough to be played for free by quite a few people. The failure then, as I see it, was expecting people to pay for a game plus monthly subscription that wasn't polished. It's both of those things together, not either one separately. If the game were released in it's current form, but still had a subscription, people would probably stick around longer. If the game was released as it was but as a b2p or f2p option then more people would probably still be around. You can't expect people to pay a monthly sub for a game that is lacking in content, polish, etc. However, if you can release a game that has compelling storylines, a high amount of polish and decent end game then I bet people would pay the subscription for the first few months.

I see f2p games as being part of the same mmo market, but in a different subgroup. There is room for both groups, p2p and f2p, to have success because they cater to different audiences. I have a feeling that sub-based games are going to have to set themselves apart by releasing content patches more often than f2p games though, or just have more compelling gameplay overall to keep people sticking around. F2p games can subsist on less end game content and polish while devoting a large part of their time to cosmetic/fun upgrades or being able to buy quality of life items. I'm sure they'll have updates to dungeons/raids to keep people around as well but they're going to devote the majority of time and resources to their money-makers.

I will say this though, gone are the days where MMO's are all sub-based. F2p is an attractive option for many types of customers and it's a sound business model. A game can survive quite a while in that state.

[Kelimbror]

However, if you can release a game that has compelling storylines, a high amount of polish and decent end game then I bet people would pay the subscription for the first few months.

So this should be the new goal? To try and get it while the getting is good before going F2P and invalidating all the money you spent with them already?

SWTOR is just one instance of this happening. There are plenty of other games that delivered more refined experiences and had to go F2P. There are even more games that give that experience that never had subscriptions attached to them in the first place. You say it's not one or the other, except we have proof that games from all avenues of quality and production have gone F2P rapidly or launched B2P/F2P and are still here.

The only common factor among all of these games is that they don't have subscriptions anymore or never had them. Logically you can assume that a subscription is a large portion of the problem. On top of that, plenty of people spend more than a subscription amount of money when they are freely given the choice to do so. Going further to point out that it's not a problem with the game and not a problem with the money, but specifically being tied into a subscription and having no choices along the way.

[RoninaThorstone]

So this should be the new goal? To try and get it while the getting is good before going F2P and invalidating all the money you spent with them already?

Pissing off the players who were willing to give you money is always the worst idea. >_<

come get your free cartel coins you earned! (but you have to pay for them first!) lol...

But yeah. This is part of why games are launching as f2p/b2p. The transition pisses people off, particularly the important people who might have been f2p whales had you only not pissed them off! (IE: Collectors edition people)

[Razael]

You guys need to ask yourselves this. With so many good choices in F2P/B2P with regular content updates , why would you pay for a sub? Either the game is the next coming of god, or it sets the standard for the next MMOs or you have so much invested in a game, time and money wise that you're comfortable with paying for a Sub as long as they patch more of what you already enjoy, otherwise it ends up like all before, doomed to have its subscribers sink below acceptable numbers, and making a transition to a model that should have probably been THE model since it was launched.

TLDR I expect nothing else other than a B2P or F2P Cash shop game. I will not pay for subs when i have so many quality games as B2P/F2P to choose from (in which i actually spend money getting Skins, Character Makeovers, Outfits, XP Boosters etc.).

[papajohn4]

And what? Everyone else failed as sub games too?

The track record for sub based games is not good. Period.

I am saying, that for this games sake, they should avoid that pitfall altogether and launch as b2p / f2p like others have begun to.
Historically, launching as subscription has been the kiss of near death for most MMOs.

You are very wrong here. First of all most of the games you think that failed they did not. The Korean games, Aion and Tera are having over a million subscribers in Korea and still running.Just because they "failed" in the west doesn't mean they failed as games. Secondly, You EQ2 was 8 years on subscription model, War is still, Rift and EVE still have subscriptions and a solid playerbase. EQ is just 14 years old and it was very successful for years..so lets sum it again and see how many did succeed and how many failed..EQ, EQ2, DAoC(in its days), wow, Rift, EVE, Tera(over million sub in korea), Aion(like Tera) and from the other hand Swtor, lotro, AoC and what else? The sub playerbase is huge and if Wildstar is going to be quality game it can surely go for sub..if their game is not a quality one then they can go as f2p...

10,000,000 people subscribing to World of WarCraft every month. Add in the number of people paying subscriptions in freemium games + the random games that require subs, and that number is easily 11M or more. Add the ~400k subscribers in Rift and 500k in EVE, then add in people who currently aren’t subscribed to any MMO at all but would happily subscribe to a game worth their money, and you suddenly have a number I can’t even begin to estimate, but I know it’s a substantial number. And let’s not forget that a game doesn’t need a million subscribers to be a success.

