Mistweaver monk healing problem

[Deleted]

Hi guys,

I've never played mistweaver monk in pvp enviroment, so I decided to give it a try. Last three days I spent by gearing it, and once I was full honor gear I decided to try arena with my friend. Not going for rating obviously, just practicing heal, memorizing all macros and binds, understanding how the class works.

We were doing ok, but sometimes (in fact quite often) I found myself having big problems with high sustained damage comps. I really have no idea how am I supposed to overheal crazy burst that's on my team mate. I usualy end up soothing mists -> surging mist on gcd and whenever I'm on 3 chi i pop enveloping. (assuming renewing mist hot is on). But I still can't get my friend more than 30% of hp when he's under high sustained damage. I found renewing mist and enveloping mist alone is not enough to overheal high damage, and with hardcasting surging i'm out of mana quickly (and usually don't even have the time to drink mana tea because my team mate would die.)

So, as a mistweaver monk, what am I supposed to do to heal high sustained damage? Let's say, there is a hunter and enha shaman bursting my target, and I'm getting scatter trapped every time I peek out to heal. Or a affliction lock with warrior.

I would also say that I'm not a stranger to pvp healing. I have a paladin, a priest and a shaman full 550 gear ad I start to have healing problems around 60% of dampening debuff, and I also can overheal huge damage with mostly no problem. (I'm not a high rated player, I play around 1.8-1.9k)

I just really have no idea what to do on my monk. I also think revival is not a solution since is long cd. As I said, I'm not going for rating, but I'm doing my best to understand the class. Or, could it be the gear?

My monk's armory:http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Lemu/advanced
My team mate's armory:http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...breed/advanced


Thank you!

[Nzete]

I would imagine the solution is spamming healing sphere under your teammate's feet. This is being removed from the game in 6.0 because of pvp. Therefore, it must be used in pvp in ways that they don't want as solutions to the healing problems.

[Deleted]

1.You NEVER surging mist unless:
a) you have thunder focus tea;
b) for some reason, you can't land healing spheres on your teammate
2.In burst situations: para shaman, disarm hunter, then spam orbs on your teammate. You want to Keep EM up, but eventually you'll need to orb, is our bread and butter heal. Also, remember that xuen helps you healing as well.
3. You should prioritize crit over spirit. More crit = more mana tea = more mana. You should be casting EM as much as possible, but when the situation calls (your teammate drops below 70%) you need to orb, there's no way around it.

It's not you, it's the spec that is currently broken, and apart from healing spheres, extremely weak (thus so few people play it). In WoD it will get better, but until then, healing sphere all the way and be extra careful at incoming cc

[Wheetos]

when using surging mists in soothing, you can thunder focus tea as well for a big heal. try and hold back with your cocoon until you really cant heal the damage. ring of peace and disarm can do well to limit dmg too. dks barely take any damage really if they are attacking him just make sure hes in blood pres. could be a gear issue.

[Deleted]

Thank you so much!

However, I just had an arena against another mw monk and a warrior (=my team mw monk/fdk vs mw monk/warr). The other monk had absolutelly no problem holding his team mate at 90%, or just when he dropped low he topped him in no time. I couldn't hold my friend's hp at all, he had 40% whole game, and in the end just 15% for like 2 minutes. We were playing 'till 45% of dampening.

I just can't stop thinking I'm doing something horribly wrong.

This is my healing for the whole match:



and this is the other monk's:



How the hell he can have so much from chi wave? I'm using it mostly on cooldown.

Me and the monk both had the same talents, except I was running with leg sweep and he with ox wave, and he also had chi torpedo instead of xuen.

[Deleted]

1.Is your dk playing in blood presence? If not, you have your answer. If it isn't that, it might simply be that you're dk is worse geared, which requires more healing.
2. Your healing metters make more sense than the other monk:
a) he uses uplift (??)
b) he has an extremely high percentage of healing on surging mist: like I said, healing spheres should represent more healing ALL the fights;
c) you have EM as top heal that's what you're trying to go for. Still, you're not meant to keep people alive by EM, so maybe you didn't orb enough?

