[Moonkin] Guide :: 5.4 Edition

[Deleted]

As some people have hinted at in this thread recently, I am seeing Haste as the best secondary stat regardless of your current gear. i.e. below, at, above, significantly above the bp still show (the discrepancy obviously varies) a pretty constant haste > crit > mastery preference. And as long as the breakpoint isn't in play, Int appears to consistently be more than 2x as good as haste. Meaning we can gem the same way we were in Cataclysm. Haste also has hidden benefits that a spreadsheet cannot pick up (i.e. quicker casts = less likely to have to move for damage and interrupt that cast).

All in all, I think it is absolutely worth doing whatever you can to get to the 5270 bp (and it is completely possible in all blues), from there you can't really go wrong going for haste or crit, although haste appears to be better imo. My source is simply playing around with different gems/gear/reforges in Wrathcalcs while at work.

That's also what I have been consistently finding in the simulations (haste simulating better then crit right after the breakpoint for relevant gear levels). If WC also shows haste better than crit, I find it a bit puzzling that the current consensus favours crit after the haste breakpoint.

[Sunfyre]

I mean that seems to be a logical blanket statement, but it's not like Haste doesn't see the benefit from multiple targets to dot as well. More targets with dots rolling above the breakpoint = more dot damage. And when you say 4/6 I am not sure if you are counting Garajal (dotting targets in the spirit realm) or Elegon (dotting Celestial Protectors, Sparks, Pillars, adds). In either case the damage on the boss is far, far more important (although there might be something to said about getting a bunch of SS procs to use on Garajal from dots rolling in the spirit realm). For Spirit Kings it is absolutely essential to kill the boss that is sub 30% rather than worry about multi dotting the new boss that spawns. The enrage timer is no longer a factor so you really gain nothing from dotting the newly spawn added besides prolonging the time your raid has to deal with two bosses simultaneously (unless you can get enough SS procs from the extra dots to offset the waste globals, but it would have to be alot).

And again in all three of those fights (not sure which 2 you are counting) the ability to multi dot is not always there. Garajal only when you go down to the spirit realm, Spirit Kings only when the active boss is below 30%, Elegon really only when a Protector spawns, which only occurs when the boss' health is above 50%.

So in my opinion it's more like 2/6 (Stong Guard and Will) where you will have multiple targets to dot throughout the entirety of the fight, and it is beneficial to the raid to do so.

Spiritbinder is actually considered one of the single target fights, along with Feng.

---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 01:02 AM ----------

That's also what I have been consistently finding in the simulations (haste simulating better then crit right after the breakpoint for relevant gear levels). If WC also shows haste better than crit, I find it a bit puzzling that the current consensus favours crit after the haste breakpoint.

Most of the MV fights involve multiple adds, and that's where the crit really helps. I don't know if SimCraft is correctly modeling all of the benefits we get from it (Starsurge procs and DoT extensions).

---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 01:03 AM ----------

Start fight one cast pre-Lunar.
Starfall
Wrath once
Incarnation
Nature's Vigil (if you have it)
Sunfire, Moonfire
Starsurge
Starfall

Otherwise you lose a lot of seconds on the first starfall buff as the 2nd just overrides it.

Clarified you'll want to starfall when the previous ones fade. Also, as others have noted, jumping is no longer required (nor is moving) for lunar showers. Sometime I'm running around wondering WHERE DID MY LUNAR SHOWER GO?! because I forget that no longer maintains it. Thanks for the feedback.

[Stommped]

Spiritbinder is actually considered one of the single target fights, along with Feng.

Well then I guess that means you are counting Elegon and Spirit Kings. Elegon is purely a single target from 50% to 0, and above that you have only have the Celestial Protectors, which means you get about 5-7 "extra" rounds of dots for the entire fight. And I explained in my post why you really shouldn't be multi dotting on Spirit Kings. Although that was before the Vengeance stealth nerf last night, which brings the Enrage back into play.

