[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[zito]

Each stat represents something else so there's no overlap. it seems to be a minimal amount of stats even for me. Never heard people complain about too many stats considering most of these things are standard in the RPG world. Do read plenty of people complaining about lack of stats and how that oversimplification isn't widely appreciated.

It fits in the concept of allowing several setups and build types as more stats rather than throwing everything together in a very condensed group makes it easier to control the power of each build due to several layers that influence it.

Yes, you'll need different gear setups like in every other mmo, yes you'll need to see what works better for you although i'm sure others will do that thinking for you.


Just because WoW is making things simpler, because they feel it has no purpose doesn't mean it every other game should follow or that it even is a good call to make universally because it works for WoW. And let's be honest here in WoW they could pretty much reduced the number of stats to simply primary attributes as it really doesn't matter in that game.

You would have a point if:

-19 stats was common in MMORPGs
-If stats changed the way you play

Besides the standard tank/dps/heal. Stats in wildstar don't change the way you play, they boost the power of the player of how they intend to play.

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I doubt they felt that those stats had "no purpose" but rather the impact of their interaction tends to result in exploitation, imbalance, and more vertical progression (due to the multiplicative effect of stats). It's just too much of a headache most of the time.

ding ding ding

Pointless math is pointless and unnecessary and causes game imbalance without actually effecting gameplay. See big number complaint.

[Edge-]

And it doesn't matter if they are comparable to WoW it's still insane.

Yeah...the number of stats is too damn high. I have no problem with some niche stats and such, but having deflect and then critical deflect as two separate stats just seems silly as all hell.

[Loaf Lord]

Make sure to complain about it in the beta so they hopefully fix it.

[RoninaThorstone]

Yeah...the number of stats is too damn high. I have no problem with some niche stats and such, but having deflect and then critical deflect as two separate stats just seems silly as all hell.

Critical deflect makes Tyrndamere cry!

But yeah, I suspect that this decision has to do with building a meta game where all builds have a counter build.

[zito]

Critical deflect makes Tyrndamere cry!

But yeah, I suspect that this decision has to do with building a meta game where all builds have a counter build.

Which wouldn't be needed if they just removed +crit damage. +crit damage makes crit chance an insane stat which means it needs something to counter it meaning they implement another stat...

and the point is.... math? Stats don't effect gameplay just your numbers so I don't see the reason to add something so pointless and then add something to counter it. Waste of time.

[RoninaThorstone]

Which wouldn't be needed if they just removed +crit damage. +crit damage makes crit chance an insane stat which means it needs something to counter it meaning they implement another stat...

and the point is.... math?

Crit/crit damage < critical deflect < armorpen < crit/crit damage

Or something.

[Acidbaron]

You would have a point if:

-19 stats was common in MMORPGs
-If stats changed the way you play

Besides the standard tank/dps/heal. Stats in wildstar don't change the way you play, they boost the power of the player of how they intend to play.

To answer both you and bardarian.

They do change the way you play, you are aware that in Wildstar there are 3 end game gear sets, one for Raiders, One for PvPers and One for Solo players. A greater number of stats are required to add some cross functionality but yet let each gear set shine in their meta game and not interfere with the other meta game.
So you have to factor that in on top of the roles and on top of those roles there are hybrid roles and yes Tanks do serve a purpose in PvP and their abilities do have functionality before that point is made.

And therefor you can remove a few stats of those list cause when you're busy with gearing up for a part of the game they don't all factor in as they simply won't be there on your gear.


"But, but in game xyz it caused balance issues!" yes but that is the numbers game, that doesn't have to do with the amount of stats but how they are balanced out.


Or you can simply believe that there are many stats there just for the sake of being many stats. rational vs irrational thoughts, your choice.

[zito]

They do change the way you play, you are aware that in Wildstar there are 3 end game gear sets, one for Raiders, One for PvPers and One for Solo players.

They don't change the way you play they change your numbers. The action set and skill tiers will change the way you play. The stats will just boost your numbers for the way you play.

PvPers have their own gear so that point is moot and solo and raiding players don't need swap stats, they need to swap action set or roles, but thats beside my point...

There is an unnecessary amount of stats and provides nothing interesting to the game. Its just unnecessary calculations and imbalance. You play the game to play the game not to brush up on your math.

[Loaf Lord]

I've been somewhat out of the loop with this game for a while. I heard beta testers saying that the questing was bad and that Carbine admitted it was bad and decided to overhaul the questing. Is this true or am I going crazy?