How the hell he can have so much from chi wave? I'm using it mostly on cooldown.

Isn't it obvious :P? His partner required less healing than your dk, meaning he benefited more from chi wave/renewing mist, as opposed to you that seemed to be spamming the dk the whole time, just compare the amount of healing done lol.
Trust me on this one: you're healing better than he is (well, you could always have a higher percentage on healing spheres instead of surging mist, but that's okay if you're ooming yourself), but due external factors (his partner compared to yours), you're required to do way more direct healing.

[Deleted]

This is my healing for the whole match:

You rarely used healing spheres, they are usually in my top 3 heals (at least in 3s). But if you've got problems topping your team mate off, but got SooM / EM sitting on top of your healing charts... it seems to be a gear or "how do I play arena" issue.
In 2s, SooM / EM should be enough to top someone off if you're allowed to cast it freely. Use healing spheres to get those last HP % back. If it's not enough / you're running out of mana too quickly, review your playstyle:

1) Is your DK in blood presence? (he should play UH btw, you won't kill ANYTHING with FDK... zero pressure)
2) Disarm the warrior (e. g. on recklessness).
3) Utilize Transcendence, Leg Sweep and Paralysis to start off or extend some sweet CC chains on the enemy healer (or one of the DPS if you are playing against double DPS comps)
4) For a 45% dampening match, the numbers are quite low (e.: thinking about it, it's 2s, so dunno). Were you sitting in CC a lot? Chi Wave should be higher when spammed on CD (on your DK), even when in honor gear. Did you use Xuen on CD (and watch your statue positioning)? Even life cocoon numbers are low for a 45% match, but I'm not 100% sure.
5) Reforge crit over spirit. And if you reforge spirit (you should do that, just not number one priority): use it! You can sustain your mana very well with chi brew and EM, the spirit's there for spamming spheres.

and this is the other monk's:

This sucks on way too many levels
Detox glyph against FDK, SM spam, ReM #1 heal, Uplift with nearly 1m, Chi Torpedo... just no. Might have been outgeared? Dunno.
You should also compare the damage numbers (so the damage you and he had to heal)... you're FDK got no pressure on the field at all.

Me and the monk both had the same talents, except I was running with leg sweep and he with ox wave, and he also had chi torpedo instead of xuen.

Are you sure? Detox on the healing meter suggests he was running the glyph.

Regarding you Hunter / Enhancer scenario: you're very unlikely to die against that. Utilize your CC to counter the burst (e.g. leg sweep, disarm or para Ascendence), place spheres like there's no tomorrow and stay out of their LoS. As long as you stay safe and don't eat those hexes / scatter traps, you should be safe to outheal the burst with some CDs and a little bit of CC. Play defensive if necessary (your partner shouldn't YOLO out in the open if you can't sustain that).

Feel free to ask any further questions.


Lisk

[Deleted]

Thank you very much, you helped me a lot!

Yes, I guess I should use healing spheres more often. To this time, i used it only when enemy dps were chasing me and I had no thunder focus tea and I couldn't afford to get interrupted.

To the point no. 4) - yes, I go cc'd quite often, but it wasn't nothing too heavy. I got ox wave on cd (I rolled out of it's way everytime, but always hit me.), paralyzed as well (he also disarmed me on cd and I really have no idea why though). Warrior storm bolted me and they both tried to interrupt me almost on cd, however they did not succeed. I guess it wasn't too bad, although I had quite troubles to place my ccs on it's very cooldown, because my team mate had 40% of hp the whole game and last few minutes just about 15% (that's why the numbers may seem low - I couldn't heal him up and the warrior didn't require much healing.) From their HP pool I could tell they were both full 550.

