Question about itemization in Wod

[Deleted]

So I've let myself understand that certain items change their stats depending on your spec. Does this apply to all items or just some set items? As in if I farm a full pvp set on my druid, can I switch from resto to balance any time and the gear chances accordingly, or do I need to farm trinkets and other offset items in addition to resto items?

[Imnick]

Items with an armour type (like Cloth, Leather, Mail, Plate) will swap primary stats as you change set.
Items which don't (Rings, Trinkets, Necklaces, etc) will not.

[Deleted]

That's what I was afraid of. I was being really hopeful about this since I thought it would bring hybrids to the same table as pure classes. I guess it's another well meaning, but half assed change that won't reach it's intended purpose. Guess I still won't be leveling my druid as my main then :-/

[Zka]

Applies to all items with an armor type. Enchants are only available for non-armor pieces. Makes offspec gearing so much easier - you just have to swap out your non-armor pieces. Sometimes even those can stay, for example prot warrior tank uses the same stats as prot gladiator DPS and you can get away without moving a single slot when changing role. Of course this may change depending on what kind of gear is available to you and how much you want to min-max.

[Deleted]

That's what I was afraid of. I was being really hopeful about this since I thought it would bring hybrids to the same table as pure classes. I guess it's another well meaning, but half assed change that won't reach it's intended purpose. Guess I still won't be leveling my druid as my main then :-/

The modern gamer folks. Will never appreciate what he gets, be cause there is always something he does not get. Why are you not happy about 50% of your gear change with your spec? Before you were happy with 0%, now you are mad about 50% not being 100%? And instead of accepting the valid reasons given, you go on and call the entire feature half-assed...

[Imnick]

I'm not sure why you think hybrids aren't "at the same table" already, they do as much damage as any DPS class and nobody in our raids is ever forced to change spec regardless of what class they play.
You've never needed to carry offspec gear, this makes it easier for people who want to.

Compressing things like rings would be ludicrous. Think about it for a second.
We'd have an item with mastery/haste and it would be desirable to literally everyone in your raid.
How would trinkets change dynamically to match your spec?

[Deleted]

I'm not sure why you think hybrids aren't "at the same table" already, they do as much damage as any DPS class and nobody in our raids is ever forced to change spec regardless of what class they play.
You've never needed to carry offspec gear, this makes it easier for people who want to.

Compressing things like rings would be ludicrous. Think about it for a second.
We'd have an item with mastery/haste and it would be desirable to literally everyone in your raid.
How would trinkets change dynamically to match your spec?

I don't raid. That's not what I'm thinking about here. I'm thinking about Pvp. Hybrids aren't on the same table, it's not about how much damage classes do, it's about itemization. If I gear my druid up for resto, I need to farm a full set of gear if I want to play balance or feral. In wod I was hoping this would change, but it's not going to apparently. You still need to get enough conquest for double trinket sets and other off set items. It's not the same for Death knights, rogues, mages and other pure classes. They can can just switch specs and voila.

The modern gamer folks. Will never appreciate what he gets, be cause there is always something he does not get. Why are you not happy about 50% of your gear change with your spec? Before you were happy with 0%, now you are mad about 50% not being 100%? And instead of accepting the valid reasons given, you go on and call the entire feature half-assed...

I'm 31 years old and played games since 1992, but whatever. I wasn't happy with the way itemization worked for hybrids before and by the looks of it I won't be happy in Wod either. It's a half asses feature since it doesn't accomplish what it's supposedly trying to achieve. That's why I still won't be making my druid my main and play a pure class in Wod too.

[Deleted]

The modern gamer folks. Will never appreciate what he gets, be cause there is always something he does not get. Why are you not happy about 50% of your gear change with your spec? Before you were happy with 0%, now you are mad about 50% not being 100%? And instead of accepting the valid reasons given, you go on and call the entire feature half-assed...

Doesn't have anything to do with "modern gamer folks" Mr. Joined-MMOC-2014, but with the inconsistency of the system. We are okay with a system that doesn't let gear change according to spec. What we are not okay with, is a system, in which a randomly chosen portion of your gear does, and another doesn't.

Weapons, I understand. Trinkets I understand. The former are iconic and should be hard to get (weapons are the sweetcakes among the rewards), the latter have specific proc mechanics.

BUT RINGS? CLOAKS? What the...they are as specific as a helmet or bracer, so why don't they change? It simply makes no sense, logically. And I am saying that as a rogue main, who isn't even affected by the new system (all rogue specs use the same main stats).

[creamo42]

Pretty sure you could play resto/balance if the set bonuses change. Or feral/guardian. If you still need to farm another set of PvP gear then that sorta does defeat the purpose of the feature, at least for us PvP scum druid players.

[Imnick]

The fact that you don't raid is irrelevant because some people still do, so the itemisation has to cover it.
Rings and Cloaks I have already explained: If they changed with stats, then they would potentially be items that literally everyone in your group would want. That would be too much competition, and cause strife. It would be a bad idea.

As a rogue main, you would be upset if 19 other people were in front of you for getting your best in slot ring.

It's pretty simple.

[The Kao]

I wasn't happy with the way itemization worked for hybrids before and by the looks of it I won't be happy in Wod either. It's a half asses feature since it doesn't accomplish what it's supposedly trying to achieve. That's why I still won't be making my druid my main and play a pure class in Wod too.

It's fair trade actually. You have lots of benefits from playing a hybrid above a pure in terms of flexibility and choice of role. What you pay for that is that you need extra items for less than half the slots in WoD (down from all slots...). This is very well an intended mechanic. Expecting Blizzard to remove one part of the trade without changing the other substantially is kinda naive really, and shows little understanding for the design choices that were made here in our favor.