[zito]

I've been somewhat out of the loop with this game for a while. I heard beta testers saying that the questing was bad and that Carbine admitted it was bad and decided to overhaul the questing. Is this true or am I going crazy?

It was not the questing in general it was how mob tagging was calculated. Now there is mob sharing.

[RoninaThorstone]

"But, but in game xyz it caused balance issues!" yes but that is the numbers game, that doesn't have to do with the amount of stats but how they are balanced out.


Or you can simply believe that there are many stats there just for the sake of being many stats. rational vs irrational thoughts, your choice.

There always has to be someone who takes the discussion THAT direction.

You are misrepresenting what I said, btw. My point is that it is harder to balance when you have many stats. So yeah, it does have to do with how they are balanced... It's harder when there's more. That's the point. But, if you want to continue to stawman me go right ahead.

Also, I think that there is potential in having so many stats that you have many builds and counter builds but that requires that each piece of gear only have one or two of the stat types in order to make meaningful choices. If each piece of gear has like, 3/4 offensive stats then that isn't a choice.

[Acidbaron]

They don't change the way you play they change your numbers. The action set and skill tiers will change the way you play. The stats will just boost your numbers for the way you play.

PvPers have their own gear so that point is moot and solo and raiding players don't need swap stats, they need to swap action set or roles, but thats beside my point...

There is an unnecessary amount of stats and provides nothing interesting to the game. Its just unnecessary calculations. You play the game to play the game not to brush up on your math.

It's useful that in times when questioned i have developers answers at hand. Solo and raid gear is not the same and swapping them out to be more optimal is something that will happen, however there is cross over functionality as with all sets. My point if it wasn't clear enough the first time around the amount of stats has to do with the game gear being balanced over 3 meta games, instead of 2 if you wish to compare it to WoW.


source

Our three progression paths are Solo/Small Group, Raiding, and PvP.

PvP has two stats necessary to be your most optimal in PvP (basically PvP Offense - deal more damage to players, and PvP Defense - take less damage from players) such that if you are playing against someone in non-PvP gear (say, they try to bring in raid gear), you are dealing more damage to them and taking less damage from them - while they take bonus damage from you and deal less damage to you.

Raiding also has stats necessary to be your most optimal in the raid. Strikethrough (Hit - DPS), Deflect Critical (Defense - Tank), and Recovery (Mana/Focus Regen - Healer). These are pretty-much-required to be an effective raider.

Solo/Small Group doesn't really need any stats other than the base stats to be effective. You'll need far less Strikethrough, Deflect Critical and Recovery than you would in raiding. This allows us to tune the solo gear to be more effective for soloing while lacking key stats necessary to raid.

So we can make three unique and separate progression paths for different types of players.
PvP Gear has PvP stats
Raid Gear has Raid stats
Solo Gear has Base stats

There will always been some overlap - (Crafted PvP gear, a really awesome world drop that has a ton of Hit on it, Raid gear still effective for soloing, etc.) - but it should mitigate a lot of the issues inherent with a Raiding/Soloing/PvPing MMO itemization plan (i.e. getting Solo gear that's better than Raid gear, getting Raid gear that's better then PvP gear, getting PvP gear that's better than Raid gear).

For the rest what you state is your opinion and preference, what is the opposite of mine.

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There always has to be someone who takes the discussion THAT direction.

You are misrepresenting what I said, btw. My point is that it is harder to balance when you have many stats. So yeah, it does have to do with how they are balanced... It's harder when there's more. That's the point. But, if you want to continue to stawman me go right ahead.

Also, I think that there is potential in having so many stats that you have many builds and counter builds but that requires that each piece of gear only have one or two of the stat types in order to make meaningful choices. If each piece of gear has like, 3/4 offensive stats then that isn't a choice.

You'll find out that a lot of stats regards to deflection, resistance and so forth will have more to do with raiding than PvP.

[zito]

Solo and raid gear is not the same and swapping them out to be more optimal is something that will happen

Read carefully, I did not say it was the same. I said they won't need to swap stats. Raiding will be the end game of end game you won't need to swap out for solo because if your gear is good enough for raiding it will be for solo. Optimal or not. It won't be required.

Solo/Small Group doesn't really need any stats other than the base stats to be effective.

They said it themselves. Solo doesn't need nothing besides the base to be effective. Making a gear set for raiding and solo would be unnecessary

My point if it wasn't clear enough the first time around the amount of stats has to do with the game gear being balanced over 3 meta games, instead of 2

You don't need more stats to do that though, because all of those stats are also for all "3" progressions. Its unnecessary . Which is my point which I stated twice now. They don't change the way you play they change your numbers.

if you wish to compare it to WoW.