Anyway, we did some arena again this afternoon, I managed to place spheres and did as you told me, and we were doing really better. Although I found when mw monk it's cc chained it hurts him way more then for example paladin or priest. I hadn't played 2s on my pala/priest/sham for quite some time since they're all 550, but when I get locked away in cc chain I'll just holy shock, eternal flame, FoL and everyone is topped. With monk I still have the idea of it's hots being somehow not really good, maybe even weak. But again, it could be the gear as well.

We are losing against teams with better cc - as a mw monk and dk we have para, leg sweep, and dk stun. Once we get for example hpriest and a hunter we are quite screwed if we don't outgear them. (aka scatter, freez trap, glyphed explosive trap to LoS me when I'm still in freezing, stun, silence, pet sleep, fear, chastise, mc and when mc ends or my teammate manage sto interrupt (he's always rooted by hunter at this point) the scatter trap is up and it goes all over again). Not casting and just placing spheres helped me a lot, but still we have 3 ccs and they have 8 including the root, so we get out-cc'd heavily.

Maybe it's just a silly question or me being used to play mostly only threes and heavy cc comps, but how are we supposed to win against this type of cc heavy comps?

In the end I can imagine my mw monk having bigger potentional as a healer in threes than my paladin or my priest.


Thank you

[Deleted]

I had quite troubles to place my ccs on it's very cooldown, because my team mate had 40% of hp the whole game and last few minutes just about 15% (that's why the numbers may seem low - I couldn't heal him up and the warrior didn't require much healing.)

If you don't plan to go for the kill in the next minute, you can Ox Wave / Leg Sweep / RoP or even Paralysis the enemy DPS to catch up on healing.

Although I found when mw monk it's cc chained it hurts him way more then for example paladin or priest. I hadn't played 2s on my pala/priest/sham for quite some time since they're all 550, but when I get locked away in cc chain I'll just holy shock, eternal flame, FoL and everyone is topped. With monk I still have the idea of it's hots being somehow not really good, maybe even weak. But again, it could be the gear as well.

Use your spheres (and / or TFT => SM) to top someone really quickly.
You've got several ways to heal out of CC - MW is one of the weakest healers in this area, though, that's why they're not really a top tier healer.
1) Keep ReM rolling.
2) Try to get EM on your DPS before you get chained. Be aware that both EM and ReM can be dispelled without any real penalty, so don't rely on it too much.
3) If you've got Xuen out, the Eminence heal is noticable and you should be able to sit the CC chain.
4) Place some spheres in advance. Your partner can pacman through them (as well as your mastery spheres) if he need some heals. This is really useful versus rogue openers: get ReM rolling, place spheres (with trinket proc if possible) and you should be able to sit the sap.

All of these are things you can do if you land in a cc chain. But...

We are losing against teams with better cc - as a mw monk and dk we have para, leg sweep, and dk stun. Once we get for example hpriest and a hunter we are quite screwed if we don't outgear them. (aka scatter, freez trap, glyphed explosive trap to LoS me when I'm still in freezing, stun, silence, pet sleep, fear, chastise, mc and when mc ends or my teammate manage sto interrupt (he's always rooted by hunter at this point) the scatter trap is up and it goes all over again). Not casting and just placing spheres helped me a lot, but still we have 3 ccs and they have 8 including the root, so we get out-cc'd heavily.