Btw, this is what they are talking about when they say 'the entire industry is going f2p'

F2P/B2P outnumbers subscription games by a lot and now people are starting to skip trying subscription.

Again your list have some crap MMOs 10% of people don't even know like Vindictus, MMOs have not launched yet to see their quality but since they are launching as f2p I don't have to see it, not even their developers trust their game, and a bunch of console games too...Also you still have in your list games that have subscription in their respective areas like Aion and Tera..just because the Europeans didn't subscribed to that games, they are not f2p. And lets also forget the 10M of wow alone that is tripple the people of all those f2p combined and yes, its sure that subcription model is dying....

First, the game many of you have been tracking closely, Star Wars - The Old Republic. Although it launched well, subscriptions have been on a declining trajectory and have now slipped below 1 million. Last year we announced that the breakeven point was roughly 500,000 subscribers. While we are well above that today, that is not good enough. The message from players exiting the game is clear -- 40% say they were turned off by the monthly subscription, and many indicate they would come back if we offer a free-to-play model.

And if you need me to find where they say they've gained players and subscribers since going f2p I can. that was obviously post nov 15th.

Sorry but this is bullshit...those people who left left because they didn't liked the game no because the game wasn't free!and what do you expect them to say? "our game wasn't ready and we released a game that 60% of the people didn't find fun, so since people think our game doesn't worth their money we are going for free so we can milk money from the fans via gambling with our packs". They would never say that, instead they blame the business model..When wow loses 500k subs they don't say that "if our game would free, we wouldn't lose those players" but instead they try to find what they did wrong and lost them.

Mirve, I agree that there are lot of quality MMOs free now and I like lot of them and playing them. I was subscribed in swtor until last year November and I have also subscribed in Lotro for a year+. Of course the competition have entered high levels but a new game if it has enough quality can keep a 400-500k subs and stay profitable...its not like we get millions of subs or go f2p..this is a false logic. and no, there is no need to be a god MMO, it needs to be polished and quality MMO with active developing team

[Kelimbror]

You are very wrong here.

You say he's wrong and point to games in the East, which isn't relevant to what we're discussing..especially since those games were forced to be F2P here, and then listed some games which aren't old enough to have proven themselves combined with games that have been out since the dawn of time and somehow this is supposed to speak to the current state of MMOs trending to F2P and B2P?

On top of all of that, you are somehow using WoW as a legitimate reason why other games need to have subscriptions when it is actually the biggest reason they certainly should not.

Oooook.

Edit: Also you bumped the list of subscriptions that 'succeeded'(lol subjectivity) up to what, 7 maybe 8? Compared to the hundreds of F2P games out there. Hrmm.

[Edge-]

EQ2 was 8 years on subscription model

And has made the transition because SoE realized that they could make more money and see more success with a F2P/freemium model than they could with a subscription only model in the current market. It was never a smashing success, but for about 4-5 years after launch it saw pretty good success, but in a market that didn't include F2P games of any level of quality like we have now.

War is still

And stands as a stark example of what happens if you let your games population slip so much. The game barely exists, with only one server per region (not even a high capacity server), last I heard only one real active guild per faction, and no content updates to speak of.

Rift and EVE still have subscriptions and a solid playerbase.

Two non-WoW successful games. EVE fills a niche that few other games fill (Perpetuum online sorta goes for it but is even more niche), and is a great game. Rift has been a surprise to see it maintain the model for so long, and while it continues to be successful, we don't know to what degree.

EQ is just 14 years old and it was very successful for years..

And SoE clearly though that in today's market they could make it even more successful if they transitioned it. For nearly a decade F2P games weren't even a thing during this time.

Tera(over million sub in korea)

Sauce? Last I remember it went F2P over there as well. I know their F2P server was a big hit for them and was more popular than their subscription servers some time back. But we're talking about the West, where it saw moderate success at best.

Aion(like Tera)

Aion isn't super successful anymore. It makes up a small percentage of NCsofts revenue (8%, just ahead of Lineage 2, but behind Lineage, Blade & Soul, and Guild Wars 2). Again though, we're talking about the West, where Aion has never seen too much success.

Swtor, lotro, AoC and what else?

Champions Online, DC Universe Online, Vanguard, The Secret World, APB Reloaded, DDO, Fallen Earth, Star Trek Online, and there are more beyond that.

The sub playerbase is huge and if Wildstar is going to be quality game it can surely go for sub..if their game is not a quality one then they can go as f2p...

The subscription playerbase playing WoW is huge. The playerbase playing EVE is pretty damn big. But the whole subscription playerbase is shrinking, and they're the hardest group to get to leave their current game and move to another subscription game. A subscription is a huge barrier of entry, so removing it (and/or the box price) goes a long way in getting people to try your game and stick with it.