Good thing I said nothing about WoW

[Razael]

zito, where can i get that sig xD?

[Acidbaron]

Read carefully, I did not say it was the same. I said they won't need to swap stats. Raiding will be the end game of end game you won't need to swap out for solo because if your gear is good enough for raiding it will be for solo. Optimal or not. It won't be required.



They said it themselves. Solo doesn't need nothing besides the base to be effective. Making a gear set for raiding and solo would be unnecessary



You don't need more stats to do that though, because all of those stats are also for all "3" progressions. Its unnecessary . Which is my point which I stated twice now. They don't change the way you play they change your numbers.



Good thing I said nothing about WoW

To answer to your post as a whole as i don't feel like going forth on the whole nitpicking multie quote format.

You stated players will not have to swap stats for solo and raiding, yet in the quotation i just gave you it is stated that although there's some cross over functionality a raider would need more of a different type of stat. So i don't see how i misread anything. Now you further clarify that by that you meant that raiders won't need to swap to another set of gear to do such content but it won't be optimal, where as first what you stated would be read as both from solo to raid gear and from raid to solo gear.


I'm sorry but they are not for all three progression paths, how can you say that if you just read the citation i provide for you? It clearly states there to be a difference, we may argue about the usefulness of using raid gear in a solo environment but it does clearly state there to be 3 sets and it doesn't state that all stats will serve a functionality in all 3 meta games, it actually does the opposite.


Where did i stat you said something about WoW? i said for comparison purposes to compare it to that game what is often used a reference point.


Besides that, like i said before you find your preference to be less stats, i find mine to be the opposite as it suits me better. Neither is more right or wrong in this it's a matter of preference. Everything can be balanced and Blizzard did not remove these stats out of balance reasons, if you believe they did i invite you to read up on the information regarding the removal of ArP, MP5 it was done to create a more simplified and clear cut view of things.

Even so as another correctly pointed out the proposed amount of stats is not greater that much greater than what WoW is today and before the WoD announcement i rarely noticed anyone question that the amount of stats are "too many", it's now after that announcement a lot of players are jumping on that train of thought, where as before it never really bothered them.

Perhaps the only other thing would be them re-introducing resistance stats what might hint at the need resistance gear again, but on the other hand the amount of defense stats in total are less, as we don't have parry, block and dodge. We have deflect and critical deflect.

[RoninaThorstone]

before the WoD announcement i rarely noticed anyone question that the amount of stats are "too many", it's now after that announcement a lot of players are jumping on that train of thought, where as before it never really bothered them.

Why would you? It is the developers problem, not the players.

[Remilia]

zito, where can i get that sig xD?

Probably just use the same image / link.

[RoninaThorstone]

You'll find out that a lot of stats regards to deflection, resistance and so forth will have more to do with raiding than PvP.

Crit/crit damage < critical deflect < armorpen < crit/crit damage

Also, I find this pretty funny because before I was just tossing out a random idea. But, if what you are saying is accurate then I am probably right.

If pvp gear will have a lot of "Hit", as in strikethrough, then it will have an advantage over tanking gear. However, this means that crit/crit damage will most likily be on pve gear for dps classes. If you played in vanilla WoW, you will remember that the PvP sets had enough hit to get you pvp capped and then a ton of HP. However, pve gear for DPS classes allowed them to deal a LOT more damage as the Ilv was more focused on things like crit. More damage to targets with a lot of health makes healers of the person being attacked have a bad day. Depending on the number of stats on end game gear and how much pvp power / defense changes your damage / survivability in pvp you could end up with vanilla pvp problems or some very strange scaling issues that will result in carbine having to adjust damage / healing / mitigation co-eff for specific abilities and perhaps even stats while "in pvp" which is pretty much impossible for world pvp.

[zito]

You stated players will not have to swap stats for solo and raiding, yet in the quotation i just gave you it is stated that although there's some cross over functionality a raider would need more of a different type of stat. So i don't see how i misread anything. Now you further clarify that by that you meant that raiders won't need to swap to another set of gear to do such content but it won't be optimal, where as first what you stated would be read as both from solo to raid gear and from raid to solo gear.

If you are a primary solo player then there is no reason for you to make a raid gear set since you won't raid. If you are a raiding player there is no reason to make a solo gear set because solo content is a level below raiding and just needs the bare minimum which raiding gear covers. As I already quoted from the quote you gave me:

Solo/Small Group doesn't really need any stats other than the base stats to be effective.