I really don't think it matters whether you go for haste or crit after the bp, we are talking about minuscule differences in dps either way. A better player will do more damage than a worse player on all 6 fights in vaults using a haste build or a crit build.

It is probably worth revisiting once 4pc bonus comes into play and again when the next bp is accessible (will happen in this tier, but in pretty much full bis).

[huth]

So i did a short sim for Elemental Force, Windsong and Jade Spirit. Aside from the fact that i'm not entirely sure if SimC(505-3) really sims 'kins properly right now(it still assumes we can set down 5 shrooms for some reason), i was rather surprised to find that a) they are all really close together, with the weakest only 400 DPS below the strongest in iLvl 473 gear(less than 1% difference), and b) that Elemental Force is actually 200 DPS above Windsong.

Edith: Changed my gear up a little(+ ~2ilvl), reforged a tad more to haste. Oddly, this caused Elemental Force but not Windsong to migrate 50dps(that is, 25% of the prior difference, so quite a bit) closer to Jade Spirit. If this keeps up, by T15 EF might actually end up being our best enchant, or at least close to it.

Provided the numbers given by SimC are accurate, of course.

[iswat]

Thanks for you helpful guide i search about haste breaking point for like 2 week now i can understand

my idea about haste, i guess we have to work on our master instead of haste till we get t14 set because i tried this and it's really work

i suggest this for you try and give me a result

Regards

[Meleti]

Is my DPS fairly low? Just switched to Moonkin (from Resto) so I don't have a great grasp on how things are in Pandaland. Last played Moonkin way back at the start of Cata. An experienced eye would be much appreciated.

Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...um/damageDone/

At the moment best I can tell is that my DOT uptime is abnormally low on Gara'jal and Will. I also made a few mistakes with fight length and cooldown usage.

[Sunfyre]

Is my DPS fairly low? Just switched to Moonkin (from Resto) so I don't have a great grasp on how things are in Pandaland. Last played Moonkin way back at the start of Cata. An experienced eye would be much appreciated.

Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...um/damageDone/

At the moment best I can tell is that my DOT uptime is abnormally low on Gara'jal and Will. I also made a few mistakes with fight length and cooldown usage.

At Will, all you should be doing is DoTting and Starsurging on cooldown, so DoT uptime shouldn't be a problem as it's all you're doing, unless you're in gas phase or nuking a courage.

[Meleti]

My best guess is that on Will I was too focused on kiting/slowing Rages to keep my DoT uptime higher.

[Sunfyre]

My best guess is that on Will I was too focused on kiting/slowing Rages to keep my DoT uptime higher.

We had a lot of problems with rages until we quarantined all of the ranged to the middle circle -- after that, you should be able to just dot the rages, having like a frost DK on them with howling blast really helps -- if they do get too close to the caster pile, typhoon them then.

[Themessiah]

How much intellect is it worth dropping (in terms of gems) to make the haste break points? I have in mind here the 5.2k break point.

[Shotsi]

On Gara'jal heroic, I'm going in on all the spirit totems I can as we can clear the ads pretty quickly inside and also work as a healer. I have been using NV but wouldn't I be better off by going Dream of Cenarius? One heal when I enter and one heal when I leave, making the dots after leaving extremly good with the buff and also don't punish me as much when I'm inside.

---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 01:09 PM ----------

Also, how strong is the weapon enchant Jade Spirit? I haven't found much discussion about it but Windsong feels really strong as it procs pretty often.

[Sunfyre]

How much intellect is it worth dropping (in terms of gems) to make the haste break points? I have in mind here the 5.2k break point.

In all honesty, in most cases there's no gem color in which an intellect gem should be used -- for a red gem you should be using crit/expertise (or in this case if you're going for breakpoint, haste/expertise). The only time that intellect gems are better are the JC gems.

---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 03:57 PM ----------

On Gara'jal heroic, I'm going in on all the spirit totems I can as we can clear the ads pretty quickly inside and also work as a healer. I have been using NV but wouldn't I be better off by going Dream of Cenarius? One heal when I enter and one heal when I leave, making the dots after leaving extremly good with the buff and also don't punish me as much when I'm inside.