Every game mentioned in this post aimed to be a "quality game", but either missed the mark or couldn't find a big enough audience.

[papajohn4]

The subscription playerbase playing WoW is huge. The playerbase playing EVE is pretty damn big. But the whole subscription playerbase is shrinking, and they're the hardest group to get to leave their current game and move to another subscription game. A subscription is a huge barrier of entry, so removing it (and/or the box price) goes a long way in getting people to try your game and stick with it.

Every game mentioned in this post aimed to be a "quality game", but either missed the mark or couldn't find a big enough audience.

Of course, which come to the point that they went f2p because they were not quality MMOs. You realize also that a game going or transition to a f2p model is drastically difference that a subscription game? So we give up as a playerbase and we accept that model? Well sorry but I refuse to...I will stay with sub games. Again for the numbers are clear, wow+Eve+rift > f2p games. Just because no one else managed to make a quality game to ensure a profitable playerbase doesn't mean it is a "business model problem". If Wildstar Developers don't have trust in their game and they believe that their game does not have the quality of wow, EVE, Rift then I will take their word for it and I will treat Wildstar the same.

And has made the transition because SoE realized that they could make more money and see more success with a F2P/freemium model than they could with a subscription only model in the current market.

yes but because the game is very outdated now, is not like it released yesterday and they went f2p...also I don't have proof for Tera but I reading Steparu and he says that currently the 3 top games in Korea are Blade and Soul, Tera, Archage all of them having subs. But ok we are talking about west. Why should I take the wow subscribers like they don't exist? Just because no game managed to get plyers from wow doesn't mean they don't exist. atm the players paying a subscription for an MMO are more than players are not paying a sub for. Also the players that are currently not paying a sub for an MMO they could probably do that for an MMO that will release in future and they will like.

On top of all of that, you are somehow using WoW as a legitimate reason why other games need to have subscriptions when it is actually the biggest reason they certainly should not.

Oooook.

Edit: Also you bumped the list of subscriptions that 'succeeded'(lol subjectivity) up to what, 7 maybe 8? Compared to the hundreds of F2P games out there. Hrmm.

Hundreds of free MMOs and if you add all their players together they do not make the players of wow+rift+eve. So from one hand you have 3 quality MMOs with x number of subscribers and from the other hand you have hundreds of f2p games with y number of subscribers. Now x > y and that say that subscription model is winning here and that people are willing to pay a subscription if the game is quality one.

Now if you believe that Wildstar is not and that it should join the rank of the hundreds f2p games that "failed" to get a solid playerbase, then I think this is a decision the developers should make and not you(we) here. Also I am surprised how people are most worry about the profits of the companies than the quality of the game itself cause when the game goes f2p with a cash shop then the design philosophy it changes for sure and I don't think that is good for me as a player.

[Kelimbror]

Why should I take the wow subscribers like they don't exist?

BECAUSE THEY ARE PLAYING WORLD OF WARCRAFT

Hundreds of free MMOs and if you add all their players together they do not make the players of wow+rift+eve.

How do you know? Do you have the numbers on that? Not to mention that F2P and subscription models aren't limited to the MMO genre. The number of people in gaming who play free games vastly dwarfs the number of people playing subscription services.

So from one hand you have 3 quality MMOs with x number of subscribers and from the other hand you have hundreds of f2p games with y number of subscribers. Now x > y and that say that subscription model is winning here and that people are willing to pay a subscription if the game is quality one.

You just fell victim to the same thing other people on here did. You just said that hundreds of games aren't quality based on the fact that they don't have a subscription. Not only is that as subjcetive as it can get, but it's woefully wrong.

God this game is dead if it keeps drawing people who think like this and actively petition for the game to be a sub because that's what will make it good. FFS.

[Elim Garak]

BECAUSE THEY ARE PLAYING WORLD OF WARCRAFT

FOR NOW

Nothing stops them from switching to other sub-based MMORPG, 'cept for absence of the one that is better than WoW

[Deleted]

@Edgecrusher

The subscription playerbase playing WoW is huge. The playerbase playing EVE is pretty damn big. But the whole subscription playerbase is shrinking, and they're the hardest group to get to leave their current game and move to another subscription game. A subscription is a huge barrier of entry, so removing it (and/or the box price) goes a long way in getting people to try your game and stick with it.

Every game mentioned in this post aimed to be a "quality game", but either missed the mark or couldn't find a big enough audience.

I don't see in what way a subcription is a ''huge barrier''.
If your game is good people will pay for the sub,the standard sub is very cheap.I don't see how it forms a barrier.