[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[Deleted]

i hope you just learn to read as i wasnt laughing at his opinion.. i was laughing at his statement which started "the fact is..." then giving some random generalization of what vanilla wow players are.

Its subjective because the game has changed from expansion to expansion to a point where it doesnt feel or play like the original released game.

[inboundpaper]

I like just looked into this game, it looks like it could be pretty cool, but maybe i'm just a sucker for the Ratchet and Clank/Jak and Daxter art style.

[Kelimbror]

Yeah but ehh..Kitty..nothing surprising there, right?

Yes.

I wish I could elaborate better, but I just can't. The best I can say is that things that were intially written off b/c: It's beta, it's bugged, it's etc...seem to actually be the design of the game. Additionally, it's not that it feels like WoW (not that I would know or anything) but it's the fact that it's starting to become clearer it is aiming to be WoW. That's a much different issue and regardless of how much it's said on forums, no games have really come out to do that.

Even Rift, the arguably most wowy wow out there didn't really try to be it. Sure they had tongue in cheek ads, they had a traditional format, but they weren't trying to be that game at all. Likewise SWTOR, the next closest comparison from a system perspective 100% wasn't trying to be it to the point it erred the wrong direction and had to bring the game closer to it.

Wildstar on the otherhand is starting to come off as a caricature of WoW. Honestly I think that's the best way to decribe it. While their stated design intentions seem to resound they are developing a game for every man, it seems the reality is they are only trying to attract people who want to make fun of WoW, while still continuing to play a meta version of it.

It's very alarming to say the least.

[Vespian]

Yes.

I wish I could elaborate better, but I just can't. The best I can say is that things that were intially written off b/c: It's beta, it's bugged, it's etc...seem to actually be the design of the game. Additionally, it's not that it feels like WoW (not that I would know or anything) but it's the fact that it's starting to become clearer it is aiming to be WoW. That's a much different issue and regardless of how much it's said on forums, no games have really come out to do that.

Even Rift, the arguably most wowy wow out there didn't really try to be it. Sure they had tongue in cheek ads, they had a traditional format, but they weren't trying to be that game at all. Likewise SWTOR, the next closest comparison from a system perspective 100% wasn't trying to be it to the point it erred the wrong direction and had to bring the game closer to it.

Wildstar on the otherhand is starting to come off as a caricature of WoW. Honestly I think that's the best way to decribe it. While their stated design intentions seem to resound they are developing a game for every man, it seems the reality is they are only trying to attract people who want to make fun of WoW, while still continuing to play a meta version of it.

It's very alarming to say the least.

Well, at least you're being hounest about it, which I can definitely praise and appreciate. Who knows, it might turn out great. Ben Affleck might be a good Batman :P

[Deleted]

Bored with WoW? Try, WoW... IN SPACE!!!

But seriously, they aren't the first to try this idea. Look at Rift. Their 'vanilla' was the spiritual successor to TBC. It had crazy raids that came out at a crazy pace and a very hardcore raiding community. Unfortunately, when you make a game around hardcore raiding, which is like 5% (being generous) of a MMO community, then cross is with people who are willing to play something other than wow, and then cross that with people who are willing to pay a subscription... You don't have that many people.

The fact is, those of us who played vanilla are working 60 hours a week, have wives, and probably a kid or two. We don't play video games 8+ hours a day anymore. People think that it's the younger generation of gamers that is pushing for different types of end game, skill instead of time progression, ect (usually misunderstanding a desire for hard and fast content for casual, farmville gaming) but it's actually the older generation, the ones who raided AQ40 or pvp grinded to commander or grinded the insane title when it was difficult. If you look at what happened with Rifts most recent expansion, they went for the most ridiculous level grind, reputation grind, grind grind grind. Their community, which was hardcore raiders who mainly cared about end game PVE responded very negatively, essentially saying, "you want me to do all this shit? I don't have time for that. I just wanted to raid."

@ Keren, it isn't the 15 dollars a month that's the issue. It's the time commitment to two MMOs. What if something comes up and I don't get to play for a month? I will have wasted 30 bucks. I can get a pretty large bag of vegetables at the farmers market for 30 bucks. Mix that with some rice or pasta and I have food for a week. I have always said I think that PPH (pay per hour) is a better model than a flat subscription fee because at least then I am paying for time I actually spend playing the game. If wow offered it's eastern payment model in the west, I probably wouldn't have stopped playing it.