... it's even more important to not get hit by the CC or at least not get chained. Often times, that's really hard or even impossible to do. The priest in your example got feathers + guise + chastice to get real safe fears. Things you can do, though:

1) Keep your range. If enemies have to run towards you to scatter / fist of justice / clone / ..., you've got time to react and get out of LoS asap.
2) Keep track of enemy CDs. If the hunter on the enemy team has used scatter, you're already a lot safer (be aware of other combinations, though, like stormbolt into trap. Sleep into trap is also possible, but that DR's at least).
3) Utilize your disarm. If you disarm right as the scatter is incoming (easier to notice when you're keeping your distance), he can't use the trap launcher.
4) Utilize your Paralysis defensively. Use it to stop sheep, MC or clone casts, an incoming priest (hard because chastice), this scattering hunter, ...
5) Use Transcendence. It's really got to push in if you've got to and get out of LoS again asap.
6) Communicate with your team mate. He can asphyxiate the hunter before he can launch the trap... or the priest before he can follow up fear. Or silence him during MC.
7) If this fails, keep closer to your DK. If you get scattered, he can soak the trap by walking into it (dispel afterwards). Be aware of your positioning or you'll get double feared.
8) If the enemy priest is using psy fiend instead of MC, use your kick or Paralysis to stop his fears.
9) Use both dispels and TL to keep your DK on the target.

Some of those tip are comp specific against Hunter / Priest, but most are pretty much usable against all comps. One of the hardest thing to know - especially in 3s - is when to go aggressive and when to stay defensive.

In the end I can imagine my mw monk having bigger potentional as a healer in threes than my paladin or my priest.

Kinda comp specific. MW's weakness to sitting in CC chains without any real tools to keep your team mates up during those is even more visible in 3s. This can be partially covered by shamans on your team (grounding / shear / tremor). In 2s, MW / DK is a decent comp capable of reaching high ratings. As long as both you and your DK are willing to learn and improve, you've got great things to come (;


Lisk


PS: Glyph of Icy Touch on your DK might help you against some comps as you lack an offensive dispel.

[Deleted]

Thank you so much for your long answer!

I did some more arenas with my dk team mate, however all of them (speaking of healer/dps comps) were at least 11-19 minutes long. I don't know if it's my fault or not, but somehow we are not able to score a kill, even though I'm holding my team mate quite well 'till 50%+ of dampening, and with your advices I don't have any more trouble to overheal high burst damage. (I felt really bad after losing a 18min match to hunter/hpriest comp, even though the hunter was really bad - he backpedaled a lot, not strafing at all -I assume he was a clicker, no scatter traps also (he had very good healer though)), even though I was playing as offensively as I could. Could it be my team mate's problem?
I asked him to try unholy a few times, but he strictly said he won't, that pet managing is too hard, he's not gonna learn whole new spec and he's been playing frost since cata. I feel bad about pushing him, but I'm sure we would win more games if we had the extra cc unholy can provide and more damage. He also tried the icy touch glyph, but in the end he told me "it's stupid" because thanks to this he's rune starved. Anyway I decided to try arena with someone else today (any good ideas for working 2v2 comp with mw? ^^)

This is my healing done from today's arena, I hope it's more like something I'm meant to do as a mw monk. I can't really remember what comp it was, although I can recall I couldn't cast a lot.



Thank you

[Hand Banana]

I can't speak for monks but your dk needs to go unholy. Unholy's pressure is incredible and it allows you to be more offensive since he can sit in blood pres against other melee. Theres hardly any pet management in unholy, if hes really complaining about that he isn't doing something right. Converting death runes optimally is more difficult imo. With tigers lust and a cc-offensive MW monk in 2s, my UH dk can land a kill against pretty much any healer team under 2k before dampening. Frost has pretty much no place in pvp right now outside gimmicky comps like enh/frost/heals in 3s, so he should learn unholy. Its pretty much always the superior pvp spec.

[Deleted]

The other monk was running oxwave, torpedo and detox glyph ?
Keeping that in mind while looking at his healing chart makes it fairly easy to conclude
the other monk played his class wrong in every way.

Regarding your healing, just use spheres and chi wave alot more and surging less.
Besides that the problems you have will be caused mainly by gear and by your partner.
The fact that he's playing frost is a big warning sign.