---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 01:09 PM ----------

Also, how strong is the weapon enchant Jade Spirit? I haven't found much discussion about it but Windsong feels really strong as it procs pretty often.

I actually like HotW for two reasons: It's going to give you an extra punch on ALL of your spells (and Gara'jal is a DPS race up top too), and HotW+Tranq is going to give your group down bottom an insane amount of stacks. All I do down bottom is throw DoTs, so only empowering two casts really isn't that great, imo.

As for Jade Spirit, I'll probably end up putting it on a normal/heroic weapon, but I'm not going to bother on a LFR weapon. Windsong is just too good.

[CaseyTheRetard]

In all honesty, in most cases there's no gem color in which an intellect gem should be used -- for a red gem you should be using crit/expertise (or in this case if you're going for breakpoint, haste/expertise). The only time that intellect gems are better are the JC gems.

This may be true for BiS gear, but for entry-level gear both WrathCalcs and Simulationcraft show Intellect as being about 3 times the value of secondary stats. Actually, maybe I'm missing something, but both tools show haste/crit/mastery less than half the value of intellect for your gear. Is there something about secondary stats that you think the current tools aren't modeling?

[benskicuz]

Questions// we are currently 6/6 and doing heroics now...im pushing around 150 atm times as balance and drop around 80-90k.. Im trying to see if im doing something wrong etc. Is this how regular balance dps goes? I feel that im doing something wrong.

[Sunfyre]

This may be true for BiS gear, but for entry-level gear both WrathCalcs and Simulationcraft show Intellect as being about 3 times the value of secondary stats. Actually, maybe I'm missing something, but both tools show haste/crit/mastery less than half the value of intellect for your gear. Is there something about secondary stats that you think the current tools aren't modeling?

WrathCalcs also shows Heart of the Wild/Soul of the Forest to be more DPS, and I can tell you without question that's absolutely false on just about every fight in Mogu'shan Vaults.

It also ranks Wrath at only 4% behind Starfire as my #2 damaging ability, and Starfall dead last, which again, doesn't line up with any single parse I've done. Wrath is usually 10-15% behind.

[CaseyTheRetard]

WrathCalcs also shows Heart of the Wild/Soul of the Forest to be more DPS, and I can tell you without question that's absolutely false on just about every fight in Mogu'shan Vaults.

It also ranks Wrath at only 4% behind Starfire as my #2 damaging ability, and Starfall dead last, which again, doesn't line up with any single parse I've done. Wrath is usually 10-15% behind.

I'll interpret this response as "I don't believe WrathCalcs to be a useful/valid modeling tool." Rephrasing the question: what's the basis for your claim that gemming secondary stats over Intellect is best?

[Sunfyre]

I'll interpret this response as "I don't believe WrathCalcs to be a useful/valid modeling tool." Rephrasing the question: what's the basis for your claim that gemming secondary stats over Intellect is best?

Because most fights for MV have multiple add targets. Will has a billion, Spiritbinder has a billion if you're downstairs, and I'm a core DPSer going down on spirits for heroic attempts. Stone Guard has multiple adds, Elegon too. With dots rolling on 3+ targets, I'm going to have a ton more shooting stars procs.

[land]

Because most fights for MV have multiple add targets. Will has a billion, Spiritbinder has a billion if you're downstairs, and I'm a core DPSer going down on spirits for heroic attempts. Stone Guard has multiple adds, Elegon too. With dots rolling on 3+ targets, I'm going to have a ton more shooting stars procs.

Even Feng now has adds on heroic... I'm trying crit my self, didn't do too bad this week.

[CaseyTheRetard]

Because most fights for MV have multiple add targets. Will has a billion, Spiritbinder has a billion if you're downstairs, and I'm a core DPSer going down on spirits for heroic attempts. Stone Guard has multiple adds, Elegon too. With dots rolling on 3+ targets, I'm going to have a ton more shooting stars procs.