But you did see that this drives you to a pure class. Which is also intended. Not all classes and choices are meant for everyone, and this is where Blizzard actually succeeds in designing meaningful choice.

[Deleted]

The fact that you don't raid is irrelevant because some people still do, so the itemisation has to cover it.

Erm...raiding is quite essentially the ONLY thing I do in this game, so where did you get your first sentence from?

Rings and Cloaks I have already explained: If they changed with stats, then they would potentially be items that literally everyone in your group would want.

1) Secondary stats don't change, and they are big-hitters for the specs, so for example an assassination rogue would most probably not waste his dkp on a crit+haste ring.
2) The same is true for all items, to a lesser extend, but still. 3 classes and 3 roles will compete for every plate item.

As a rogue main, you would be upset if 19 other people were in front of you for getting your best in slot ring.

No, I would not, since I understand the concept of gearing up my raid, not my person.

[Imnick]

The first sentence was for someone else, who said "I don't raid. That's not what I'm thinking about here. I'm thinking about Pvp."
I am aware that secondary stats don't change, but that still means several items would be desirable to almost anyone.
The same is not true for other items, because they have armour classes. That significantly limits the people who will roll on them, cuts them to at least a third if not a quarter depending on your raid composition.

The fact that you'd be fine with never getting your best ring is very noble of you! It wouldn't be a popular sentiment though, and it is sensible that Blizzard have sidestepped that.

[Deleted]

The reason why necks, cloaks, rings and trinkets don't change upon changing specs is because it it those slots that will be able to have the specific stats that benefit only healers or tanks like bonus armor and spirit. So basically most of your gear will just be universal (10 slots), while the tankiness or healiness of will be condensed to those remaining 6 slots instead of being spread over your entire gear.

The intention of this is to make gearing for multiple specs easier.

So why not just make everything change upon swapping roles? Basically there are three main reasons:
- Blizzard still wants you to have kind of a main spec.
- Having those slots (its the one that have no armor class) universal would for example make all the players fight for one necklace.
- Having hybrids completely able to freely switch roles while at the same time doing competitive DPS would render pure dps classes obsolete. You would have classes that require the same amount of gear than other classes, but not only perform just as good at dealing damage, but are also able to freely switch roles at any given time. In other words: If that happened, blizzard would re-invent the hybrid-tax and make hybrids worse damage dealers than the pure classes.

[Deleted]

The first sentence was for someone else, who said "I don't raid. That's not what I'm thinking about here. I'm thinking about Pvp."

A problem easily avoided by the use of quotes.

I am aware that secondary stats don't change, but that still means several items would be desirable to almost anyone.
The same is not true for other items, because they have armour classes. That significantly limits the people who will roll on them, cuts them to at least a third if not a quarter depending on your raid composition.

Correction: It significantly limits it, COMPARED TO an item everyone would want. Each item that drops, will still be desired by more people than it is now. And Blizzard is okay with that.

The fact that you'd be fine with never getting your best ring is very noble of you! It wouldn't be a popular sentiment though, and it is sensible that Blizzard have sidestepped that.

Who says I am never getting my BiS? ^^ It just doesn't make sense to throw everthing at the same guy, so he can look great in recount, while overall raid dps suffer.

[Imnick]

Each item that drops will be desired by more people than it is now (except cloth items, which will be just as desired), but no item will be as desired as a ring, cloak, or necklace which could be equipped by every single spec in the game.
That is the balance they are striking.

[Deleted]

Each item that drops will be desired by more people than it is now (except cloth items, which will be just as desired), but no item will be as desired as a ring, cloak, or necklace which could be equipped by every single spec in the game.
That is the balance they are striking.

Except if rings were changing along with the rest of the gear, there would be no useless drops any more. Its always cool to have 5 rogues/ferals/hunters waiting for the agility ring, and the boss refuses to drop anything but the damn int-ring, that is already being handed as off-off-spec loot to protpallys.

Less unuseable loot = less stress on the raid, and counters the heightened "desireability" of any item ^^

Tough I agree, I am talking from my vantage point in an organised raid. In PuGs, it would probably be hell.

[Deleted]

can you apply different transmogs to each spec with these items or is it one global thing still ?

[Deleted]

So why not just make everything change upon swapping roles? Basically there are three main reasons:
- Blizzard still wants you to have kind of a main spec.
- Having those slots (its the one that have no armor class) universal would for example make all the players fight for one necklace.
- Having hybrids completely able to freely switch roles while at the same time doing competitive DPS would render pure dps classes obsolete. You would have classes that require the same amount of gear than other classes, but not only perform just as good at dealing damage, but are also able to freely switch roles at any given time. In other words: If that happened, blizzard would re-invent the hybrid-tax and make hybrids worse damage dealers than the pure classes.

None of this applies to Pvp. You can have a main spec as a death knight or a mage, but you can still easily swap to another spec with ease. That's not possible as a paladin or druid for example. You don't need to "fight" for an item in Pvp, you earn it.

Also there' no need for any hybrid tax, it's just a question what classes people enjoy to play. No one switches their rogue to a druid just because druids can also heal with a different spec. Not to mention that your situation is also already possible if someone just has grinded their way to having gear for all their specs.

It's just a question equality.

[Imnick]

If you can run out of people who want an int ring you're definitely going to run out of people who want cloth shoulderpads :P
It wouldn't remove "useless loot" at all, it already hasn't done that.