Lol, this is so true. The guys we call 'casual gamers' is just the younger generation who want to come in, play the game and experience all the content. The older generation who had quite some time at the beginning of WoW just isn't the same as it was at that time, due to a lack of time as you already told. I think the only difference between us and the somewhat younger generation who didn't play the game in the first few years is that most of us don't mind we won't experience all the content.

We want everyone who invest a lot of time in the game will get the opportunity to experience the epic raid content, not every guy who can click on the LFR button. If you don't invest a lot of time, you don't deserve to get all the epic loot and see the hardest bosses in game. That's how it should be in a MMO and that's what Blizzard doesn't seem to get at this time.

LFR is one thing, but the time consuming daily's they implemented in MoP are even worse. Grinding days and days for hours and hours for only a few item levels higher gear, that's not the reward you'd expect to get. It's just stupid atm, they don't seem to understand you don't a good feeling of accomplishment you get a better gear piece you already see coming for days. It's cool if you get a good item you always wanted, or finally see this raid content because you needed some sort of attunement which took you weeks of grinding. But no, Blizzard takes everything the wrong way, they let you grind for gear and click on a button for epic raid content. While it should be vice versa.

WildStar seem to aim at us 'older generation' in a way and atm I think they know what they're doing. You get good loot if you invest time, and I hope they understand players don't want every noob who only pays for the game and logs in a few hours every week isn't going to see all the content. It's a misunderstanding which Blizzard doesn't seem to get atm...

[Keren]

Its mostly a generation gap. The new young poeple have access to eveything in teh internet, everytime, nearly everywhere with their smartphones. They are born and raised with facebook, f2p ala card and mostly know nothing about working to gain something... (viva la cliché) That live style - to have everything available, everytime and for everybody - is the thing that wow seems try to implement in the latest years. I don't liked it and leaved..

I really hope that these things will not hold on or I will dwell on thoughts vorever about the good old times :P

[corebit]

Lol, this is so true. The guys we call 'casual gamers' is just the younger generation who want to come in, play the game and experience all the content. The older generation who had quite some time at the beginning of WoW just isn't the same as it was at that time, due to a lack of time as you already told. I think the only difference between us and the somewhat younger generation who didn't play the game in the first few years is that most of us don't mind we won't experience all the content.

We want everyone who invest a lot of time in the game will get the opportunity to experience the epic raid content, not every guy who can click on the LFR button. If you don't invest a lot of time, you don't deserve to get all the epic loot and see the hardest bosses in game. That's how it should be in a MMO and that's what Blizzard doesn't seem to get at this time.

LFR is one thing, but the time consuming daily's they implemented in MoP are even worse. Grinding days and days for hours and hours for only a few item levels higher gear, that's not the reward you'd expect to get. It's just stupid atm, they don't seem to understand you don't a good feeling of accomplishment you get a better gear piece you already see coming for days. It's cool if you get a good item you always wanted, or finally see this raid content because you needed some sort of attunement which took you weeks of grinding. But no, Blizzard takes everything the wrong way, they let you grind for gear and click on a button for epic raid content. While it should be vice versa.

WildStar seem to aim at us 'older generation' in a way and atm I think they know what they're doing. You get good loot if you invest time, and I hope they understand players don't want every noob who only pays for the game and logs in a few hours every week isn't going to see all the content. It's a misunderstanding which Blizzard doesn't seem to get atm...

I don't think you understood Bardarian's point. He actually says the older generation of gamers, most of the ones who have experienced vanilla WoW, no longer have that time to invest in a game.

Wildstar trying to appeal to the hardcore audience is what I don't like about the game. The devs are mistaken if they think a great portion of players today want to go back to vanilla WoW. That's just pure rose-tinted glasses syndrome. Even Blizzard devs have come out and said that if they didn't change WoW to target to a more casual crowd, the game would have been in very bad shape today.

[Deleted]

I don't think you understood Bardarian's point. He actually says the older generation of gamers, most of the ones who have experienced vanilla WoW, no longer have that time to invest in a game.