So the idea is that the additional damage from upgrading Wrath/Starfire to Starsurge via Shooting Stars will outweigh the additional damage of everything hitting harder.

I imported your profile into Simulationcraft, setup a 4-target fight, and altered the actionlist to reflect this multidot approach:

actions=jade_serpent_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40|buff.celestial_alignment.up
actions+=/starfall,if=!buff.starfall.up
actions+=/treants,if=talent.force_of_nature.enabled
actions+=/use_item,name=jade_magistrate_figurine
actions+=/wild_mushroom_detonate,moving=0,if=buff.wild_mushroom.stack>0&buff.solar_eclipse.up
actions+=/natures_swiftness,if=talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&talent.natures_swiftness.enabled
actions+=/healing_touch,if=!buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled
actions+=/incarnation,if=talent.incarnation.enabled&(buff.lunar_eclipse.up|buff.solar_eclipse.up)
actions+=/celestial_alignment,if=((eclipse_dir=-1&eclipse<=0)|(eclipse_dir=1&eclipse>=0))&(buff.chosen_of_elune.up|!talent.incarnation.enabled)
actions+=/natures_vigil,if=((talent.incarnation.enabled&buff.chosen_of_elune.up)|(!talent.incarnation.enabled&buff.celestial_alignment.up))&talent.natures_vigil.enabled
actions+=/moonfire,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.up&(dot.moonfire.remains<(buff.natures_grace.remains-2+2*set_bonus.tier14_4pc_caster))
actions+=/sunfire,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.solar_eclipse.up&!buff.celestial_alignment.up&(dot.sunfire.remains<(buff.natures_grace.remains-2+2*set_bonus.tier14_4pc_caster))
actions+=/starsurge
actions+=/wrath,if=eclipse<=-70&eclipse_dir<=0
actions+=/starfire,if=eclipse>=60&eclipse_dir>=0
actions+=/moonfire,cycle_targets=1,if=!dot.moonfire.ticking&!buff.celestial_alignment.up&(buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up|!talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled)
actions+=/sunfire,cycle_targets=1,if=!dot.sunfire.ticking&!buff.celestial_alignment.up&(buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up|!talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled)
actions+=/starfire,if=buff.celestial_alignment.up&cast_time<buff.celestial_alignment.remains
actions+=/wrath,if=buff.celestial_alignment.up&cast_time<buff.celestial_alignment.remains
actions+=/starfire,if=eclipse_dir=1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse>0)
actions+=/wrath,if=eclipse_dir=-1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse<=0)
actions+=/moonfire,moving=1,if=!dot.sunfire.ticking
actions+=/sunfire,moving=1,if=!dot.moonfire.ticking
actions+=/wild_mushroom,moving=1,if=buff.wild_mushroom.stack<5
actions+=/starsurge,moving=1,if=buff.shooting_stars.react
actions+=/moonfire,moving=1,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.up
actions+=/sunfire,moving=1

basically adding cycle_targets=1 to the dot actions and raising Starsurge priority a bit. I got this result. I don't claim this is a perfect actionlist, but it seems reasonably representative: >75% of cast time spent on Sunfire, Moonfire and Starsurge. Scale factors are Haste > Crit > Mastery, all less than half of Intellect. Given that Shooting Stars has 37% uptime, it looks like you're getting into diminishing returns (i.e., if it's up 37% of the time then 37% of procs are lost).

[land]

From the guide: "A note regarding Starsurge: You will always want to cast Starsurge on cooldown and whenever it procs, exceptin Solar Eclipse, where you'll only want to cast one Starsurge until 5 Solar energy, where you may cast a second Starsurge. Casting a second one during the solar phase (pre 5-energy) will cause you to pre-maturely reach 0 energy."

I understand to not use Starsurge during solar (pre 5-energy) but is this also true to starsurge procs? Isn't that insta damage worthwhile versus a slow wrath that usually doesn't hit that much?