- - - Updated - - -

I asked him to try unholy a few times, but he strictly said he won't, that pet managing is too hard, he's not gonna learn whole new spec and he's been playing frost since cata. I feel bad about pushing him, but I'm sure we would win more games if we had the extra cc unholy can provide and more damage. He also tried the icy touch glyph, but in the end he told me "it's stupid" because thanks to this he's rune starved. Anyway I decided to try arena with someone else today (any good ideas for working 2v2 comp with mw? ^^)

Just read your latest post.
Gj on your changes, it looks good.

You are obviously trying to learn and improve, your partner is not only horrible
but also not willing to adapt and improve, you have to replace him.

[Deleted]

Last log looks really good.

Regarding your arena partner: you probably have to decide between gaining rating / winning more and playing with people you know (and like?). Frost ist just very sub-par in PvP, especially when paired with a healer as he lacks both pressure and real burst to score a kill. But it's totally okay to play just for fun, go ahead. You may also play with different people throughout the week b:

Regarding different classes to pair with a mage:

DK: UH / MW is one of the best 2s comps, you keep him on target with dispels and TL. You've got a huge healing output, he's got a huge damage output. DR on Legsweep / Ox Wave and Asphyxiate or RoP and Strangulate, but nothing too major.
Warrior: Arms / MW is pretty good as well. Fear into Paralysis is always pretty decent. Lacking the huge DK damage, but the output's still good. May be good when struggling against hunter teams (intervening the trap) or even caster teams when compared to DK.
Retri: Never tried that. Retri suffers from similar problems as DK, though, and the offheal is kinda wasted.
Enhancement: Shock, Shear and Tremor to stop some CC. Huge burst. No real sustained damage after that. Better paired with a DPS imo. Hex and Para DR, Capacitor and Leg Sweep as well. Good look setting up any real CC chains.
Feral: Never tried that. There aren't that many ferals playing right now
Rogue Rogue is more of a setup DPS. There's also a lot of DR going on, wouldn't recommend.
Windwalker There are worse comps out there, to be honest. Will work because WW is kinda retarded in 2s. No real CC chains, but everything else is there. A WW would be far better off with a Priest or something similar, though.
Ele: Ele's got no real place in 2s. Utility is nice, but the pressure while he's getting tunneled is pretty low.
Lock: Never tried. Should work, but good luck trying to score a kill in the first 15 minutes. :B
Mage: Not a terrible comp, but not too good either. Mage's burst can give him solo kills, but the setup with MW's just awful. Your Paralysis DRs his sheep, your leg sweep his deep. Deep on kill target, Sheep => Leg Sweep => Paralysis on other one is your best options. Paralysis is also decent to stop the enemy DPS training your Mage.
Shadow: Dislike it. Not enough damage when their DPS sits on him. Burst can be interrupted and out healed. Possible CC chains are nice, though.
Boomie: Play Boomie with a DPS, Heart of the Wild is free rating.
Hunter: Kinda works, Priest would be a better option, though.

In general, I feel that you can make most comps work. A lot of them would be a lot better with an other healer (or DPS), though. MW / UH is probably the best comp out there, followed by MW / Arms. Don't really like any of the other comps, but I play them anyway - playing for rating or playing with friends, yadda yadda.


Lisk

[Deleted]

Thank you so much for your answers.

I managed to talk my friend into trying out unholy. (Actually I just showed him the topic ) And we were doing singnificatly better. He's still a bit sloppy with the new spec, but we were doing 6 arenas just now and we've won them all (could have been coincidence, but I could see the damage is really better, especially them necro strikes seem very powerful in unholy spec).

There is one more thing that's been bugging me. Yesterday I talked to quite high rated mw monk (he's 2.4k) and he told me I should use something called HSphere buddy. He claims that every high(er) rated monk uses that. I did some research and it appears to be some kind of bot. I never used bot and never even thought about it, but he says it makes life so much easier...well I'm not really sure about that and I don't wana get banned. Any thoughts on that?

Thank you

[Deleted]

Thank you so much for your answers.