Wildstar trying to appeal to the hardcore audience is what I don't like about the game. The devs are mistaken if they think a great portion of players today want to go back to vanilla WoW. That's just pure rose-tinted glasses syndrome. Even Blizzard devs have come out and said that if they didn't change WoW to target to a more casual crowd, the game would have been in very bad shape today.

is that not why they offer 20 man raids.. which are totally different from the 40 man raids? Im confused as to what you think is going to be a massive time sink? do you want access to everything with minimum effort or time needed? didnt you know that you could make a guild and raid for one or two hours instead of three or four.. and even once or twice a week instead of a minimum of two times a week.

Its appealing to a wide audience.. thats why hopefully it has plenty of different kinds of content, solo, group, crafting, pvp, raids etc.

[corebit]

is that not why they offer 20 man raids.. which are totally different from the 40 man raids? Im confused as to what you think is going to be a massive time sink? do you want access to everything with minimum effort or time needed? didnt you know you can like make a guild a raid for one or two hours instead of three or four.. and even once or twice a week instead of a minimum of two times a week.

I don't know what is going to be a massive time sink in Wildstar, however as I'm trying to decide between spending money on this or ESO, I am not seeing a lot of good things for casual players. No, I don't want anything handed to me freely, and I think it's a very inaccurate stereotype of what casual means. I'm slowly completing the legendary cloak quest in WoW for example, over three months and still only halfway through, but I'm not complaining at all.

Its appealing to a wide audience.. thats why hopefully it has plenty of different kinds of content, solo, group, crafting, pvp, raids etc.

This remains to be seen. Every MMO claims to appeal to a wide audience. However Wildstar devs go out of their way specifically to tout how hardcore and difficult their game is, and how they look to vanilla WoW with great fondness.

Maybe all their "hardcore" talk is hitting me the wrong way, but that is my impression so far of Wildstar.

[Kelimbror]

Maybe all their "hardcore" talk is hitting me the wrong way, but that is my impression so far of Wildstar.

So it far it just sounds like hyperbole to be honest. The only factors in making this game 'hardcore' focused was by having somewhat dynamic raid content, advanced template use, and larger raids.

Of all of those, the only one I feasibly see making a difference is the dynamic content, which will inevitably frustrate a larger portion of the player base than it appeals to. Generally I feel like they have great ideas and poor implementation at this stage. I'll reserve total judgment until I see everything, but so far everything seems like a story of hyping features and then under delivering.

It makes me very worried about the so called solo progression outside of raids and the housing feature primarily. They both sound so revolutionary when talked up by the devs, but so did the combat and other elements that have proven to be standard (though still fun to me).

[Holtzmann]

It seems to me that the lack of general context about the game (most official videos are short and talk about a single isolated subject, the demos are also fairly focused) have allowed the hype to grow in directions the game simply wasn't intended to cover. And now things are finally being specified and divulged, the hype does what it's invariably fated to do: it comes crashes down.

I don't remember Carbine ever promising a revolutionary experience. In fact, my most vivid memory was of one of the developers saying they wanted to make an experience similar to Vanilla World of Warcraft with all the modern quality of life improvements. Wildstar is not meant to be MMO 3.0, it's just meant to be a fresh and interesting world for people to play in and have their fun, like they did back in the early days of WoW. They're aiming for the millions of people who burned out just stopped playing WoW for one reason or another. I certainly hope they can pull it off, even though the MMO culture has changed quite a bit lately.

Meanwhile, this is basically me (except I haven't stopped playing WoW):

I'm pretty happy with it being only a step or two away from WoW. I loved WoW, and I didn't quit because of game mechanics. So the fact that they're similar is good for me.

[Kelimbror]

I don't remember Carbine ever promising a revolutionary experience.

I wish I had time to find you links and videos, but yeah...they definitely have been touting this as something extraordinary. They are practically required by marketing standards and the drive to sell their product to do it this way. It's definitely not a perception problem.

Neither is it a slight against them, jus the unfortunate nature of business.

[Deleted]

i never mentioned casual once and i understand that people dont have alot of time but want to experience all that the game has to offer.. which is what i find confusing. How does any game or wildstar in particular prevent the player from doing this. Thats why im asking what you or others think is going to prevent them from doing whatever it is they wanted to do. People do raid "out of date" content or is it that you dont think you will be able to get into one of these "elite" 40 man raid groups. I can understand the issue with having content you want to do but for whatever real life commitments prevent you from doing them or at least on a regular basis is perhaps disheartening but is it really an issue?

Yes im very optimistic that we will get the volume of content we have been promised or at least hinted at recieving but im more than willing to give the developers a chance to show me thats its not all talk and that they can actually deliver what they "promised" us.

