So this is why the portuguese minister of foreign affairs was out of the country for so long...
I think that you are not understanding something very important. Europe is not the same as the European Union. Trying to unite Europe would be like trying to unite America, the continent, not like trying to unite the various states that comprise the United States of America. What is more, except the differences in culture, language and customs, there is a centuries-old perception of national independency in most countries. This is not the New World, where things were fluid once upon a time. There are a lot of concepts that feel established. And have been for a long time.
I think that most europeans living in countries inside the European Union enjoy some of its aspects, like the freedom to travel without much hussle, the common currency, the various economical-developmet programs, etc. But most cherish their independency at the same time. So, any steps that are thought of to be taken in the matter, should be taken with that fine balance in consideration. If not, the whole construction is not going to last long. People throughout Europe are wary of being absorbed in single political entities, and rightfully so.
Personally I like the environment of common cooperation, the partial common societal concepts, and the sense of a european community, although I do not fool myself to think they exist for anything else other than to make high-value business easier. But, at the first sight of danger to my nation's independency I am all for leaving the European Union as fast as possible. I do not even trust my country's politicians to represent me and my wishes to the Parliament, much less some committee over which I will have a miniscule of influence on. I don't want my country to be run by people that don't answer to me and my countrymen for their actions.
Let's not be childishly stupid and pretend the level of difference is anywhere similar to the difference between EU countries.
The U.S. was also a gradual process of integration of foreigners largely conforming to the WASP majority over time. The initial stock of people were by and large from a similar country, with similar experiences, and all used to English society/law. Where the immigrants came from may have changed but the majority they all acculturated to stayed the same. And even then it wasn't without some intense issues including multiple threats of succession, actually succession, and tons of state sanctioned violence against minorities(go go Native American treatment!).
Yes America has regional and cultural differences. But when I move from Nevada to Maine I have to adjust to a change in weather and accent and maybe a few differences in the legal system. Not so if I moved the same distance in Europe.
edit- The above posters comparison to uniting Europe like uniting all of the Americas is excellent. The U.S.A is not remotely the same.
Last edited by shimerra; 2012-10-02 at 03:19 AM.
“Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
"Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
Ambrose Bierce
The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.
Well they've not completely written it off, reinforcing Gotland has been up for discussion several times, it's really the only strategically important place in Sweden for the Russians, beef up that island with some coastal land-to-sea robots(mobile robot 17), anti-air and half a batallion of mech inf and it would be all good, it would simply cost them too much to take the island.
If the russians came over the baltic sea tomorrow they wouldn't have too much trouble, if they made it past the Airforce, they can deploy 4 Ropucha ships with 2400 marines, 40 tanks and 48 other armoured vehicles in hours and there is nothing we got on Gotland currently that could stop that.
If they put their whole baltic force in motion it would take time for them to mobilize but that would really stink for all of us.
They got the 76th airborn division, 6000 - 8000 men, including Spetsnaz units in Pskov south of St Petersburg
The 79th mech brigade. 4500 men, 41 MBTs + loads of different artillery and other armoured vehicles in Kaliningrad
336th. Marine brigade, 2 mech batallions with 2x36 T-90s + 4 batallions marines in Baltijsk, Kaliningrad.
9 big amphibious warfare ships to ship it all over with + S-400 anti-air batteries that cover most of the baltic area, also located in Kaliningrad. And thats just some of it, the stuff at the top of my mind.
The only advantage is that they only got around 50 fighter jets in the region. We got 72 on the baltic coast.
There is very little anyone can do if they would choose to attack Estonia for example, including NATO unless they want to start an all out war.
Last edited by Jackmoves; 2012-10-02 at 03:33 AM.
The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...
I think a common EU army is good. Less spending by each state for their own army, a better equipped army but smaller (since now some countries have armies of 100k men with shit tech for 10 million people, way too much) means less spending for all but a better trained and equipped army.
That said, the country views would work like in a parliament with different parties. Germany votes no, France and UK vote yes, so majority wins.
---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 11:38 AM ----------
Agreed with this, only with a catch, if UK leaves I don't want them to be a partner, and many countries won't either for they'll feel betrayed in a way.
And then UK people, you'll see how much the cost of goods can rise from export when there's taxes, you'll see how much you need to wait at the border control when entering Europe in plus from normal etc.
You think getting out of UK would be good for you? Haha, why do you think Greece isn't leaving for example then, I mean some of their major problems come from the EU. Because leaving EU, especially in the time we're in, would be economical suicide.
That said, I've got enough of the UK bullshit, after the fact you pay one a small contribution and don't even apply many EU regulations and laws and we look the other way, it's still you being high and mighty and thinking you're better then everyone. Romania pays like 10% of our money to the EU and because of crap ministers we get less then that, and did you ever hear us complain? No? We only complained about our ministers. Because we understand fighting for the good of all, not for the good of a select few. We understand that all on this planet are equal and we all should get equal choices, and especially when you are part of a over-country structure like the EU, you need to give everyone inside an equal life standard.
Ah yes, the good old "if you are not with us, you are against us" Europhile talk.
As for Romania, try to stick to facts please, ever since it has joined, Romania has been a net benefactor of EU, a quick google search found some older data: .
I am amazed why so many people think they can lie on the internet and get away with it. FYI your contribution is 1,24% of your GDP...
I've also seen lots of regions of countries wanting to split up, and many have also done so over the centuries.
But I agree that a united Europe is a good thing. It's inevitable if we want to be a global player and not be trampled by the US, China or whoever.
The only thing that scares people is losing their culture and identity. What if the person in charge of the EU doesn't have my interests at heart? What if cultures like the German or British one will completely usurp others? That's what's scaring people.
If done right, it's the greatest thing to happen to Europe. If done poorly, well... let's just say there will be riots. Maybe even wars.
No thanks, keep your EU Army. I for one want to see a union of the Anglo countries, Thats the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. It would be a force to be reckoned with, as well as one heck of a party.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
I got no other comment than in the future we will probably have:
The people in the state with the army and with the currency.
Actually that's the very recipe for wars. Look at what happened to Yugoslavia. Personally I don't think there's any reason to try and copy the US model, Europe is just a completely different case in all kinds of aspects. What should be done, however, is make sure everyone in Europe has a common second language. Just pick one (practicalities imply English, but whatever works) and teach it to every kid starting from 1st grade.
haha i was going to say something about this. Germanys history since 1871 is stay out of the spotlight until they're strong enough to push the rest of the countries around. failed twice but yeah.
Anyways the amount of nationalism is actually astounding in this thread. Though i can see why we were bred on it a long time ago and whether our parents meant for it or not it usually gets picked up by us.
Personally it seems stupid from my point of view( i live in the U.S) there's no way in hell Europe as a whole would every united under 1 banned. Europeans have been fighting themselves forever over sovereignty and now they'll just give it away? >.>
The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...
Why should they even be in the EU? I think it's insulting. The UK is too great to lose its sovereignty and rich history to some bureaucratic nightmare. They can still trade and fuel their economy without it. Not everyone likes centralized power. If a Euro-army was made they would have to carry most of the weight anyways. It's not like most European nations have that much to contribute.
I can see it now! France, Germany, and Britain....and Friends! Perhaps the reason they prefer us over the EU is be ause we actually like them and respect their sovereignty, even if they still have that decrepit old lady on the throne.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.