To remove carbines ridiculous sugar coating (which they alwasy seem to put every where) it basically means you just need more stats to raid. Most MMORPGs already do this. Rift, WoW, SWTOR, etc. Its called a gear treadmill. Carbine is just twisting their words to make it seem like a separate gear progression but its not.

I'm sorry but they are not for all three progression paths, how can you say that if you just read the citation i provide for you? It clearly states there to be a difference, we may argue about the usefulness of using raid gear in a solo environment but it does clearly state there to be 3 sets and it doesn't state that all stats will serve a functionality in all 3 meta games, it actually does the opposite.

Because it says that solo gearing needs to just the base minimum to be effective. Raiding needs more, so your raid gear will already cover the base minimum to be effective for solo (you don't switch out your raiding gear in Rift or WoW when you go and solo because its better and this is the same case) so if you are raiding you don't need to make a separate gear set for solo as raiding gear will be fine. Unless you want to go optimal which isn't needed it will be pointless to make 2 separate gear sets for solo and raiding. If you are a solo player it will be pointless to get a raiding set since you will not be raiding...

Its still 2 gear sets, one for PvE and one for PvP. Carbine is just using their sugar coating bull shit they always do.

Everything can be balanced

No it can not, more pointless stats added = more imbalance. That is a plain fact.

Everything can be balanced and Blizzard did not remove these stats out of balance reasons, if you believe they did i invite you to read up on the information regarding the removal of ArP, MP5 it was done to create a more simplified and clear cut view of things.

I never said anything about why blizzard removed those stats. Stop putting words in my mouth. But if you want to go there they are removing them because they are not interesting and don't effect gameplay and they are replacing them with stats that do. Like movement speed. Which will make combat more dynamic and change the way you play instead of just increasing your numbers.

Even so as another correctly pointed out the proposed amount of stats is not greater that much greater than what WoW is today and before the WoD announcement i rarely noticed anyone question that the amount of stats are "too many", it's now after that announcement a lot of players are jumping on that train of thought, where as before it never really bothered them.

Because players don't have to. Blizzard already knows this, they have been debating about it for years and do nothing to hide the fact. They tell us and its not even our problem its the developers.

And yes 19 stats is more then normal.

[1NF4M0UZ]

Solo/Small Group doesn't really need any stats other than the base stats to be effective.

To remove carbines ridiculous sugar coating (which they alwasy seem to put every where) it basically means you just need more stats to raid. Most MMORPGs already do this. Rift, WoW, SWTOR, etc. Its called a gear treadmill. Carbine is just twisting their words to make it seem like a separate gear progression but its not.

Lets take a imaginary trip to a imaginary world where imaginary things might happen;

Imagine you have a raid boss that has stat called "Deflect". The boss has 200 deflect, which will reduce your damage done by X amount, this X can be considerable portion of your DPS. On top of the "Deflect" stat the boss has 5% chance for your attacks to cause only Glancing Blows which do half damage on him.

Now you have a piece of raid gear with the following (dumbed down) itemization:

Name: Raid piece of Awesomeness
100 Strength
100 Stamina
100 Hit
100 Force

Strength increases your characters damage by a flat amount of X. Stamina increases your characters health by flat amount of X. 100 Hit reduces the bosses deflect rating to 100. 100 Force reduces the chance your hits will be glancing blows to 2,5%. Hit and force have been balanced so that they are above strength in importance.

Now lets imagine you have a dungeon boss:

Dungeon boss has no chance to deflect your attacks, nor have your blows change to be glancing ones.

Now lets check a dungeon piece out shall we:

Name: Dungeon item of awesomeness.
200 Strength
200 Stamina

You have exactly same amount of itemization points in your disposal but as the dungeon boss does not require any Hit nor Force rating, the itemization you have towards those stats on your Raid piece of awesomeness is wasted. Then again the sheer strenght and stamina of your Dungeon item of awesomeness is not quite enough for raiding as you lack the force and the hit stats. Sure you can do both of the content, with both of the gear to some extend, but it will not be anywhere near optimal and the harder bosses might even be impossible.


DISCLAIMER: This was a horribly dumbed down example of how gearing in a imaginary game could go. The differences would not be as harsh, and the gear and their stats would most likely be named better.

Because it says that solo gearing needs to just the base minimum to be effective.

J-Tal never said that. He said that solo / small group players do not need the other stats. That might not be any "base minimum". It might just as well be that the dungeon items have vastly higher amount of those base stats than raiding gear has, and none of the secondary stats that are a must in raiding content. In solo and dungeon content those secondary stats might be useless, making the primary stats the way to go.