There is one more thing that's been bugging me. Yesterday I talked to quite high rated mw monk (he's 2.4k) and he told me I should use something called HSphere buddy. He claims that every high(er) rated monk uses that. I did some research and it appears to be some kind of bot. I never used bot and never even thought about it, but he says it makes life so much easier...well I'm not really sure about that and I don't wana get banned. Any thoughts on that?

It's indeed a bot and against Blizzard rules. The reason why so many mistweavers use it is because healing spheres is by far the best heals we monks possess, and the bot helps you landing them right under the person's feet. Honestly, while the mechanic is hard and the class is not balanced (because surging mist costs so much mana), those players are still effectively cheating. So you shouldn't do it

[Tyrean]

Don't use the bot, it will only be useful for a short period of time as spheres go away with 6.0 and it will run the chance of getting you banned.

I can't help you with MW stuff, but I can help your DK friend. First of all, frost is by far the worst spec for twos. He can't really put any self healing out, if he plays in blood (which is pretty much required) then he puts out no damage. If he does put out damage it is never enough to finish someone because of the way runes work as frost. He will be doing almost no damage a lot of the time because frost is reliant on uptime and frost has almost zero uptime in arena.

Unholy is superior in so many ways, especially for 2v2. He can sit in blood the whole game for almost no loss of damage. Just tell him to not bother switching out until he gets more comfortable. He can do a lot of damage even while hiding behind pillar. He has decent healing with conversion. He has a very good finish ability in the form of necro stack and soul reaper. He has more control as he can have two stuns (pet and asphyx) and I would recommend he also do a macro for the pet interrupt and just treat it as a separate skill. He can spam purge people, he can play defensive while you are in CC, etc. It is just so much better. On top of all that it is mindlessly easy to play. Just keep diseases up on everything, run runetap and macro it to necro, get your runes converted to death and stack a giant necro on them. Coupled with your high amount of CC for a healer and his mild CC you can really screw over a target. Remember that necro is not affected by defensive CDs, so you put a healer in back facing para and then pop CDs on the dps, by the time the healer comes out of the para he either eats an asphyx, or a leg sweep and the DK is stacking a huge necro. Then the healer is forced to cast a heal which either gets double interrupted by death grip or interrupted by ghoul charge, or you just interrupt them. It is really hard to play against a decent DK in 2v2.

Against hunter/priest teams you will most likely win as the DK can put out a lot of pressure on the hunter. The biggest thing there is you have to tell your DK to not chase people behind pillars. If he is getting out of control tell him to back off because when he pushes up it pushes you out in the open and that is what beats DK/MW teams. Just tell him to hang back and it will go better.

[Deleted]

Thank you soo much for your answers. You guys really helped me (and my dk partner) a lot!

I went yesterday evening some twos with some random oque guy (warrior) and we were doing great! We had about 10 wins and 2 losses - we banged twice into the same team (frost mage, resto druid) and we were out-cc'd heavily.

So thank you again ^^♥

[pkm]

Thank you soo much for your answers. You guys really helped me (and my dk partner) a lot!

I went yesterday evening some twos with some random oque guy (warrior) and we were doing great! We had about 10 wins and 2 losses - we banged twice into the same team (frost mage, resto druid) and we were out-cc'd heavily.

So thank you again ^^♥

Yeah like everyone said stay away from that bot. Not only is it against the rules its also bad habit. While healing sphere is going away in 6.0 there is still things like feathers used by priests which need to be set down under the feet manually and hunter doing the scatter trap. You want to be able to aim things accurately, even if its not an FPS game.

I really recommend investing in a gaming mouse if you don't have one. Can make using healing spheres much more fluid, and general game-play more smooth.

Also a tip to your UH DK buddy, necrotic strike scales off strength, so have him use an addon to track the proc trinket, or bind the on-use trinket while having death runes ready for the kill.

[Merlunie]

Trust me... Just spam sphere under your teammates feet.