- - - Updated - - -

So it far it just sounds like hyperbole to be honest. The only factors in making this game 'hardcore' focused was by having somewhat dynamic raid content, advanced template use, and larger raids.

Of all of those, the only one I feasibly see making a difference is the dynamic content, which will inevitably frustrate a larger portion of the player base than it appeals to. Generally I feel like they have great ideas and poor implementation at this stage. I'll reserve total judgment until I see everything, but so far everything seems like a story of hyping features and then under delivering.

It makes me very worried about the so called solo progression outside of raids and the housing feature primarily. They both sound so revolutionary when talked up by the devs, but so did the combat and other elements that have proven to be standard (though still fun to me).

could the raids instead of an "eaiser mode" have a standard raid.. while the ranked / races would be the dynamic changing raids each week.

[Kelimbror]

could the raids instead of an "eaiser mode" have a standard raid.. while the ranked / races would be the dynamic changing raids each week.

They certainly could, but it doesn't match what they've said about the feature so far. They've specifically said that one week maybe your guild wouldn't be able to do a boss because it has a harder setup, but the next week you can knock him in a fire pit to give him a 100% dmg debuff and so you can kill it.

It really sounds wishy-washy to be honest...something that could frustrate a lot of players. I think your idea would be a better thing to do. Maybe always have the boss rooms setup in the easiest configuration as an option, minus whatever rewards come from doing the random mode.

[Holtzmann]

I wish I had time to find you links and videos, but yeah...they definitely have been touting this as something extraordinary. They are practically required by marketing standards and the drive to sell their product to do it this way. It's definitely not a perception problem.

Neither is it a slight against them, jus the unfortunate nature of business.

Maybe my time in marketing helped me ignore the fluff without even realizing it. I rarely look at marketing pitches nowadays without immediately seeing what's behind it.

At any rate, games with ongoing upkeep costs don't make themselves on marketing. I suspect most MMO players out there who are still playing their respective games were hooked not by advertisements and developer interviews, but by that most powerful of marketing pitches: word of mouth from friends and people they know.

[Kelimbror]

I suspect most MMO players out there who are still playing their respective games were hooked not by advertisements and developer interviews, but by that most powerful of marketing pitches: word of mouth from friends and people they know.

I completely disagree (what else is new, right?) I think they were hooked by the most powerful marketing pitch: getting to try/play the game for free.

[Holtzmann]

I completely disagree (what else is new, right?) I think they were hooked by the most powerful marketing pitch: getting to try/play the game for free.

And how do you think they got interested in playing the game in the first place? By seeing the advertisement amongst half a billion other FREE TO PLAY, PLAY NOW, COME PLAY OUR GAME! ads scattered over the Internet? :P

[Kelimbror]

And how do you think they got interested in playing the game in the first place? By seeing the advertisement amongst half a billion other FREE TO PLAY, PLAY NOW, COME PLAY OUR GAME! ads scattered over the Internet? :P

Ah, so it is in fact the marketing and not word of mouth/friends then? I rest my case. Win.

[Holtzmann]

Ah, so it is in fact the marketing and not word of mouth/friends then? I rest my case. Win.

Uh, no. My point was that advertisement and media material (including interviews) have a much smaller payoff and efficiency than world of mouth in the long run. WoW didn't build its peak population on banners and "CLICK HERE TO PLAY NOW".

By the way, didn't you mention something about putting words in other people's mouths? Or is it alright when followed by a winking emoticon? :P

[Kelimbror]

By the way, didn't you mention something about putting words in other people's mouths? Or is it alright when followed by a winking emoticon? :P

You should understand the difference between putting words in someone's mouth and a logical assessment of statements. I in no way even remotely put words in your mouth.
You said:

At any rate, games with ongoing upkeep costs don't make themselves on marketing. I suspect most MMO players out there who are still playing their respective games were hooked not by advertisements and developer interviews, but by that most powerful of marketing pitches: word of mouth from friends and people they know.

Then you said:

And how do you think they got interested in playing the game in the first place? By seeing the advertisement amongst half a billion other FREE TO PLAY, PLAY NOW, COME PLAY OUR GAME! ads scattered over the Internet? :P

To which I replied:

Ah, so it is in fact the marketing and not word of mouth/friends then? I rest my case. Win.